God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-18 16:08:26

Yes, we could find exceptions to the rule all day, but all it does is detract from the arguement.

To clarify some things, I would like to note that you can believe certains parts of some religions, but still belong to another.

For instance, I am protestant, but I believe in limbo and purgatory. I don't think God would put a Pagan or a very small child in hell if they never knew christianity. Once again, I accept this as my truth; therefore this is the only perspective I can speak from.

AltToWar · 2002-12-19 00:27:30

I study and practice Mysticism.

Often times it is nessicary for me to temporarily Believe somthing in order to get a required result. When I am in a rational state of mind, I have explinations for these things. When I am in a more associative state of mind, i have different explinations.

I think you are confusing Symbol with Truth.

Symbols are ways of communication and understanding. Symbols are Subjective.

We must use symbols when dealing with metaphisical matters because sometimes they represent concepts that are difficult to experience and explain.

The danger of symbols is that sometimes it is not the truth that is 'worshiped' but the symbols we use to discribe the truth. Sometimes the Truth is obscured by the Symbol we use to explain them. Sometimes people praise the Symbols more than the truths these symbols represent.

Some Symbol Sets are incompatable with others. You cannot mix Christianity with Islam without having some conflicts within the systems.

One Cannot use the symbols of christianity and islam at the same time without some confusion. BUT, it is not the doctrine and dogma of these religions that are worshipped, but the truths they contain. (or at least, it should not be) If one can accept that the doctrine and dogma are but the outer shells of the truth within, then one could except that both can be used to reach a desired end. Just not at the same time.

Echus_Chasma · 2002-12-19 00:44:45

Rather ironic, this thread just had 666 views.

clark · 2002-12-19 10:47:40

but by perceiving the madness, dont you inevitably become a part of the madness of perception that you claim to stand apart from?

Yes, and I admitted as much earlier. Yet I am trying not to give into the entire function of it. If I do as Cal suggests, and select one fundamental set of truths as the end all be all, I necessarily accept the lie of a self perceived delusion. I have no objective evidence, nor will I ever have any, that would validate or invalidate my truths/delusions. So I ask myself, why would I need to do as Cal suggests- to do as everyone else does?

The absence of faith in a set of fundamental truths denies me what precisely? Even looking at what Cal suggests, his version of belief is merely a tool to help guide him through life, and to compare the relative worth of individuals. It acts as a means to categorize people- those who go to heaven, those who go to hell, and those who go elsewhere.

Cal wrote:

I am trying to say, that you must pick one to reap the rewards. I am a christian, and because I have accepted this as a truth, I believe that everyone else has picked the wrong one, and that I will go to heaven when I die.

His views help him to consolidate the world a little bit more- to make it easier to understand cause and effect relationships and random actions. None of this means he is wrong, or that he must be correct. That's my whole point.

Now, if god exists, wouldn't god necessarily exist beyond our recognition? As such, if we are unable to even perceive, to recognize god, doesn't that call into question all of our assumptions? If we are unequipped to perceive god, does he exist in any meaningful way? Do rainbows exist in the universe of the blind?

If you can rationally accept that your truth may not be any more correct or any more incorrect than any other belief, why is their a need to choose?

Or if you prefer, slap a label on your beliefs and get along in the social pack? because that is what you are doing. Reinforcement of behavior through positive and negative social interaction as the basis of individual ego maintenance.

Cal, you are much younger than I. I have traveled your road, and it holds no answers for my questions. None of the belief systems I have encountered hold any answers. They are all a different perspective, but fundamentally the same. It's like choosing a specific flavor of ice cream- in the end, it's all ice cream. It doesn't matter, get it?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-19 13:49:27

Science is the only set of truths I accept. Everything else, religiously, simply goes to guide me morally and perhaps spur my imagination.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-22 16:13:06

Clark wrote:

If you can rationally accept that your truth may not be any more correct or any more incorrect than any other belief, why is their a need to choose?

I can't prove that my truth is any more correct than anyone elses, but I still know it is. It's called faith. I accept one truth over another out of nothing but a feeling and a hunch. It's called faith. I blindly throw my beliefs out on the table without anything to back them up with. It's called faith.

You don't have to choose one over the other; it's just the same as choosing not to believe anything at all.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-22 23:57:05

I can't prove that my truth is any more correct than anyone elses, but I still know it is.

Um, the only provable truth is science. Your truth is not truth at all. Faith can be about truths totally provable through the scientific process, but faith is usually about things which one cannot prove. Scientific faith is just laziness; if something is true within science, it can ultimately be proven true. But scientists usually take other scientists words for things, because it takes a lot of hard work to test every single theory.

You can't say the same for general, religious, faith. Religious faith can never be proven either way. It's really a silly thing, to be quite honest. Fighting over which deity is the ?real one? and so on.

Everyone has faith, not everyone has truth.

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:05:01

Truth is Beauty.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 00:05:09

Just because something isn't tangible doesn't mean it can't exist as a truth. I said I had adopted it as MY truth. I accept belief with no proven facts, and adopt it as MY truth.

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:11:26

There is what is Right,
There is what is Correct,
and there is what is True.

Rarely are all three the same.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 00:16:30

There is what is Right,
There is what is Correct,
and there is what is True.
Rarely are all three the same.

And I am 110% positive that my beliefs are where the 3 intersect.

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:29:28

There is what is Right,
There is what is Correct,
and there is what is True.
Rarely are all three the same.
And I am 110% positive that my beliefs are where the 3 intersect.

then you missed the point.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 00:31:18

and what point would that be, my mysticist aquaintence?

AltToWar · 2002-12-23 00:45:56

and what point would that be, my mysticist aquaintence?

thats for you to think about

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 12:36:23

I don't think I will. I'm enjoying the CHRISTmas season too much.

soph · 2002-12-23 12:37:22

did you know christ was born in march?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 13:15:01

Supposedly. Something about the shepherd not being out in winter. I find that hard to believe because Israel is in a Mediterranean climate.

I don't think Jesus would make a big fuss about when we celebrate his birth. I'm sure he has bigger fish to fry.

Palomar · 2002-12-23 14:24:30

I don't think I will. I'm enjoying the CHRISTmas season too much.

*Before it was Christmas -- *long* before -- it was the winter solstice celebration [return of the sun]. The tree, holly/ivy, red and green colors [decorations], wassailing, etc., are all PAGAN in origin. The Christian church fathers decided to officially celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ a few days after the winter solstice, to entice Pagans to convert to Christianity [when and if Pagans weren't being coerced into becoming Christians]. The rebirth of the sun [original holiday -- winter solstice] and the birth of the son [imposed holiday] -- see? Many historical scholars also believe Jesus Christ was born in the spring of the year...considering how cold it is in Israel in the winter, no shepherd in his right mind would be "out attending his flock by night" that time of the year, unless he wanted to get a severe case of frostbite.

This is all historical information, written by credentialed scholars.

As for the title of this thread, I'd like to refer to the last few lines of Voltaire's story _Micromegas_:

---

He promised to give them a rare book of philosophy, written in minute characters, for their special use, telling all that can be known of the ultimate essence of things, and he actually gave them the volume ere his departure. It was carried to Paris and laid before the Academy of Sciences; but when the old secretary came to open it, the pages were blank.

"Ah!" said he. "Just as I expected."

---

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 14:29:32

Once again, I'm sure Jesus won't mind not getting a birthday card from me. I don't really care about our holiday being historically accurate, the fact is that it is still a celebration of an important event, whether we celebrate it on time or not the fact is that we celebrate it.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-23 14:51:19

And yet, Christmas these days is more about commercialization than it is Christ... funny, that...

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 15:17:57

And yet, Christmas these days is more about commercialization than it is Christ... funny, that...

Because many non-christians still celebrate the holiday. Most of us go to church service tomorrow (Christmas Eve), while the heathen among us frantically head to MACY's to buy their last minute gifts.

Ever watched Charlie Brown Christmas Josh?

Preston · 2002-12-23 15:39:11

There is an article on space.com about the Christmas star http://www.space.com/spacewatch/star_be … 21220.html that also mentions the Flock Hypothesis. And it makes the claim that they celebrated it on Dec. 25 because that's the same date as a Roman celebration with gift giving and all, and they wanted to mesh the two celebrations so that it wouldn't look like they were celebrating Christ. Is this the same as the Pagan holiday Cindy mentioned?

Preston · 2002-12-23 15:40:42

I read that the holly/ivy thing is based on Christ's crown of thorns, and the red in it represents his beads of blood.

Palomar · 2002-12-23 19:18:28

I read that the holly/ivy thing is based on Christ's crown of thorns, and the red in it represents his beads of blood.

*Holly, ivy, and red as a part of the season's [winter solstice] colors originate from pagan customs which PRE-date Christ.

Red, to the pagans, symbolized female (menstrual blood) and green symbolized male (sexual virility). Intertwined, they symbolized life.

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-23 23:30:31

I still don't care. I am enjoying my christian and heathen holiday, and I really don't want to have to play Alt's silly games about guessing why I'm wrong, or thinking about Pagan menstrual fluid.

Shhhh! I'm trying to hear Jingle Bells on my transistor radio. What kind of Christmas songs do Pagans listen to? Oh... that's right... they don't have any.

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