What do you think of this?

Palomar · 2002-12-19 13:46:13

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ...on_dc_5

--Cindy

AltToWar · 2002-12-19 14:02:23

I know the premise is homeland security, but I would wager the only thing this will accomplish is Fear and Intimidation.

I expect that this is just the tip of the iceberg. If the war with Iraq turns into a war with the middle ease, expect a reoccurance of the POW camps we had of Japaneese americans in WWII.

We as the american public like to believe that we are ths shining bastion of human rights. We like to think the horrable things that happen to people happen somewhere else. What we seem to forget is that our freedom and civil liberties are not going to just dissappear immediately, but erode over time.

We as human beings are only as free as the least free among us. If it can happen to one of us, it can happen to all of us. Don't wait till they come for you or those you love to learn that lesson.

Palomar · 2002-12-19 14:21:29

I know the premise is homeland security, but I would wager the only thing this will accomplish is Fear and Intimidation.
I expect that this is just the tip of the iceberg. If the war with Iraq turns into a war with the middle ease, expect a reoccurance of the POW camps we had of Japaneese americans in WWII.
We as the american public like to believe that we are ths shining bastion of human rights. We like to think the horrable things that happen to people happen somewhere else. What we seem to forget is that our freedom and civil liberties are not going to just dissappear immediately, but erode over time.
We as human beings are only as free as the least free among us. If it can happen to one of us, it can happen to all of us. Don't wait till they come for you or those you love to learn that lesson.

*Silly as it might sound, I'm actually shocked this has happened. ::pinches self::

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-19 14:30:40

I would comment, but since Phobos and Shaun would come in here criticizing my comments as though I'm defending totalitarianism (even though my comments would be completely against the very act), I think my effort is best spent not saying anything at all.

Damn shame, though.

soph · 2002-12-19 17:25:31

I wish people would realize that no country allows non-citizens full civil rights. it is ridiculous for the US to be demonized for punishing people who violated a law.

its bad enough that so many people use many of the benefits given by the US without paying taxes...lets not criticize the US's overly-friendly immigrant policies without bringing up the ways that america bends over backwards to protect legal rights.

AltToWar · 2002-12-19 22:25:40

There is no crueler tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of law and in the name of justice. CHARLES-LOUIS de SECONDAT, BARON de MONTESQUIEU (1689-1755), The Spirit of the Laws, 1748.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-19 23:01:51

I couldn't have said it better, soph. Can I buy you a drink?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-19 23:22:25

I don't think the INS is justified in going after people whose visas are delayed because of the inefficiency of the overseeing bureaucracy. It's common knowledge that students who come here for several years often graduate after their visas expire. Why? Because the INS is so slow to renew, and well, learning waits for no one.

I think AltToWar puts it best. This is just the Bush admin going after the most liberal state. It's sort of a slap in the face, really. A lot of people will be deported, their lives will be ruined, and so on. It's all in a days work.

AltToWar · 2002-12-19 23:51:19

I couldn't have said it better, soph. Can I buy you a drink?

Of Milk?

soph · 2002-12-20 05:56:17

if they had brought proof they had sought visas, they would probably be legally immune to detention.

Palomar · 2002-12-20 08:43:24

There is no crueler tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of law and in the name of justice. CHARLES-LOUIS de SECONDAT, BARON de MONTESQUIEU (1689-1755), The Spirit of the Laws, 1748.

*Montesquieu! I've read some of his material and he is, of course, included in my "Age of Voltaire" mailing list. I plan to read his "Persian Letters" sometime soon.

You know, it's strange: I expected this story to be splashed all over TV news, the various times I checked it... you know, raging debates, angry protestors, the whole bit. Nothing. I saw absolutely -nothing- about this matter on TV news.

Hmmmmm.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-20 09:46:11

That surprises you Cindy? This is the same news media that didn't report on Lott's gaffe until a week after they occured.

Palomar · 2002-12-20 10:25:54

That surprises you Cindy? This is the same news media that didn't report on Lott's gaffe until a week after they occured.

*I was being a bit sarcastic.

You know, another "funny" thing is that I've not yet heard of this sort of policy being implemented against Mexicans here on Visas. I'm -not- talking about Border Control seizures of illegal immigrants; I'm talking about Mexican nationals here in the U.S. on expired [or current] Visas. In fact, shortly before the 9/11 attacks, Bush and Vincente Fox were discussing mass naturalization of thousands of Mexicans in America; the same topic arose again a few months ago.

Is the INS only cracking down on persons with expired Visas of mid-Eastern descent? Hmmmmm. If so, it couldn't possibly be that such folks are the immigrant minority [whereas Mexicans are the immigrant majority]...right?

--Cindy

AltToWar · 2002-12-20 10:31:55

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?ty … ID=1939069

AltToWar · 2002-12-20 10:44:47

if they had brought proof they had sought visas, they would probably be legally immune to detention.

Keep telling yourself that rosco.

1: The immigration process is an over-worked, backed up process.

Sometimes you have paperwork sent in, but that paperwork had not been processed before your current green card goes up. It is routine for immigrants to wait in limbo until the beurocracy catches up.

Meanwhile these arab-americans have familys and jobs and friends.

2: Arab Americans are scared.

They are scared that some jug-headed red-neck will throw bricks at their house or that someone wil beat them up in the streets.

They are scared of the Government. They are scared that dispite all the mosque visits by the president, that there might be some anti-arab sentiments within the government.

They went to these meetings even though their paperwork had not been processed because they trust the government to understand, and they dont want to be associated with terrorists in any way shape or form.

3: Their human rights are being violated

I wish people would realize that no country allows non-citizens full civil rights. it is ridiculous for the US to be demonized for punishing people who violated a law.

These people were stripped naked, given prison jump suits with no socks, underware, or shoes. Were given no blankets and packed into a overcrowded concrete cell with no beds, and have been there for a few days.

I dont believe anyone should be treated in such a way.
I believe these people came honestly in good faith when asked to stand up and do thweir part in the war on terrorism, and were stripped of their dignity and rights as human beings.

AltToWar · 2002-12-20 11:41:57

"Immigration officials acknowledged Wednesday that many of those taken into custody this week have status-adjustment applications pending that have not yet been acted on. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … ...452.DTL

People doing their best to comply with the law and become Americans. Arrested, stripped naked, asked questions like "How often do you go to chuch" and "list all the people within your family" thrown in a cold, overcrowed cell with no beds.

But they are Arabs, and all arabs are probably terrorists, right? Arabs are somthing less than human, and they dont diserve to be treated with dignity. We have the right to arrest, strip, and imprison people who are doing their absolute best to comply with the laws we have put in place. Tough shit, thems the breaks.

soph · 2002-12-20 11:57:40

youre arguments are way off.

if a jew had blown up the towers, would it not be fair to focus more on jews in airport security checks? Im jewish, at least partially, and i see nothing wrong with that. yet in this country, we must pander to the criminals, by making likely suspects happy.

if you think arabs are treated badly here, take a look around the world. and i dont think the government would create a lawsuit incentive, given our overly lucrative court system. i doubt they were asked religious questions beyond what religion they were.

clark · 2002-12-20 11:58:50

The land of the free and the home of the brave...

Nothing like "detaining" someone based on the color of their skin, or the country of their origin.

It's called "probable cause".

Nothing like jailing people for violation of obscure and archaic beauractratic technacalities.

It's called "fair" and "equitable".

My country disgusts me.

A nation whose history is painted in the blood of immigrants, legal and illegal alike. A nation whose foundation is laid, and maintained, by the ideal of opportunity and a chance for a better life. A nation which shows no wisdom fromt he lessons of our darker pasts.

Our leaders have failed and the people have failed.

soph · 2002-12-20 12:02:10

its funny how people who like to wield the law in some situations forget it in others. why? because we feel bad for them? if they were germans, or russians, or mexicans, or whatever, i would feel no differently.

mexicans are detained every day for illegal immigrancy. wheres this righteous rage against those immigration policies? no, its because a few people want to exploit a situation to make our government look bad. yes, there are other ways to go about it...but they still broke the law, cut and dry. stop ignoring that.

clark · 2002-12-20 12:13:20

Ah, so we should enforce all laws equally then, lest we "forget" the law and it's importance.

ZERO tolerance for violation of speed saftey laws.
ZERo tolerance for violation of jay-walking laws.
ZERO tolerance for violation of vagrancy laws.
ZERO tolerance for violation of noise ordances.
ZERo tolerance for violation of any law, regulation, city, county, state, prefecture, territory, statute, in exsistence.

teh mexicans beign detained is wrong. What is happenign now is wrong. All of this is wrong.

Don't you get it?

Yes, laws are good.
No, not all laws are good.

Sometimes something is right, even if it is against the "law".
Sometimes something is wrong, even if it is the law.

It used to be helping a slave escape was "wrong".
It used to be that disobeying a superior's order was "wrong".

Use your brain and get a clue.

Palomar · 2002-12-20 12:13:41

A nation whose history is painted in the blood of immigrants, legal and illegal alike. A nation whose foundation is laid, and maintained, by the ideal of opportunity and a chance for a better life.

*In reading the article and thinking about this, I sure couldn't help but think of my paternal grandfather, immigrating from [the former] Czechoslovakia in the first decade of the 20th century. I'm a 2nd-generation U.S. citizen, paternally speaking. Kind of puts things into sharper perspective, and a bit closer to home.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2002-12-20 12:20:37

soph writes:

I wish people would realize that no country allows non-citizens full civil rights. it is ridiculous for the US to be demonized for punishing people who violated a law.

Hmmm. . . I believe John Ashcroft has often said similar things. However, if I recall my US history our Constitution and ALL of our laws were established to accomplish a much larger goal:

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men,

Contrary to the view of Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia, for example, our "rights" as US citizens do NOT originate with our laws or our Constitution - - rather our laws exist to better safeguard and secure rights given to us by a higher power.

What God hath given, John Ashcroft cannot *legitimately* take away. . .

When we US-ians act contrary to the higher principles that informed the founding of this nation we betray everything that America is supposed to stand for. America ceases to be America if we - as a society - come to accept and approve of the inhuman treatment of people without due process of law and fundamental fairness.

soph · 2002-12-20 13:40:52

im not talking about natural rights. im talking about the rights given to taxpayers...room and board among them, education, etc.

My grandparents immigrated from germany. somehow they managed to do it legally, and were american citizens within a few years.

clark · 2002-12-20 13:49:33

legal immigrants, those that receive visas pay into the social system.

Illegal immigrants cannot pay into the social system becuase WE do not let them.

If everyone that worked was given a tax id number this would be a non-issue.

the people being arrested and detained are the ones paying into the system- illegal immigrants are not coming forwars, the legal ones are.

My god, think.

soph · 2002-12-20 14:01:07

clark, you need to learn that speaking as if the other person is stupid for holding that view, doesnt make you right.

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