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gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Please define exactly what you mean by "space domination."

not a military domination, of course (the "space" is too big also for an 1.3 billion peoples country!) but a commercial and technological domination (like China already has in computers, etc.)
also, they don't need to build a big rocket to "dominate the space" since they can (simply) build and launch 30+ rockets (with 25 mT payload each) at the price of ONE AresV to "dominate" the space "market"

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

Commodore

Member

From: Upstate NY, USA

Registered: 2004-07-25

Posts: 1,021

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

also, they don't need to build a big rocket to "dominate the space" since they can (simply) build and launch 30+ rockets (with 25 mT payload each) at the price of ONE AresV to "dominate" the space "market"

You mean like the Shuttle? That doesn't seem to be working all that well now does it?

China has awesome potenital. But its got at least 50 years of getting its own affairs in order to reach it.

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"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...You mean like the Shuttle?

like the Shuttle and the Ares-I but at 1/10th their price
that means... 250 mT launched at the same price of an Ares-I...

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

RedStreak

Banned

From: Illinois

Registered: 2006-05-12

Posts: 541

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...You mean like the Shuttle?

like the Shuttle and the Ares-I but at 1/10th their price
that means... 250 mT launched at the same price of an Ares-I...

Its funny how when people say 1/10th price it ends up ballooning to more like 20/10ths of the original price...

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...Its funny how when people say 1/10th price it ends up ballooning to more like 20/10ths of the original price...

look at all ready available rocket prices... from India, Europe, USA, Russia... you will discover that ALL costs less the (espected) Ares-I and AresV prices

every (present and future) rocket is "low priced" if compared with them (and China is only the #1 specialist in "low price")

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

Commodore

Member

From: Upstate NY, USA

Registered: 2004-07-25

Posts: 1,021

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...Its funny how when people say 1/10th price it ends up ballooning to more like 20/10ths of the original price...

look at all ready available rocket prices... from India, Europe, USA, Russia... you will discover that ALL costs less the (espected) Ares-I and AresV prices

every (present and future) rocket is "low priced" if compared with them (and China is only the #1 specialist in "low price")

Ok, lets say, for the sake of argument, the US tried to buy launches from other countries. What do you think will happen to the price?

If your looking for hints, see what the Russians are charging for ISS crew transfers.

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"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...the US tried to buy launches from other countries. What do you think will happen to the price? If your looking for hints, see what the Russians are charging for ISS crew transfers.

I suggest to use the Ariane5 to launch the CEV only because it's ready available, but my first suggestion is to save money building the new rockets with cheaper parts like the standard SRB.
About Soyuz prices... $15M per seat is a very low price! (when NASA will use the CEV the cost-per-seat will be up to 10 times this figure!)

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

GCNRevenger

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From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Ariane-V is no more built to launch capsules than Delta-IV HLV, which would take almost as much money to modify and make ready than Ares-I. Furthermore, even if you did, it is unlikely that it would be responsive enough just like the Delta. Whatever rocket is used, it should have high probability of being able to launch within a few weeks.

That Russia is charging the US for Soyuz seats at all is abhorrant to me, and shows just how little good faith the ISS project has garnerd with them. Even at that cost, I bet Russia is making several million dollars in profit from it.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

RedStreak

Banned

From: Illinois

Registered: 2006-05-12

Posts: 541

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Ariane-V is no more built to launch capsules than Delta-IV HLV, which would take almost as much money to modify and make ready than Ares-I.

That Russia is charging the US for Soyuz seats at all is abhorrant to me, and shows just how little good faith the ISS project has garnerd with them. Even at that cost, I bet Russia is making several million dollars in profit from it.

Good points on both GCNR.  Gaetanomarano, if the Ariane-V can be modified, it'll be a project ESA will be doing on its own just like the forthcoming ATV.  It will take time as GCNR is trying to explain...but if ESA can pull it off, more power to them.

The USA can't put complete trust into another country to support a launch vehicle - we need one we can exclusively fund, construct, and launch.  International partnership is optional, not required.  This was a point Zuberin made in Mars Direct and one that the failure of the ISS has blatantly pointed out.

Again, the only option regarding international involvement worth considering is just making the systems compatable - in short just able to dock with one another.  This might be easier to convience with ESA, but Russia and China with their ripped-off-from-Russia hardware may not be so quick.  The Iron curtian may have fallen, but there are times where pieces of its fabric continue to get in the way of things.

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Even more then that, international cooperation must not be the only way to make VSE suceed, we have to be able to get to the Moon and Mars with no foreign help.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Ariane-V is no more built to launch capsules than Delta-IV HLV...

whichever ready available rocket NASA will use to launch the Orion, the time and money saving will be in the range of 3-5 billion$ and 3-5 years
and, dont forget that the high Ares-I development time will delay all future projects: +5 years the first moon landing, +5 years the first lunar outpost, +5 years the first Mars mission, etc.

...bet Russia is making several million dollars in profit from it.

$15M for a Soyuz seat is under its real cost and Russia doesn't need to make money with the Soyuz since they receive a flood of billion$$$ (every year!) from oil and methane

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[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

RedStreak

Banned

From: Illinois

Registered: 2006-05-12

Posts: 541

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

$15M for a Soyuz seat is under its real cost and Russia doesn't need to make money with the Soyuz since they receive a flood of billion$$$ (every year!) from oil and methane

...not when their space agency gets a mere fraction of it.  Don't confuse gross national income with funding for a specific agency - the amount ur thinking of is divided across a whole board of agencies.

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...the only way to make VSE suceed...

only the FASTER way...
about Mars... I don't think a single country will have the full money to accomplish that missions (not even USA)

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

.................

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[url=http://www.gaetanomarano.it]gaetanomarano.it[/url]
[url=http://www.ghostnasa.com]ghostNASA.com[/url]

gaetanomarano

Member

From: Italy

Registered: 2006-05-06

Posts: 701

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

...not when their space agency gets a mere fraction of it...

despite the "weight" of the russian Ruble is not like the Dollar and Euro, it is fully integrated in the world's currencies and Russia has a true capitalist economy (many think "too much capitalist"...) so, I don't believe they need to sell Soyuz seats to pay public employees salaries

RedStreak

Banned

From: Illinois

Registered: 2006-05-12

Posts: 541

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

This was from my CEV/Orion post but since talk of the Ares I is mentioned I figured to add it here:

SpaceNut wrote:
Following NASA's announcement, Northrop said its team would now focus on winning the production contract for the Orion launcher Ares I's upper stage. That contract is expected to be placed in 2007.

One typical schedule-buster--the engine--may have been mitigated by Lockheed Martin's selection of a modified space shuttle orbital maneuvering system (OMS) engine generating 7,500 lb. thrust as the main propulsion system for the four-part Orion vehicle.

After the CEV capsule I'd be rating these two components for the CEV/Ares I as the next-most critical. If they aren't making use of the overly-complicated SSME and plan to use hypergolic fuels then the OMS engine doesn't sound like a bad choice. So long as the engine meets thrust, weight, and performance requirements I won't complain.

I suspect among the CLV elements the upper stage might prove to be the trickiest since it will essentially be a new booster stage. The lower SRB-derived stage at least has the SRB for a reference (5 or 4 segments or not) - I don't think either the Centaur or the STS ET will compare effectively with this stage. If Northrop wants to try it I earnestly hope they can do a great job - Boeing would be my next guess but Lockheed again may win out since they have managed the Atlas and Centaurs themselves

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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Constellation Program: America's Fleet of Next-Generation Launch VehiclesThe Ares I Crew Launch Vehicle

The second or upper stage — a wholly new element — is propelled by a J-2X main engine fueled with liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. The J-2X is an evolved variation of two historic predecessors: the powerful J-2 upper-stage engine that propelled the Apollo-era Saturn 1B and Saturn V rockets to the moon and the J-2S, a simplified version of the J-2 developed and flight-tested in the early 1970s but never flown.

During the first two-and-a-half minutes of flight, the first stage booster powers the vehicle to an altitude of about 200,000 feet and a speed of Mach 6.1. After its propellant is spent, the reusable booster separates and the upper stage’s J-2X engine ignites and powers the crew vehicle to an altitude of about 63 miles. Then, the upper stage separates and the Crew Exploration Vehicle’s service module propulsion system completes the trip to a circular orbit 185 miles above Earth.

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

In a recent Space Show interview with Tim Pickens (Spaceship One propulsion lead) said that work at MSFC had now improved the J-2X thrust to over 300k lbf. Good news for the US and the Ares V EDS.

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[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

If they can squeeze a little more specific impulse out of it, perhaps TheStick will wind up lifting nearly 25MT after all. Perhaps a few more tonnes out of Ares-V too.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

ATK, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne announce today their bid for the US procurement contract:

ATK is responsible for the Ares I first stage hardware, which includes the interface and separation with the upper stage. Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne is responsible for the liquid-fuel J-2x engine and related interfaces with the main propulsion system of the Ares I upper stage. And Lockheed Martin is providing the avionics for the early Ares I -1 test flight -- and is a recognized industry expert on large cryogenic tanks that are essential to Ares I success.

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[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

In an edited interview from 29 August 2006 posted at NASASpaceflight.com,  Danny Davis, MSFC manager of the US development discussed the J-2X engine:

We are planning for a 294klbf engine at 448 sec Isp (minimum) / 452 sec (nominal) for the later lunar missions. This could come in the form of a 274klbf capability initially for LEO missions with a later modification for 294klbf or possibly just go directly to 294klbf - design and developmental testing will determine the final approach in the next year.
...
Our current requirement is to deliver the Orion to a -30x100 nmi injection orbit (at either 28.5 or 51.6 deg inc). The performance capability is approximately 55klbm.
...
Our System Requirements Review is scheduled for January 2007.

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[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

GCNRevenger

Member

From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Wow! 448sec is a major improvement over the original J-2, and puts it on the same efficiency end as SSME or RL-10. If thats why its taking a while to build, then its well worth the wait.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

What bothers me the most about the build is the constant contract awarding for different sections of the total vehicle. No wonder there is so much delay to get us back into the game. With this method of ship design and build we will be adding another delay for going to the moon with the CALV developement.

As noted before the upper stage is still up for dibs and the team of Alliant, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney or this one want to go after this contract because they expect to reduce the project's costs and better integrate the spacecraft's middle section with the rest of the launch vehicle. The three companies have developed a complementary relationship, leveraging their strong experience and capabilities on NASA Human Space Flight programs.

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

What bothers me the most about the build is the constant contract awarding for different sections of the total vehicle. No wonder there is so much delay to get us back into the game. With this method of ship design and build we will be adding another delay for going to the moon with the CALV developement.

All major development projects work like this, no one company has the complete technology or makes all the components for a complex system.

Check out your PC and see how many different companies have built the components inside.  Dell or whoever would have specified and integrated them in the final product, but each one would have been procured by a separate contract.

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[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,431

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

Here is another of the contracts that have been awarded.

NASA Awards Thermal Protection Contract for Orion Spacecraft to Boeing

The present Phase II contract with Boeing is a continuation of an earlier Phase I NASA effort that evaluated phenolic impregnated carbon ablator (PICA), as well as four other candidate materials using extensive testing and analysis. Boeing has been selected to provide PICA, a proprietary material manufactured by its subcontractor, Fiber Materials Inc. of Biddeford, Maine, for continued testing and evaluation.