What IS an astronaut?

Palomar · 2006-07-21 04:06:44

*Since my sig has generated more than one person's interest:

It's a response to Mr. Branson's assertion that his space tourist/passengers should be called "astronauts."

I disagree.

I've flown in airplanes as a passenger. Does that make me a pilot? No.

Astronauts were Neil Armstrong, James Lovell; the Gemini and Mercury guys too. Or current shuttle commanders. Computers might do a lot of it, but the Apollo astronauts did have to watch out for gimbal lock and did do hands-on stuff; they were seasoned and highly trained pilots before they became astronauts. There's a reason NASA hired trained, experienced hot-shot pilots for Mercury, Gemini and Apollo missions, right? Because some hands-on stuff/know-how was required. Like how James Lovell & Co. had to manually steer their craft after the explosion to keep it as close to the trajectory path as possible (get off trajectory and it's bye-bye), watched out closely to prevent the dreaded gimbal lock AND had to worry about the craft no longer rotating (overheating on sunward size/freezing up on the opposite side). Sure, these upcoming space tourists/passengers aren't going to and from the Moon, but they can't handle any aspect of the craft they will be in.

I don't care how many times William Shatner or Victoria Principal shell out their money to become space tourists/passengers (people who'd probably start bawling if they chipped a fingernail), but that's what they will be; tourists/passengers -- not astronauts.

Again: Does flying in an airplane as a passenger make you a pilot?

No.

No difference; don't call 'em "astronauts."

But of course celebs must have their egos stroked, so Branson will insist they be called "astronauts." What a lark. That's a word which should be reserved for the astronauts.

Dennis Tito was no Neil Armstrong. I don't want to see the word watered down to the point where "astronaut wings" can be earned via a gumball machine.

--Cindy

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-21 07:07:39

Gotcha there, though I am hesitant to label the non-pilot Shuttle/Moon/Mars crew members as "not astronauts."

Perhaps other possible definitions...:

-People who go up not for a pleasure cruise (or for tending people who are)
-People who go up for the betterment & inspiration for other people
-People who are not going up for personal or corporate mateiral profit
-People who go up for the preservation of our and other species of life

A few to think about

Rxke · 2006-07-21 07:24:57

I agree and disagre...

Astro- naut... From the Greek star... sailor...
so people that travel to space are astronauts. Historically most sailors couldn't singlehandedly 'pilot' a ship either... Russians call their cosmonauts cosmonauts once they are in space, in America you are called astronaut when you begin training, so it gets hazier stil...
You get your wings when you went to space, no questions asked how...

Do I fully agree everyone and his dog etting wings, no, not really, but I guess after tourist #1000 those wings will gradually lose their meaning, I'm pretty sure passengers of the early planes got a certificate too, when they more or less risked life and limb to fly, over the years the certificate stopped having any meaning...
When you fly a baloon, you still get a token certificate etc. But I doubt it calls you a balloononaut

And the whole being able to pilot your vehicule... I don't agree at all. Glenn didn't have to do much, on his predetermined suborbital hop, yet he is the most famous astronaut in American history... Of a shuttle crew, only part of the man and women aboard are pilots, and even the Apollo 13 crew got its instructions how and what to do from a group of specialists on the ground. If their radio's would've been down, they'd been dead. Just read the transcripts, they are dictated which knob to turn, what dial to watch, etc etc, you don't have to really know how to pilot your stuff to do that (though familiarity with the control panel would undoubtedly help)

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-21 08:03:12

The literal Greek definition is only marginally relevant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_wings

Even though NASA calls "astronauts" astronauts, there are different grades of astronauts' insignia, silver for completing training but gold for actual flight.

those wings will gradually lose their meaning

This is a bad thing. At least the FAA/DoT recognizes this and has authorized a different type of wings than real astronauts.

Rxke · 2006-07-21 08:06:04

Ugly green, I hope, as in :banknote green :twisted:

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-21 08:24:35

It is a rather lame insignia for the commercial flight, it says "commercial" right on the front, as well as the names of the aproving agencies.

clark · 2006-07-21 08:38:34

Hey, while we're at it:

Women who can't/don't give birth are not mothers. And really, shouldn't they be classified as some other type of 'woman'?

Same goes for men who can't naturally produce off spring. Adopting just isn't the same.

We can call the sterile, 'waste of space flesh bags'. Has a nice ring to it.

I say let them call themselves whatever they want. No skin off my nose (of course I don't actually have a nose, as I lost it in a horrible bottle rocket mishap, but that is another story- do you know what it is like going through life in fear of sneezing? Do you!?)

But I digress, on with the show.

Just remember, never call a golfer or a bowler an athelete. Any sport where you can drink and play means you are not an actual honest-to-goodness athelete.

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-21 09:02:19

Ah bitter, bitter clark...

Space is one of the few fronteirs where people who journey there could reasonably be called heros for something other than military, civil service (police, fire), or political change. Paying to go up on a joyride for fun isn't heroic, its just self-serving thrill-seeking. Its insulting to real heros and the rest of us to pretend that the two of these things are at all comperable, so joy-riders shouldn't be getting the same honors. Simple.

Palomar · 2006-07-21 10:03:35

Gotcha there, though I am hesitant to label the non-pilot Shuttle/Moon/Mars crew members as "not astronauts."
Perhaps other possible definitions...:
-People who go up not for a pleasure cruise (or for tending people who are)
-People who go up for the betterment & inspiration for other people
-People who are not going up for personal or corporate mateiral profit
-People who go up for the preservation of our and other species of life
A few to think about

*I agree there are a few gray areas in this.

But Principal or Shatner (if they do go) and Neil Armstrong, all "astronauts"?

Sure. And since I've flown on a couple of domestic airplane flights, I'm a pilot now. Guess I'll call American Airlines, ask when I should report for duty...

(Gosh, why didn't I think of this before?? We pilots make much better money than medical transcriptionists!)...

::edit::

GCN: Paying to go up on a joyride for fun isn't heroic, its just self-serving thrill-seeking. Its insulting to real heros and the rest of us to pretend that the two of these things are at all comperable, so joy-riders shouldn't be getting the same honors. Simple.

Agreed. Well said, GCN.

Rxke · 2006-07-21 10:27:21

-People who go up for the betterment & inspiration for other people

Mark Shuttleworth at least partially fits that bill. He partially did it to inspire South African (youth) and took experiments with him for no charge to the universities.
I said partially, part was of course thrill-seeking, but you don't tell me any 'real' astronaut applied to be one because spaceflight is boring They're all thrillseekers, in a way.

Paying to go up on a joyride for fun isn't heroic, its just self-serving thrill-seeking. Its insulting to real heros and the rest of us to pretend that the two of these things are at all comperable, so joy-riders shouldn't be getting the same honors. Simple.

Depends what you call a joyride. For a significant percentage of these tourists, it will be a lifelong aspiration, not a mere joyride. Imagine (forgot her name) the would-be female American astronaut hitching a ride, she wanted to be an astronaut all her life, but at the time women were simply not considered to be part of project mercury/gemini etc...

Would she be considered a mere thrillseekster or a belated astronaut in some ways?

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-21 10:34:18

If its just to fulfill -your- dream, and thats the only reason you are up there, then I wouldn't call that heroic enough to warrent the term "astronaut" despite how important it was to him/her.

I said partially, part was of course thrill-seeking

Ehhhh he still went up PRIMARILY for kicks though, a few little experiments or no.

dicktice · 2006-07-21 11:12:53

Once, we science-fiction readers accepted "Spaceman," but now I suppose "Spacer" would be the more acceptable term to denote a person able to survive in the vacuum of space, not to mention weightlessness, etc.

Same as a "sailor" who can survive at sea out of sight of land, gps or however navigated. Crews at sea are known as sailors, as well as Captain and Officers. Passengers are just that, but if they have job responsibilities they get titles like steward, carpenter, engineer, and therefore are sailors too.

Spaceship crews are composed of astronauts (or cosmonauts) as well as Commander and Pilot. Passengers are just that, but if they have job responsibilities they get titles like (designated responsibility) Specialist, and therefore astronauts too.

Austin Stanley · 2006-07-24 06:58:04

astronaut
n. A person trained to pilot, navigate, or otherwise participate as a crew member of a spacecraft.
[astro- + Greek nauts, sailor (from naus, ship; see nu- in Indo-European roots).]

I tend to agree. The astronaut == sailor analogy is probably the best one. Back in the age of sail many people travled by ship, but not everyone was a sailor. The distinction was that a sailor was someone who made his living traveling at sea, not mearly a passanger. By this definition, our rich tourist are not astronauts, because they certianly do not make a profession of space travel, and for the most part they do not participate as a crew member of the space craft. On the other hand, virtualy every non-tourist crew member does qualify, as they both make space travel a profession, AND function as a member of the crew. They are not passangers.

So I think no, traveling on a sub-orbital junket or whatever does not automaticly make you a astronaut any more than traveling on a ship makes you a salior, or a sub a submariner.

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-24 07:31:56

Better anyway... professional space-farer... though I would still like a distinction between for-profit, not-for-profit, and nationally-backed astronauts.

dicktice · 2006-07-26 18:43:46

GCNR: Would you mind elaborating on that a little bit?

clark · 2006-07-27 06:28:21

Note to all: every space 'tourist' that has gone up HAS been trained as a member of the crew. If something goes wrong, they have to know what to do.

Does anyone do any research anymore?

Grypd · 2006-07-27 17:16:52

Note to all: every space 'tourist' that has gone up HAS been trained as a member of the crew. If something goes wrong, they have to know what to do.
Does anyone do any research anymore?

But the future will be space tourists who are only along for the ride.

Im with GCN on this we will have a new term for the people who go to space for work and do work they will be spacers. The equivalent of our merchant mariners and will be licensed as such.

GCNRevenger · 2006-07-27 19:47:16

Note to all: every space 'tourist' that has gone up HAS been trained as a member of the crew. If something goes wrong, they have to know what to do.
Does anyone do any research anymore?

But they still went up for kicks, primarily. And I very much doubt they had much training beyond emergency stuff, like "put on suit helmet and stay out of Cosmonauts way" and "how to use zero gravity toilets."

If your profession is space travel, then you are an astronaut. If you go up for a joy ride, then you are a just a tourist.

Josh Cryer · 2006-08-01 17:29:58

As far as I understand they can't just "go up for kicks." They're utilized as the crew even when they pay the $20 million. Hell, as far as I understand, every single "tourist" has actually done some scientific research.

If you go on a cruise, you have a lot of people tending to your needs, and doing everything for you. Until space travel actually exists as a "tourist industry" then I would argue that yes, people going up are astronaughts. Unless someone tends to their every need and doesn't utilize them as crew.

GCNRevenger · 2006-08-02 06:43:24

Nonsense, they just did experiments because they wanted to, just to say that they did. That does not count. Just busy-work. Tourists are not professional space farers, and do not deserve the title that comes with it.

Josh Cryer · 2006-08-02 17:50:03

If you go on a cruise do you swab the decks? Wash the dishes?

There exist no "space tourist" industry as far as I am concerned. Not until we have hotels up there and people hired to, you know, do everything for you. And, you know, "touristy" things to, well, do. Floating around gets old after the first day or so. The rest of your time spent there is going to be helping out or otherwise occupying yourself with space station duties.

The reason they do the experiments is because it would be wasteful to go up there and not do anything. Staring out of a portal and floating around isn't worth $20 million. I believe one guy who went up actually more than paid for his trip by doing experiments that would've costed more than $20 million to set up. Can't remember who it was, but I was glad when I read that. I can find a link if necessary.

You're a sailor if you go on a ship and do a lot of sailor chores, like swabbing the decks or tying things up.

GCNRevenger · 2006-08-03 06:37:50

If you go on a crusie and swab decks just so you can say you are a crewman then no, you aren't a crewman.

The reason they go up and do experiments is so they can feel all astronaut-ie in a vain and hypocritical attempt to not be thought of as a tourist, perhaps even by themselves.

You are a sailor if you swab decks as your profession, you aren't a salor if you swab decks for people's opinions about you (perhaps even your opinion of yourself).

Palomar · 2006-08-03 07:17:28

so they can feel all astronaut-ie in a vain and hypocritical attempt to not be thought of as a tourist, perhaps even by themselves.

*Yep.

And of course the tourist companies have to stroke big egos; tell them "you're an astronaut" (instead of a mere tourist).

I've used a handheld camera to take home movies. Does that make me a film maker a la Steven Spielberg? Sure it does...not.

I know how to swim, am a good swimmer. Does that make me a gold-medal winning Olympian? Hardly.

If William Shatner becomes a space tourist he is NOT on the same level as Neil Armstrong.

I also find it interesting and amusing that the pro-space-tourist/privateer folks in this forum hardly, if ever, mention the next tourist aboard the ISS, etc.

Frankly it's sad seeing the majority (or so it seems) of the space exploration community gone overboard ga-ga for LEO-oriented space tourism. Ah well...fads.

Rxke · 2006-08-03 07:31:29

I also find it interesting and amusing that the pro-space-tourist/privateer folks in this forum hardly, if ever, mention the next tourist aboard the ISS, etc.

You mean the Gundam--fruitcake-guy? Probably because he'll prove to be a real obnoxious tourist, heh. (Sigh)

clark · 2006-08-03 10:20:50

What IS an astronaut?

I think the problem is that some seem to equate 'astronaut' with something intangible.

In its literal form, it is ANYONE who goes into space. If I say, that there is an 'astronaut'. You and you and you will all assume that the person is one who has visited space.

What the quibble here seems to be is the detail- how to refine this definition. Why? because we are finally realizing that the broad definition that defined astronaut no longer is as precise givent he range of people who meet the bare minimum definition.

So we have specialists, and tourists, and argument over who is what and why.

So you're all right, everyone one, both sides. Why? because anyone who goes into space is an astronaut. That is the basic meaning. If some want to stratify the defintion in order to better define and communicate an idea, more power to you. What you are saying is that there are different TYPES of astronauts.

Some are the classic hero's some here seem to associate with as the mold. Others are a new breed of researchers focused on the environment in space. And still others are ones who, for whatever personal reason (which most here share) want to go into space by any means possible.

F'n word nazis.

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