The Martian Chronicals

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-17 13:39:51

Suppose the Mars of Ray Bradbury existed in an alternate history. What if the Martian Canals did exist and the atmosphere of the planet was breathable for humans and the climate was tolerable if somewhat harsh at times? But the mass and gravity of the planet remains the same. What would have had to have happened in the past to have made Mars this way? Just as an exercise in counterfactual speculation.

First question is what would Mars have to look like from a distance to have a breathable atmosphere and liquid water with sufficent greenhouse gases to keep the planet surface warm enought for liquid water to exist? Would Percival Lowell see what he imagined he saw, or would he see a bit more?

SRAM · 2006-08-17 23:16:43

How many millions of years ago would it take to make the SUN much more active than it is today?

It is evident that MARS once WAS and DID have a vast and thriving occupation.

Those in denial are playing scientist, trying to look intellectual, whilst having the evidence shoved up their nose.

SRAM

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-18 08:37:17

Warm Mars with the Sun, Cook the Earth!

SRAM · 2006-08-18 10:12:39

Warm Mars with the Sun, Cook the Earth!

As Venus is the Earth once was.

As the Earth is, MARS once was.

(the earth, being shrouded in total cloud cover, had some protection)

(3billionyearsisalongtime) 8)

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-18 22:37:07

Warm Mars with the Sun, Cook the Earth!
As Venus is the Earth once was.
As the Earth is, MARS once was.
(the earth, being shrouded in total cloud cover, had some protection)
(3billionyearsisalongtime) 8)

The greenhouse effect would have to be greater on Mars than it is on Earth for both planets to be habitable. If Mars has a 1-bar atmosphere or greater, you'd have to stack it up higher under Martian gravity than you would on Earth, all that extra air mass would have a greater greenhouse effect than it would on Earth, that would amke such a hypothetical Mars warmer than would an Earth-sized World at Martian distance. Harry Turtledove once wrote a novel about a hypothetical substitute for Mars in the form of a planet that was slightly larger than Earth, he described an icy world covered with glaciers or a planetary Antartica of sorts. A terraformed Mars would be warmer than this.

In terms of a Novel, how can you explain how Mars might have been already Terraformed when Earth astronomers first looked at it? You can be creative in this answer.

One possibility is that it was terraformed by aliens from another star system, either for themselves or for some other inscrutible reason. Perhaps the aliens originate on a Mars-sized satellite of a gas giant, and the tidal forces were sufficient to keep the geology of this moon active and the atmosphere thick. Now as the aliens traveled the stars, they found that such arrangements were uncommon, and the planets most suitable for life were Earth-sized and therefore unsuitable for them as they were used to lesser gravity. The visited Earth and found an intelligent race living their during the stone age, but the planet was not suitable because the gravity was too high for them. Mars had the right gravity, but it was dead, so the aliens used their considerable resources and technology to terraform Mars and they settled the planet. After a while their civilization grew decandent, they no longer maintained their technology as they once did, and Mars began to die, in a heroic last ditch effort they dug canals prior to their own descent into savagery. If you want an Edgar Rice Burrows type of Mars, you could say they brought over some humans from Earth to be their pets or something like that. Of course they need to feed their pets, so they brought some other Earth life and plants so they could raise them on Mars and feed their pet humans with. Well something went wrong with the alien's global society, they descended into savagery, while the humans on Mars evolved a little and grew more intelligent and civilized as Mars dried out.

So what do you think, is this alternate history scientifically plausible?

Rxke · 2006-08-19 00:52:33

Hmmmm... Aaaaaaah... No.

Detailed mapping operations have showed that the most recent hydro-geological (for want of a better word) features are really old. So if there was liquid water in volumes on mars, it was eons ago.

there are a gazillion of craters in the 'riverbeds' etc, they don't get there in a hundred years, but in aaaages of cosmic bombardment.

Planets don't change their 'faces' in terms of decades, it takes thousands, millions of years (geological timeframes)

SRAM · 2006-08-19 01:28:08

There are many unknowns about the conditions that were in effect BILLIONS of years ago.

Perhaps the local sun was much more intense in its solar radiation?

It may be blond faith but I believe that Mars was a water world three billion years ago. Because of its small size gradually conditions changed. Attempts to head off the inevitable climate changes would have only slowed down the process of losing atmosphere and water.

I believe (religiously or mythically) that a cataclysmic event brought about the destruction of Mars whilst there was still a thriving civilization, although in decline.

SRAM

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-19 07:57:59

Hmmmm... Aaaaaaah... No.
Detailed mapping operations have showed that the most recent hydro-geological (for want of a better word) features are really old. So if there was liquid water in volumes on mars, it was eons ago.
there are a gazillion of craters in the 'riverbeds' etc, they don't get there in a hundred years, but in aaaages of cosmic bombardment.
Planets don't change their 'faces' in terms of decades, it takes thousands, millions of years (geological timeframes)

I'm talking about a hypothetical alternate history here that nevertheless adheres to the laws of physics. If history was different, detailed mapping operations would have showed something different from what they historically did show, that is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying this is true. If I was going to write about terraforming Mars, it would be easier to talk about in a what if situation as if it already happened in a work of fiction. Having human characters ten centuries in the future having recognizable names and cultural references would be quite a stretch. It would be easier to imagine contemporary astronauts exploring a Terraformed Mars, that to discuss the adventures of "Blip" and "Bleep" in the fantastic world of 3006 AD, where nanotechnology does everything for them, and terraformed Mars is an emenently civilized place lacking entirely the elements of danger and excitement that make for good reading. With a Martian World that is already terraformed by the time human probes first explore it, you have an element of mystery.

Rxke · 2006-08-19 10:07:52

Ah, ok, sorry, SRAM's errr... observations threw me of a little bit I guess...

So back to your intial question:

First question is what would Mars have to look like from a distance to have a breathable atmosphere and liquid water with sufficent greenhouse gases to keep the planet surface warm enought for liquid water to exist? Would Percival Lowell see what he imagined he saw, or would he see a bit more?

Depending how long and how intensive it had been terraformed, you'd see a less ochre tint. and more clouds, patches or even large expanses of blue (water) and a significantly bigger icecaps, probably...
For Percival seeing things that are really there, the canals would've got to be huuuuuuuuuge.

For aliens terraforming Mars (assuming they're quite advanced etc...) lots of icy comets or asteroids to add water; GE microbial life from earth or plain 'alien' life from their planet, to start producing biomass, prepare the barren regolith to a semblance of 'soil' and a more oxy rich atmosphere (oh and reducing the CO[tex:aa87f018e8]_2[/tex:aa87f018e8] atmosphere... Mars being also approx 24hrs planet, you could argue they bring higher lifeforms from Earth, because that's one thing less to worry about, biological cycle etc....

Edit: oh, and of course von neuman selfreproducing factories spewing out supergreenhouse gasses on a big scale, heehee!

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-19 12:59:12

Not bad, and assuming the Aliens didn't interfere with Earth too much and all other things being equal, history proceeds apace, except the early astrononers making different sketches in their notebooks, not appreciating their significance. Sir Edmond Halley never discovers his comet. Lots of speculation about the not-so-Red Planet. Edgar Rice Burrows writes a different story. Probes are sent to Venus, and then Mars. Humanhind makes its first steps on the Moon, but the shuttle doesn't get built. There is no Mars society as such is not needed. Immediately after Apollo a new space race begins between the USA and the USSR. The canals on Mars and the Boreal Ocean, and Hellas Sea are unmistakable signs of intelligence, radio contact is attempted but no response is received. No one wastes time building shuttles. Instead Saturn Rockets are utilized to lift components of an interplanetary spaceship into Orbit. The Russians meanwhile try to perfect their heavy lift launcher and rebuild the launch pad that their disasterous moon rocket exploded on. It seems that civilization on Mars is taken to be older than that on Earth, whatever is there is bound to be valuable in the competition between the superpowers so the race is on.

Rxke · 2006-08-19 13:13:59

... And then it quickly and horrifyingly turns out Mars still has a remnant of a biosphere, and of course all living 'survivor' bacteria and maybe insects and some hardy rodents, descendants from Earthly immigrants, are survivors simply because they're so good at killing eachother for the scant leftover biomass. Survival of the most vicious and insidious...

Yummie Earthlings, with biological defences adapted to a much more gentle planet are then a snack of choice for these survivors.

Explorers on Mars all of a sudden realise they're living on a battlefield from your worst nightmare: the whole planet is a biological weapon, you have to sterilize everything you use, but these buggers are hardy...

Cue flesh eating bacteria, gangrene on steroids, cockroaches that eat through rock and are themselves carriers of a plethora of virulent, poisonous hosts etc... :twisted:

You wake up and see a dimple on you cheek and panic clenches your throat like a vise... Did the guys that sterilized artefact X do a thourough enough job?

Are the seals withstanding the onslaught of the harsh environment outside?

... Is Michael a Russian mole turned suicidal saboteur?

Is this paranoia normal? What's that smell?

SRAM · 2006-08-19 16:07:41

Inside of Mars it is not a hostile environment .

It is a great place to hide out from space probes and surface crawlers.

ALL of the planets are semi-hollow.

GOD made them that way.

SRAM

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-19 17:36:52

... And then it quickly and horrifyingly turns out Mars still has a remnant of a biosphere, and of course all living 'survivor' bacteria and maybe insects and some hardy rodents, descendants from Earthly immigrants, are survivors simply because they're so good at killing eachother for the scant leftover biomass. Survival of the most vicious and insidious...
Yummie Earthlings, with biological defences adapted to a much more gentle planet are then a snack of choice for these survivors.
Explorers on Mars all of a sudden realise they're living on a battlefield from your worst nightmare: the whole planet is a biological weapon, you have to sterilize everything you use, but these buggers are hardy...
Cue flesh eating bacteria, gangrene on steroids, cockroaches that eat through rock and are themselves carriers of a plethora of virulent, poisonous hosts etc... :twisted:
You wake up and see a dimple on you cheek and panic clenches your throat like a vise... Did the guys that sterilized artefact X do a thourough enough job?
Are the seals withstanding the onslaught of the harsh environment outside?
... Is Michael a Russian mole turned suicidal saboteur?
Is this paranoia normal? What's that smell?

Who the heck is Michael? What is this blather?

I suppose you believe humans are the only beings in the Universe. Why can't you folks talk about aliens with a straight face? I know there are UFO nuts who think aliens are dwarfish white humanoids with fat heads that fly around in spinning frizbee space ships, but I'm not one of those. I'm merely suggesting that we talk about something that could of happened but didn't.

If you land on an alien planet, you are not going to encounter animals that specialize in eating humans. I'm really not interested in reproducing pulp science fiction. Pulp Science Fiction often considered a planet Mars with all those things you suggest, but that is all garbage. What I was considering was taking only one premise, the question of what if Mars had complex life on it? All those green fat-headed martians with antenni is just crap, but alien civilizations are not, they can happen and are not outside the realm of possibility. I don't think Mars could have had a thick atmosphere with complex life on it without intelligent intervention of some kind, so the question really is one of terraforming.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-19 17:41:06

Inside of Mars it is not a hostile environment .
It is a great place to hide out from space probes and surface crawlers.
ALL of the planets are semi-hollow.
GOD made them that way.
SRAM

I'm really not into X-Files, secret alien spaceships and the like. if you think planets are hollow, that is your theory not mine. A lot of people have a serious disconnect when someone mentions aliens.

SRAM · 2006-08-19 19:19:24

Inside of Mars it is not a hostile environment .
It is a great place to hide out from space probes and surface crawlers.
ALL of the planets are semi-hollow.
GOD made them that way.
SRAM
I'm really not into X-Files, secret alien spaceships and the like. if you think planets are hollow, that is your theory not mine. A lot of people have a serious disconnect when someone mentions aliens.

No doubt you are also an atheist.

Those who do not believe in GOD also (usually) do not believe in aliens.

Angels and demons are ALIENS, Mr Athiest.

(believe in THE LORD JESUS)

(ok delete this post)

(delete my subscription)

(delete life)

(no more replies to this terror forming maniac)

out

SRAM

Rxke · 2006-08-20 00:49:36

I was not thinking about bug-eyed aliens, but (rather 'pulpishly' for fun) just was thinking about what could happen (go wrong) if you transport Earth-stock life to another planet and let it evolve unchecked. The aliens introduced it, but left after awhile, terraforming efforts were not complete, biosystems crash, environment gets harsher, more radiation again, less food, bigger struggle to survive for living creatures, so they evolve into a more opportunistic kind. Mars indignious life would do ok, because they evolved there, so they learned to develop countermeasures etc.

An Earthling landing there on the other hand, could be in for a nasty surprize.

Not Human eating life, per se but eating life overall. That's like when the Europeans came to America and could wipe out the natives by simply shaking hands or giving out blankets (containing germs that evolved differently on another continent) Europeans could shrug off the minor disease, but Natives not, for them it was deadly. They did not evolve counter-measures.

And no I don't think humans are the only evolved race in the galaxies.

Belinda · 2006-08-20 04:10:24

Tom Kalbfus writes:

I don't think Mars could have had a thick atmosphere with complex life on it without intelligent intervention of some kind, so the question really is one of terraforming.

I see a plot loose end here. Why would your alien travellers, having come such an immense distance, have gone to the trouble of terraforming Mars when there was an already habitable planet nearby?

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-20 08:09:01

Tom Kalbfus writes:
I don't think Mars could have had a thick atmosphere with complex life on it without intelligent intervention of some kind, so the question really is one of terraforming.
I see a plot loose end here. Why would your alien travellers, having come such an immense distance, have gone to the trouble of terraforming Mars when there was an already habitable planet nearby?

The Earth was not habitable for them, they could breath the air, but the gravity was three times what they were used to and they would have to wear exoskeletons all the time in order to walk on the surface of Earth, they were more comfortable living under domes on Mars and later terraforming the place. They probably established a base on Earth's Moon as well, and the Apollo missions would have probably discovered it, if it wasn't known about before then. The base was sure to have been big, as they would have needed to visit Earth quite a few times to get the organisms they needed to transplant on Mars. No doubt the Apollo astronauts would have found some artifacts on the Moon, they probably don't work after sitting about one million years on the Moon however, and the astronauts wouldn't know how to use them if they did. Mostly it was radiation that did them in and many thousands of years of use by the aliens that wore them out. what's left on the moon is pretty much garbage and junk.

The aliens weren't looking specifically for Mars or Earth, they were just going from star to star looking for a specific type of planet. Mars fitted their profile although its atmosphere was insignificant. Most of the inhabitants of the starship were in a state of cryonic preservation of biostasis, they could just wait in there until the planet Mars was completely terraformed to their specifications by robots and a few people revived early to direct the process. The Earth was a useful resource in terraforming Mars, but was an unsatisfactory destination due to its high gravity. Alot of Earth life adapted to Terraformed Mars just fine however including some protohumans who were brought over as pets.

Past a certain point the aliens grew overly dependent on their technology, they did not reproduce at the rate they once did, and some of them decided to upload into machines, but the machines were vulnerable as their biological bodies were not, some event, maybe a nearby supernove explosion, maybe some electronic virus or some other such thing incapacitated their machines and killed the uploaded aliens. The biological aliens were fewer in number and they lost the ability to fix or build more of their machines. Mars was terraformed by this time. The aliens prefered a hotter climate that what humans were used to so at first the protohumans lived near the pole of Mars. Over the next one million years the protohumans evoved into a species that was comperable to homo sapiens in intelligence as Mars grew more arid, grew cooler, and some atmosphere was lost. The alien life forms gave way as they were not used to dealing with freezing temperatures and the transplaneted and genetically modified Earthlife took over the planet. Humans moved from the poles closer to the equator as Mars cooled and shed its atmosphere. By the time civilization developed on Earth Mars was still a habitable place, much less so for the aliens that terraformed it, more so for the Earth life forms that adapted to the changing conditions. A few aliens hung on, a few remain in cyropreservation or biostasis.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-20 22:25:56

I was not thinking about bug-eyed aliens, but (rather 'pulpishly' for fun) just was thinking about what could happen (go wrong) if you transport Earth-stock life to another planet and let it evolve unchecked. The aliens introduced it, but left after awhile, terraforming efforts were not complete, biosystems crash, environment gets harsher, more radiation again, less food, bigger struggle to survive for living creatures, so they evolve into a more opportunistic kind. Mars indignious life would do ok, because they evolved there, so they learned to develop countermeasures etc.
An Earthling landing there on the other hand, could be in for a nasty surprize.
Not Human eating life, per se but eating life overall. That's like when the Europeans came to America and could wipe out the natives by simply shaking hands or giving out blankets (containing germs that evolved differently on another continent) Europeans could shrug off the minor disease, but Natives not, for them it was deadly. They did not evolve counter-measures.
And no I don't think humans are the only evolved race in the galaxies.

A lethal disease would kill the whole crew off straight away, and they wouldn't live long enough for the next launch window back to Earth, their would be no "Andromeda Strain" as their bodies would remain on Mars, and theirs would probably be the last human mission to go there. I think it rather undramatic if the heroes of our story don't stand a chance, and they are simply doomed and die. There is no way our intreped explorers can bring a whole hospital with them either. if they contract some lethal disease, they are all alone and their is no one to help them, so they die on Mars.

I had more in mind challenges the heroes are capable of dealing with in a realistic situation.

Take the classic story A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burrow, so what if you wanted to change this Planetary Romance into hard science fiction?

Mars is not the way E.R. Burrows describes it in his book, but how close could it have been? I think ten centuries in the future is just as much fantasy for us as an alternate reality where history was different.

So how do you create a world that is as close as we can get to Barsoom while maintaining a Hard science fiction flavor?

First their is no teleportation.

John Carter is not a Immortal Civil War Veteran who never grows old.

John Carter is instead a NASA Astronaut on a Mars mission in the 21st century. Not our 21st century, but that of an alternate reality where history diverged from our own on Mars around 1 million years ago and where our historical history stayed on track until sometime in the Early 20th century when people realized the canals on Mars weren't fake or some optical illusion, probes confirmed their existance, a northern Boreal Ocean is also discovered and the atmosphere is comfirmed to be a similar mixture to that on Earth.

Ok, John Carter is one in a crew of 6 or 7 astronauts that land a Mars hab somewhere. The gross features of real Mars persist, but they are overlaid with a biosphere, the craters are eroded in the southern highlands, the smaller ones are probably erased, the larger ones have smooth lips.

Then their are the canals. As you said before, the canals would have to be very wide to be visible through Lowell's telescope on Earth, about how wide would you say? 20 miles perhaps? Is that too much or too little. If one stood on the shore of one of the canals, would one be able to see the other side or would it be over the horizon? What sort of canals would they have to be, taking the real topography of Mars into account? Their would be no canals in the Boreal ocean for instance, but leading from it into the southern highlands their would be. Now what would the water level of the canals be, all at sea level? To do that an awlful lot of rock would have to be excavated all the way down to the zero datum or whatever the sea level of this terraformed Mars is at.

All that rock would have to go somewhere, so perhaps their would be chains of artifical mountains made of excavated rubble running alongside these sea level canals. If you can terraform a planet, digging a planet wide system of canals might not seem like much work. the seas and the canal water would be salty of course. Otherwise you need rain water and ground water to fill the canals, either they are very long and very straight rivers that run into the Boreal Ocean or else their is a system of locks that need to be mantained to facilitate shipping across the planet.

We're assuming the Mars terraformers are mostly gone and are no longer maintaining the planet, so things will just have to "coast" for one million years until humans from Earth can get around to exploring this planet. Sea level locks are low maintainence since the ocean water from the Boreal ocean simply fills them. If the canals are very wide, then water will evaporate from their surfaces and perhaps condense along the straight ridges or artifical mountains running alongside the canals. The mountains would have to be far enough back so that the runoff doesn't silt up the canals over a period of one million years, there has to be something left for Lowell to see.

Would these canals serve a purpose?
I think they would carry ocean water over to large shallow evaporation ponds in the southern hemisphere so as to hydrate the atmosphere and provide more moisture to facilitate precipitation and grow plants. That water would of course run off back into the canals and into the Boreal ocean.

Also we'd have a whole new branch of the human family Homo Marinerianis. the protohumans brought over by the aliens evolved into homo sapien's equal, these are the "red martians" in other words, the aliens are the "green martians", they stand about 9 feet tall and their muscles and skeletons aren't capable of supporting their weight under Earth's gravity. I don't think Homo Marinerianis would look quite the same as we do, they'd probably be adapted to Mars' lesser gravity too, but perhaps their powerful Earth-evolved muscles could be used to some evolutionary advantage. I don't know if they'd necessarily evolve into giants just because of the low gravity, maybe that can take advantage of their ability to jump up high instead.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2006-08-17 13:39:51

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#2 2006-08-17 23:16:43

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#3 2006-08-18 08:37:17

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#4 2006-08-18 10:12:39

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#5 2006-08-18 22:37:07

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#6 2006-08-19 00:52:33

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#7 2006-08-19 01:28:08

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#8 2006-08-19 07:57:59

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#9 2006-08-19 10:07:52

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#10 2006-08-19 12:59:12

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#11 2006-08-19 13:13:59

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#12 2006-08-19 16:07:41

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#13 2006-08-19 17:36:52

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#14 2006-08-19 17:41:06

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#15 2006-08-19 19:19:24

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#16 2006-08-20 00:49:36

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#17 2006-08-20 04:10:24

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#18 2006-08-20 08:09:01

Re: The Martian Chronicals

#19 2006-08-20 22:25:56

Re: The Martian Chronicals

Board footer