Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking

Stormrage · 2006-08-05 18:08:25

I was someway through it until i noticed it was from Honest Reporting. I didn't want to watch anything from an Orthodox Jewish group. Has they would naturally be biased.
Also the Middle East Media Research Institute did put me off slighly. They did after all have "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel"
That's why I mentioned http://www.memritv.org/
Analysis' might be skewed, but knowledge can be very useful, just watching the clips alone will suggest at the bare minimum that it's not what we'd like to think. Why doesn't the western media call out these middle eastern states for publishing anything anti-person on the networks (often on state sanctioned programming, etc).

I could just weasel out and say freedom of speech but we all know that's not the case in Middle East .

The reason is the keep the population happy. Regimes like the Assads in Syria need to keep their people happy. They can brutally crush revolts if they want but it is easier for then not to. So they give their people scapegoat to vent their anger on. Which of course is Israel. Since Israel has links to "The West" those nations get involved involuntarly.

Btw i found a good article why Hezbollah are so popular in Lebanon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world … r=homepage

Here is part of it

The group is at once highly decentralized and extremely organized. Mr. Awali, whose job as a guard pays $170 a month, far lower wages than average, ran out of money for food shortly after his second daughter was born. He mentioned this to one of his neighbors, and days later, people with bags of groceries showed up at his tiny one-room apartment. ......
But it was the health insurance, when Ms. Haidar was facing a difficult pregnancy, that saved the family. They applied for and received the insurance by submitting photographs and filling out paperwork. Someone from Hezbollah — he did not identify himself — came to inspect their apartment, and ask about their finances, checking their application.
They were issued a medical card that they can use in any hospital in Lebanon, Mr. Awali said. The $1,500 needed to pay for Ms. Haidar’s Caesarean section was now taken care of. Mr. Fayadh’s brother also is covered by the insurance, an alternative to state insurance that the group has made available to poor people for only about $10 a month.

Gennaro · 2006-08-12 18:38:28

What if I said that this war a proxy between modern Western civilization, and a loose collection of backwards extremist dictators who think their God tells them to conquer us?

Even though their God tells them so, at least in a way, I can only say it obviously isn't the case, and you know it. You're intelligent enough not be fooled by some fantasy worldview if you don't wish it. If you wish it, it's only because you want there to be 'good fights' to fight, so you can motivate a continuation of the martial virtues you believe in. Isn't that so, Cobra? If the Mideast wasn't a threat, you'd have to invent it.
Also, there is no risk Islam would ever conquer the west if we did not allow it. As it happens, they aren't doing it by force either.

What if I said that this conflict would be occuring if Isreal existed or not?

No. That is simply unimaginable. What would such a conflict be about? How would Muslims be supposed to fight it? Under what leadership? Why?

What I told you this was about the fundamental human question of where true faith comes from, within, or externally?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I think Europeans and Americans often speak past eachother when it comes to Palestine and the Mideast. It could be our perceptions have been formed by different ways of reporting.
If the US wants to entertain an activist line and use force in regards to Palestine, Islam, the Mideast and defending Israel, it is useful to know why you are fighting and what you are defending.

I think this documentary is rather illuminating, and I challenge everyone to watch it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 4384920696

John Creighton · 2006-08-12 22:17:41

If someone was firing rockets at my city I would want a response far more fierce then the Isreal’s did at the start of this war. Why must Isreal fight with hand tied behind it’s back because people sympathy for civilians who are caught in the cross fire of a country that treated terrorists like a legitimate army. Should we synthesize for all the NAZI’s who were forced into joining the army because of fear of going to a work camp. Should we have taken it easy on them? War is hell, the Hezbollah love death they love death and that’s what they got. Any Lebanese person that wants to sympathize with a group of terrorists and call them patriots should consider the reprocutions of an Israel that didn’t take it easy on them.

Stormrage · 2006-08-13 02:41:56

If someone was firing rockets at my city I would want a response far more fierce then the Isreal’s did at the start of this war. Why must Isreal fight with hand tied behind it’s back because people sympathy for civilians who are caught in the cross fire of a country that treated terrorists like a legitimate army. Should we synthesize for all the NAZI’s who were forced into joining the army because of fear of going to a work camp. Should we have taken it easy on them? War is hell, the Hezbollah love death they love death and that’s what they got. Any Lebanese person that wants to sympathize with a group of terrorists and call them patriots should consider the reprocutions of an Israel that didn’t take it easy on them.

If i believed your opinon was right mine would be something like this.

Israel killed 8 members of a family in Gaza beach and is now denying it did it. Even though the evidence is overwhelmingly point at it. Palestinians should go and kill israelis where they find them. I doesn't matter if they are civilians. They live in Israel so they deserve the punishment. Since IDF love to kill palestinians thats what the palestinians should give them.

Forget about the fact that not every IDF soldier was responsible for the death of the family. They should all be equally punished. Extrajudicially (is there any other kind? ). Any jew murder is just a casulity that can be ignored.

John Creighton · 2006-08-13 03:00:09

If someone was firing rockets at my city I would want a response far more fierce then the Isreal’s did at the start of this war. Why must Isreal fight with hand tied behind it’s back because people sympathy for civilians who are caught in the cross fire of a country that treated terrorists like a legitimate army. Should we synthesize for all the NAZI’s who were forced into joining the army because of fear of going to a work camp. Should we have taken it easy on them? War is hell, the Hezbollah love death they love death and that’s what they got. Any Lebanese person that wants to sympathize with a group of terrorists and call them patriots should consider the reprocutions of an Israel that didn’t take it easy on them.

If i believed your opinon was right mine would be something like this.

Israel killed 8 members of a family in Gaza beach and is now denying it did it. Even though the evidence is overwhelmingly point at it. Palestinians should go and kill israelis where they find them. I doesn't matter if they are civilians. They live in Israel so they deserve the punishment. Since IDF love to kill palestinians thats what the palestinians should give them.
Forget about the fact that not every IDF soldier was responsible for the death of the family. They should all be equally punished. Extrajudicially (is there any other kind? ). Any jew murder is just a casulity that can be ignored.

The problem with that attitude is Israel has bigger guns. Israeli even gave the Palestinians a piece of there already very small country in an area where it’s anti-Semitic neighbors what to see ever Israel driven into the sea. And despite this gesture of good will from the Israel the Palestinians continue their suicide attacks. Israel is being quite merciful given the circumstances and if they where half as bad as theorists made them out to be then the terrorists would no longer have any Arab states in the ears to recruit there suicide bombers from.

DonPanic · 2006-08-13 03:27:01

If someone was firing rockets at my city I would want a response far more fierce then the Isreal’s did at the start of this war. Why must Isreal fight with hand tied behind it’s back because people sympathy for civilians who are caught in the cross fire of a country that treated terrorists like a legitimate army. Should we synthesize for all the NAZI’s who were forced into joining the army because of fear of going to a work camp. Should we have taken it easy on them? War is hell, the Hezbollah love death they love death and that’s what they got. Any Lebanese person that wants to sympathize with a group of terrorists and call them patriots should consider the reprocutions of an Israel that didn’t take it easy on them.

Stop being that stupid! With this kind of a logic, US Air Forces should blast all muslim districts in british towns because some british born muslim citizens are engaged in terrorist movements acting at USA and that brit muslims generally support rather Bin Ladin than Bush. If you don't agree with that idea of bombing Britain because innocent british citizens should be among the victims and you agree with Israel deeply mad behaviour, I shall conclude either that your are unlogic* or that you are deeply a racist.

The facts are that Israel acts as a terrorist state when destroying all lebanese economic infrastructures and killing lebaneses. When retaliations are far more devastating for a couple of israeli soldiers kidnapped than when israelis civilians are victims of a blind terrorist attack, it means that actual israeli military leaders have lost any sense of measure.
As a result, Israel welds with a deep hate against jews a whole country that was divided , loosing any chance to leave in peace with its neighbours.
There was a time when Israelis could go skying in Lebannon safely in winter time.

Israeli even gave the Palestinians a piece of there already very small country in an area where it’s anti-Semitic neighbors what to see ever Israel driven into the sea

A piece of what ? They occupy territories that are not theirs since the 1967 war.
The former palestians authorities have recognised Israel and all jew colonisations in these territories since 1967 are illegal. The facts are that many jews and zionists still dream of a "Great Israel". Watch out, we know what a "Great Germany" dream ded to.

*For me, being unlogic is a deep sign of stupidity

John Creighton · 2006-08-13 04:08:42

Stop being that stupid! With this kind of a logic, US Air Forces should blast all muslim districts in british towns because british born muslim citizens are engaged in terrorist movements acting at USA and that brit muslims support rather Bin Ladin than Bush. If you don't agree with that idea of bombing Britain because innocent british citizens should be among the victims and you agree with Israel deeply mad behaviour, I shall conclude either that your are unlogic* or that you are deeply a racist.

How is this any kind of comparison? The US is not being constantly shelled by missiles from Britain and if it was the government of Britain would not side with a rouge militia group undertaking such actions. How is it racism to advocate responding to an act of war with over welling force. How else do you win? You don’t win a war with flowers. No wonder the Nazi’s took France so easy

The facts are that Israel acts as a terrorist state when destroying all lebanese economic infrastructures and killing lebaneses.

Oh yeah it is Israel that is making a battlefield out of civilian neighborhoods? If Hezbollah wanted to act like a serious army they would confront Israel head on instead of firing missiles from behind woman children and babies.

Israeli even gave the Palestinians a piece of there already very small country in an area where it’s anti-Semitic neighbors what to see ever Israel driven into the sea
A piece of what ? They occupy territories that are not theirs since the 1967 war.
The former palestians authorities have recognised Israel and all colonisations since 1967 are illegal. The facts are that many jews and zionists still dream of a "Great Israel". Watcht out, we know what a "Great Germany" dream ded.
*For me, being unlogic is a deep sign of stupidity

Israel did not provoke that war they were attacked because the anti-Semitic Arabs wanted to drive them into the sea. They held onto the land primarily for security reasons. If Egypt hadn’t of attacked Isreal back in 1967 there wouldn’t be a Palestinian problem.

DonPanic · 2006-08-13 04:53:17

How is this any kind of comparison? The US is not being constantly shelled by missiles from Britain and if it was the government of Britain would not side with a rouge militia group undertaking such actions.

Didn't GB harboured extremist mollahs which recruited for terrorism before 9/11 ?
Didn't extremists groups from GB plan to blast more planes over USA these late days ?

No wonder the Nazi’s took France so easy

That wasn't such an easy job, 90000 french soldiers fiercely paid their life for the stupidity of the commandment of the French-British allied forces which didn't suppose that Hitler would attack through neutral Belgium, if you want to remember History out of clichés. German army lost 1000 aircrafts that missed when Hitler launched the battle of England.

Oh yeah it is Israel that is making a battlefield out of civilian neighborhoods?

Yes indeed, by making live a whole population of Palestinians behind barbwires since 1967. The occupyers always call resistance terrorism.

Israel did not provoke that war they were attacked because the anti-Semitic Arabs wanted to drive them into the sea. They held onto the land primarily for security reasons. If Egypt hadn’t of attacked Isreal back in 1967 there wouldn’t be a Palestinian problem.

It's a fact that Nasser commited a Casus Belli, it's also a fact that Israel jumped over the Casus Belli to attack Syria and Jordan as well as Egypt.
Israelis conquered territories over Jordan that didn't attack Israel.
When I was in Israel in july 1967, from Eilat, it was possible to see jordanese army positions and tanks that didn't at any time attack Israel.
If Israel occupation of Sinaï was legal, Egypt being the agressor, occupation of territories seized from Jordan, a country which didn't attack Israel was illegal, that's why President De Gaulle condemned Israel as an agressor. That was a tough decision, France having been a close ally of Israel, had collaborate on Israel Nuke program, and was its main weapon supplier before that war. Arab air forces were smahed down thanks to Mirages III and french IR missiles, many arab tanks destroyed by french wire-guided missiles.
Under jordan administration, before 1967, the Holly places in Palestine where reachable by Jews, Christians ans Muslims.

Grypd · 2006-08-13 07:20:56

It's a fact that Nasser commited a Casus Belli, it's also a fact that Israel jumped over the Casus Belli to attack Syria and Jordan as well as Egypt.
Israelis conquered territories over Jordan that didn't attack Israel.
When I was in Israel in july 1967, from Eilat, it was possible to see jordanese army positions and tanks that didn't at any time attack Israel.
If Israel occupation of Sinaï was legal, Egypt being the agressor, occupation of territories seized from Jordan, a country which didn't attack Israel was illegal, that's why President De Gaulle condemned Israel as an agressor. That was a tough decision, France having been a close ally of Israel, had collaborate on Israel Nuke program, and was its main weapon supplier before that war. Arab air forces were smahed down thanks to Mirages III and french IR missiles, many arab tanks destroyed by french wire-guided missiles.
Under jordan administration, before 1967, the Holly places in Palestine where reachable by Jews, Christians ans Muslims.

If you are going to be casting blame best if you do it from a point of knowledge.

Actually the 1967 war was the direct result of actions by Syria and Jordan. It was they who by diverting the water of the Dan-Barias into the litani and into dams would have bled Israel dry of water. Israel was forced to bomb these works so that the water would not be cut off in 1965. There was also the actions of the PLO which where based in these countries. In 1967 they put a mine in front of a patrol and killed 3 soldiers and injured many others. Israel chased them in operation Shredder to the village of Es Samu and since the village had been abandoned before hand Israel simply flattened about 50 houses. King Hussein who had problems with public opinion started a general call up and there where exchanges of artillery. Syria also started to shell Israeli towns as well and also attacked with aircraft.

The UN peacekeeping forces withdrew as they where frankly useless.

Egypt started the main action of the 1967 war by blockading the straits of Tiran and banning Israeli ships. They also signed a treaty with Jordan and with Sudanes, Kuwaiti and Iraqi soldiers started to build up troops on both the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian borders with Israel.

Israel asked repeatedly that Jordan stay out of any trouble and Jordan ignored these calls. We now know that King Hussein could not as there was much political pressure from pan Arabic forces inside his country and he risked civil war if he ignored calls to attack Israel.

Israel did attack first but this was military necessity Jordan if it had been allowed to attack would have been able to split Israel in two very quickly. So The war happened and both Jordan, Syria and Egypt lost badly but a lot of this was to do with there own commitments elsewhere (a peacekeeping force in the Yemen).

And Frances actions in the war where simple they where one of the main suppliers to both side of munitions. They also where attempting real politik blocking of Britain and the USA. There is also the fact that France was attempting to get back into the graces of the Arab countries especially after the end of the Algerian occupation.

Stormrage · 2006-08-13 15:17:38

Oh yeah it is Israel that is making a battlefield out of civilian neighborhoods?

Yes yes and YES. They have done it since the 1978 attack on Lebanon. They turned West Beurit upside down and gave christians milita the arms and protection to massacre palestinains refugees.

If Hezbollah wanted to act like a serious army they would confront Israel head on instead of firing missiles from behind woman children and babies.

They are doing that. Who is destroyign Merkava tanks? Who is killing Israeli soldiers? Hezbollah ARE fighting in south lebanon face to face with Israelis. Thats why Israel hasn't had complete control of Southern Lebanon.

Btw What about Israel attacking fleeing families THEY WARNED TO LEAVE? What about the people killed in the christian sector? The water drill tanks attacked. What about trucker delevring aid to people in South Lebanon? Are they all secret Hezbollah war.

Israel did not provoke that war they were attacked because the anti-Semitic Arabs wanted to drive them into the sea.

Yes that compelete justifies the illegal war,the lives lost and the stolen territories. We can tell the palestinians that it was their fault for thinking such naugthy thought. After all is a group of people who have never visited Palestine before took over your land. Your ment to be happy.

All i can say about this conflict is. Thank god Israel got their ass kicked so hard. So much macho talk early. Being one of the best they couldn't even control a thin strip of land. Makes the US look legendary in Iraq.

John Creighton · 2006-08-13 17:52:48

The problem I see is how do you tell a civilian fleeing from a Hezbollah re-supply truck. If they have vehicles they should of left along time ago.

DonPanic · 2006-08-14 11:10:38

Actually the 1967 war was the direct result of actions by Syria and Jordan. It was they who by diverting the water of the Dan-Barias into the litani and into dams would have bled Israel dry of water. Israel was forced to bomb these works so that the water would not be cut off in 1965.

This is a discutable point, don't forget that waters have to flow down the river Jordan to feed up also its eastern bank shore where much Jordan populations lived

There was also the actions of the PLO which where based in these countries.

The so-called "terrorists" where still called feddayins. In the fronteer-sided kibboutz I did work in, located aside a desertic uncontrolled jordanese area far from any jordanese army position, they did call simply them gangsters because the "terrorist actions" were mainly sheeps and sometimes crop robberies.
This kibboutz was a "strategic"one, with trenches network and safe shelters because had the jordanese army the will to cut Israel apart, that was the place to launch an attack. Jordan as well as Egypt wanted to make much noise, but, in fact, were not ready for any war. The only serious enemy was Syria with which there were almost daily fighter planes dogfights.
Because at the end of my travel, I saw the movie "Six Days To Glory" showing how carefully Israel had planned its attacks, I came back home with the feeling that Israel had really wanted that war, some kind of a preventive one, and very suspicious about who were the bad guys in this conflict. Before I started, I was 100% convinced that Israel was the victim.

And Frances actions in the war where simple they where one of the main suppliers to both side of munitions.

No, sir, you're being unfair, USSR was quite enough to supply the Arab side with all the weapons it needed. France, as well as GB, was still too much upset by the 1956 Suez Brit-French expeditionnary corp failure against Nasser to side the Arabs by 1967,
and don't forget, France was blamed by the arab world because of the Algerian liberation war.

DonPanic · 2006-08-14 11:26:08

The problem I see is how do you tell a civilian fleeing from a Hezbollah re-supply truck. If they have vehicles they should of left along time ago.

Sure, cars leading full north far away from battlegrounds can only be some kind of hezbollah re-supply trucks...
FIRE !
Everybody knows that the lebanese cars have ALWAYS gazoline tanks filled up, haven't they?

Stormrage · 2006-08-16 00:10:49

The problem I see is how do you tell a civilian fleeing from a Hezbollah re-supply truck. If they have vehicles they should of left along time ago.

If the Israelis go to Christian neighbourhoods and destroy water drill equipment. What in gods name makes you think that cars driving away will escape? IAF attacked a press convoy even though they were told about it. They attacked and killed UN personnel even though they were warned 10 times. It would be by the grace of god if a lebanese civilian managed to escape unharmed.]

You know what the most f****d part of this is? Zionism is mainly supported by secular jews who use religon.

Here are orthodox jews protesting about Zionism not being judaism and a secular jew comes and gives them an earful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9 … ed&search=

Here orthodox jews are beaten up for protesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5qZu4yhOvE&NR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW20JGs9 … ed&search=

I forgot to add this image.

This rabbi got stabbed during the brutal attack.

And this boy escapes getting kicked by a adult guard.

So much for the "a safe haven for jews"

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-28 09:14:03

Why should we be allies with Israel?

I think a large part of it is a case of doing unto others as we would have others do unto us. The United States sticks with our allies because we would like to have allies. If we let ourselves be bought off with oil and other economic interests, then we deserve no allies.

What are the arguments against our alliance with Israel?
1) If we are allied with Israel, the Arabs will attack us.
2) If we are allies with Israel, the Arabs will withold selling oil to us.
3) If we are allies with Israel, the Arabs will be provoked into making terrorist attacks against us.

Seems to me, that alot of these reasons have something to do with us caving in to Arab bullying. Now I ask you this question:
Who makes a better ally, Israel or the Arab states?

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-28 09:30:48

Actually the 1967 war was the direct result of actions by Syria and Jordan. It was they who by diverting the water of the Dan-Barias into the litani and into dams would have bled Israel dry of water. Israel was forced to bomb these works so that the water would not be cut off in 1965.
This is a discutable point, don't forget that waters have to flow down the river Jordan to feed up also its eastern bank shore where much Jordan populations lived
There was also the actions of the PLO which where based in these countries.
The so-called "terrorists" where still called feddayins. In the fronteer-sided kibboutz I did work in, located aside a desertic uncontrolled jordanese area far from any jordanese army position, they did call simply them gangsters because the "terrorist actions" were mainly sheeps and sometimes crop robberies.
This kibboutz was a "strategic"one, with trenches network and safe shelters because had the jordanese army the will to cut Israel apart, that was the place to launch an attack. Jordan as well as Egypt wanted to make much noise, but, in fact, were not ready for any war. The only serious enemy was Syria with which there were almost daily fighter planes dogfights.
Because at the end of my travel, I saw the movie "Six Days To Glory" showing how carefully Israel had planned its attacks, I came back home with the feeling that Israel had really wanted that war, some kind of a preventive one, and very suspicious about who were the bad guys in this conflict. Before I started, I was 100% convinced that Israel was the victim.

That just goes to show you the power of propaganda. Make the victim seem like the aggressor and the aggressor seem like the victim. Do you think the loser in every conflict should always win? Germany was losing World War II, should we feel sorry for Germany because in the final year of the conflict it was out numbered and outgunned by the allies. Hey, they were ganging up on those "poor Germans", hey that's not fair! Maybe the Germans should win instead of lose!

What about the Japanese during World War II? It was just an Island country in the middle of the Pacific in 1945, we mostly sunk their navy and we were bombing their cities, wasn't that unfair that we were picking on a country that was smaller than we were, and wasn't it racist that were we attacking mostly Asians in the Pacific conflict? :twisted:

That was just a little sarcasm their, I don't really ask questions like that because I believe the Germans and the Japanses were the wronged party in WWII, but I hope I've made a point.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-08-28 15:10:46

Who makes a better ally, Israel or the Arab states?

Tough question here's another : who make a better buddy,
a cocaine junkie who flys an aircraft or drunken alcoholic who captains a large ship ?

I don't think you can compare Israel and a few rag-tag nut Arabs with the UK/French/Chinese/American/Russian position during WW2,
during world war 2 the Entire World was at War.

The Allies were fighting a powerful Axis of fascists they had a mighty fascist army that were sending million to gas chambers or conducting bio experiments on villages and killing pows.

The religious zealots from both the Jewish and Arab side had given the Middle East nothing but pain,
hezbollah and other kamikaze Arabs have a useless fighting force, they have had little funding, almost no technology ( Hitler's antique V2s are far better than any useless Arab device ), they want to kill as many people as possible but they are no match for Israel

Israel is no hero, a number of Arabs might still protest saying its state may not even be legit - imagine the USA winning their freedom from the British Empire but rather than forming a United States were only to then claim Paris/London/Rome as their Holyland because some old book said it to be so. They were given their jewish state but then became an aggressor have gone to war with every single one of their neighbors, their army have bombed even children's hospitals,
sharon was a war criminal and even a formal israeli inquiry found him responsible for massacres, they have even killed American aid workers.

I think part of the reason so many Arabs are anti-American is because of the United States unconditional support for Israel and the Jewish lobby in the US,
that's right I said the word 'Jew' - shock/horror !
After all the aid and money that is poured into this Middle East region people are still being murdered, perhaps we should just build a big wall around the middle east and let it go rotting back into the darkages

Commodore · 2006-08-28 21:05:07

What if I said that this war a proxy between modern Western civilization, and a loose collection of backwards extremist dictators who think their God tells them to conquer us?
Even though their God tells them so, at least in a way, I can only say it obviously isn't the case, and you know it. You're intelligent enough not be fooled by some fantasy worldview if you don't wish it. If you wish it, it's only because you want there to be 'good fights' to fight, so you can motivate a continuation of the martial virtues you believe in. Isn't that so, Cobra? If the Mideast wasn't a threat, you'd have to invent it.
Also, there is no risk Islam would ever conquer the west if we did not allow it. As it happens, they aren't doing it by force either.

Yeah, we had to invent some boogy men so we had some infidels to kill.

Why is it so hard to believe there actually are bad people out there? And I don't mean the stiff suit wearing white Christian men who try and take away your pot.

Actually, that was harsh. But if you can use sterotypes, so can I.

What if I said that this conflict would be occuring if Isreal existed or not?
No. That is simply unimaginable. What would such a conflict be about? How would Muslims be supposed to fight it? Under what leadership? Why?

You can learn a lot about your enemy by the company they keep. Take Osamas host, the Taliban. They banned everything they thought "too Western" because it might expose the people to something other than Islam. One of Osamas lifelong goals is to overthrow the House of Saud, the Royal family of Saudi Arabia. Why? Because when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 91, and threatened the Kingdom, his own flesh and blood turned to the West to save them, instead of his fighters who a few years before drove the Soviets out of Afganistan. All this crap, because some people who happened to not be Muslims saved his country from yet one more Arab madman. In Iran it's the same shiite, different country. The Shah was too western. Granted he was also a tad bit tyranical, and we backed him to combat the Russians. But you can hardly say the Iranian Revolution was launched to free the Iranian people. I could list offnearly every majority Muslim country, and they all have major issues with religious authorities trying to violently purge everything that introduces anything not uttered by a mullah. And even Europe is having issues with its minority populations.

And no, this problem did not start with Isreal. Believe it or not, Isreal has a 20% Arab Muslim population that lives with all the rights, freedoms and respondsibilies as the Jews.

What I told you this was about the fundamental human question of where true faith comes from, within, or externally?
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
I think Europeans and Americans often speak past eachother when it comes to Palestine and the Mideast. It could be our perceptions have been formed by different ways of reporting.
If the US wants to entertain an activist line and use force in regards to Palestine, Islam, the Mideast and defending Israel, it is useful to know why you are fighting and what you are defending.

Its quite simple. In the west, religion is between the individual and the Big Man upstairs, or downstairs, or nowhere. You have complete control of your spiritual destiny. In Muslim countries, religious authorities rule life, either socially, culturally, govermentally, or all of the above. Instead of freedom of religion, its freedom from sin. And there is only one reason for it, to perserve the power of those religious authoritys. And yes, extremists in all religions have done that in the past, and continue to try to do that, in every country, but most of them don't resort to mass murder anymore.

Now, most of the world seems more than willing to let that slide as long as they get their oil. Only that isn't working anymore. They seem to think that disengagement will keep them happy. But if it isn't Western oil workers "sinning up the place", it will be Isreal. If it isn't Isreal, it will be Darfur, or Kashmire, or Indonesia, Chechnya, or Bosnia, or the streets of Paris. The only way it will end is if we prove to them that they can not make themselves free from sin by blowing themselves up next to it. And the good news is most Muslims don't actually believe that. But far to many do. And it doesn't take many to make a big mess of things.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-08-29 07:39:49

You can learn a lot about your enemy by the company they keep. Take Osamas host, the Taliban. They banned everything they thought "too Western" because it might expose the people to something other than Islam. One of Osamas lifelong goals is to overthrow the House of Saud, the Royal family of Saudi Arabia. Why? Because when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 91, and threatened the Kingdom, his own flesh and blood turned to the West to save them, instead of his fighters who a few years before drove the Soviets out of Afganistan. All this crap, because some people who happened to not be Muslims saved his country from yet one more Arab madman. In Iran it's the same shiite, different country. The Shah was too western. Granted he was also a tad bit tyranical, and we backed him to combat the Russians. But you can hardly say the Iranian Revolution was launched to free the Iranian people. I could list offnearly every majority Muslim country, and they all have major issues with religious authorities trying to violently purge everything that introduces anything not uttered by a mullah. And even Europe is having issues with its minority populations.

You're under the false assumption that the USA knows best, or West knows best and everyone around the globe wants to live in an American style Capitalist Democracy.
Not all people around the world would desire to live like those in the States, they have one of the highest levels of aids, drug problems, large gap between rich and poor, the USA has top levels of gun crime for a first world nation...et cetera

Some nations and people around the world prefer to have a Socialist/leftist state, live with a monarchy as figure head of state, use a non-Congressional system, or elected a single party state examples such as Singapore/Japan/Russia/Cuba/ Egypt/Taiwan/Vietnam
Take some of the Muslim world, you think they all want American style democracy or are they even mature enough to understand it and would they even use it ? Terrorist saw the heads off of innocent men and women? No protest. Terrorist blow up a night club in Bali ? No protest. Terrorist blow up a wedding reception in Israel ? No protest. Hundreds of school children are murdered, some raped before hand. No protest. Terror attack and hijack of 4 planes on 9/11, well, they actually danced in the streets for that one. ( get the picture ? this list could go on for a while.... ) But! Allah have mercy.... a few infidel Danes crank out a mildly a
musing cartoon here and there, and the crazy Muslims are on the war path?

Remember how the cartoon protestors screamed 'Freedom of Speech go to Hell' or call for suicidal bombings through London? it is impossible to bring democracy to these places, and is it any wonder there is so much crap in the world when a good chunk of the earth's population is offended by what is a silly cartoonist joke. There is no one-size-fits-all democracy and even if there were I doubt Islam and Democracy could so easily coexist

dicktice · 2006-08-29 09:38:15

What's your point, Yang? Now that you've pointed out the obvious things we face, do you have anything positive to contribute towards what we should be doing to prevent them from sabotaging possibly the only opportunity we'll ever have of populating space?

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-08-29 12:44:03

Write it off as a loss,
the Middle East venture has been nothing but a big failure...the U.N, USA, Italy, UK and so on such spend their time and money some place else where it won't waste their time and cost thousands upon thousands of lives.

There are planety of other good people that need help and money, people in poverty in South.America, victims of Katrina hurricane, thousands of family that are hurt after the Asia Tsunami
Yet all this time and effort goes into the Middle East maybe because of oil prices or perhaps due to America's jewish lobby, or because Israel is constantly bombing its neighbors and Arab zealots are keen on blowing themselves up.

Back to the space side of things -if the Chinese get to the Red planet first I hope they install a good system to govern our new colony and perhaps ban certain groups of people such as preventing religious crackpots from ever going near Mars.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-29 13:39:41

Who makes a better ally, Israel or the Arab states?
Tough question here's another : who make a better buddy,
a cocaine junkie who flys an aircraft or drunken alcoholic who captains a large ship ?
I don't think you can compare Israel and a few rag-tag nut Arabs with the UK/French/Chinese/American/Russian position during WW2,
during world war 2 the Entire World was at War.
The Allies were fighting a powerful Axis of fascists they had a mighty fascist army that were sending million to gas chambers or conducting bio experiments on villages and killing pows.
The religious zealots from both the Jewish and Arab side had given the Middle East nothing but pain,
hezbollah and other kamikaze Arabs have a useless fighting force, they have had little funding, almost no technology ( Hitler's antique V2s are far better than any useless Arab device ), they want to kill as many people as possible but they are no match for Israel
Israel is no hero, a number of Arabs might still protest saying its state may not even be legit - imagine the USA winning their freedom from the British Empire but rather than forming a United States were only to then claim Paris/London/Rome as their Holyland because some old book said it to be so. They were given their jewish state but then became an aggressor have gone to war with every single one of their neighbors, their army have bombed even children's hospitals,
sharon was a war criminal and even a formal israeli inquiry found him responsible for massacres, they have even killed American aid workers.

I think part of the reason so many Arabs are anti-American is because of the United States unconditional support for Israel and the Jewish lobby in the US,
that's right I said the word 'Jew' - shock/horror !
After all the aid and money that is poured into this Middle East region people are still being murdered, perhaps we should just build a big wall around the middle east and let it go rotting back into the darkages

That is cart before the horse, one of the reasons we support Israel is that the Arabs are so anti-American and the Israelis are not. Arabs have oil, Israel does not, the Arabs have embargoed the west before, they have taken hostages of Americans and murdered Americans, the Israelis have done no similar thing. The reason why Arabs hate jews so much is because the Arab governments have given them propaganda to distract them from wanting freedom, they need an eternal enemy to fight against, and the assumption being that once all the Jews are gone all their problems will be solved as well, and there is no way to prove this short of wiping out the Jews, so they keep on trying and because they have yet to succeed, no one in the Arab world will say they are wrong. The Germans had their eternal enemy too in the 1930s and 1940s, "it was all because of the Jews" they said, the Islamo-facists inherited this Ideology and gave it an Islamic cast.

The bottom question is simple, if we want allies, we have to be loyal to them, If we sell them out because their opponents have oil, then we will have no allies when we need them, this is a lesson the French have yet to learn.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-29 14:21:44

Yang Liwei Rocket wrote:

or call for suicidal bombings through London? it is impossible to bring democracy to these places, and is it any wonder there is so much crap in the world when a good chunk of the earth's population is offended by what is a silly cartoonist joke. There is no one-size-fits-all democracy and even if there were I doubt Islam and Democracy could so easily coexist
It is difficult to be allies with someone we can't coexist with, are you really surprised that we would side with Israel rather than side with the Arab states against Israel?
We stick by our allies because we want our allies to stick by us, if we sell them out to this group that is hostile to democracy because they got oil to sell, where does that really get us?
I'd rather be allies with Israel and pay more for oil. Israel at least is a democracy. If the arabs don't believe in democracy, in a sense they are also telling us that we should not listen to them, since only in a democracy do their opinions matter. If they say, "democracy is bad", translated it means, "Our opinions are bad, don't listen to us."

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