Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

Earthfirst · 2006-06-06 10:08:37

Yes the brown clouds hang over my city, but the thing that really makes it bad is the urban heat Island effect. The city heats up and keeps the nights warm. In the country outside of Phoenix get gets just as hot but it cools right down at night to 72 F, but here in the big city it stays above 100 F untile midnight. Todays low was 86 F. But it was windy and this morning I saw some clouds in the sky! I don't hold fath that rain will come because it's not that time of year. But it is just nice to have a cloudy day for once.

It does rain in Arizona in the mountains but just not a lot in the desert lowlands. Since January 2 inches of rain. As for the smog it's bad but not as bad as LA, there it mixes with fog to form peroxides that die all the lady's hair blond. But what causes the slicone to get into there bodys remains a great myth.

karov · 2006-06-06 14:38:07

Earthfirst, thanx for the invitation, but USA and Arisona are too far away for me ( I`m from Bulgaria/Europe).
About the smog and the heat spot -- Conclusion: Arisona should be terraformed or evacuated

MarsDog · 2006-06-06 15:42:26

Arizona should be terraformed or evacuated

Saddam's curse is the US version of the Midas touch.
People commute endlessly to get away from each other.
And it all turns to pullution.

With all the sunlight, Arizona is a good place to paraform a Garden of Eden.
Martian style greenhouse living, a most modern and efficient city.

karov · 2006-06-06 16:45:43

Where you come from MarsDog?

Earthfirst · 2006-06-07 10:17:46

My spanish teacher was form Bulgaria. Karvo

As fo paraforming it into a garden of Eden, for the most part it has been. With lots and lots of water, trees and miles of golf greens. The urban heat island is a bad side effect of all the pavement. There is a solution, I thought of it years ago. Just plant large shade trees all along the streets so that they are shaded. Central ave in my town is all ready. As for evacuating people that would not work people love it here. One of the fastest growing areas in the USA. As for greenhouses it is all ready warm, in fact greenhouses here are cooled to keep them from getting too hot. One good thing about greenhouses is that you can conserve water with hydroponics. In open fields tons of water is wasted by evaporation or just runs off. Very little is used by the plants.

As for the heat that is just part of living in a desert, for a person in Bulgaria 112 F may seem hot, but its a dry heat. Your sweat evaporates fast to keep you cool.
As for the moon it also a desert, will you paraform it into a garden? Compared to the moon the dry desert are paradise with water and air. You got a big job ahead of you.

MarsDog · 2006-06-07 14:57:55

I am here:
http://ca.maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ad … name=&qty=

No convenient webcams near me but
Looking North West webcam:
http://www.katkam.ca/
from near burrard bridge:
http://ca.maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ad … name=&qty=

Earthfirst · 2006-06-08 12:14:10

Hello Mars dog, it looks very nice there along the ocean. I would need a jacket in that picture. Burr it must be in the 60 F there.
Here a link to north Mountain park, I hike there a lot. http://www.arizonensis.org/sonoran/plac … ntain.html

North Montain is tall
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsro … mg_id=4835
Heres a web cam of the school I go to.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/arizona/asu/
A site that has weather info for my town
http://www.azcentral.com/weather/

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-24 08:23:46

Returning to the topic:
Nobody is going to claim the Moon or other body.
The juridical status of the Outer space is clear enough after the 1967 Convention.
It sais that THE MANKIND owns the universe, and that no nation has the right to establish souvereignity over extraterrestrial objects. The problem is that this legal formula says nothing for the exculsive proprietor rights... How one to be sure that as on earth his right to own , say an asteroid, excludes the right of all others to touch it.
The only thing this legal base misses, is if you or I or else want to buy land on Moon or Mars, who to address as a seller.
The answer is logical: When UN establishes mechanism ( Notary, Land registry, etc. ) which institution to have the authority to officially recognise property rights to distinct subjects over distinct space objects, THEN one could buy, occupy, possess someething out of the Earth.
In similar way is still designed the situation in Antarctica, except th two major details that nobody can have private property there, and that not all the nations are presented, the ATO ( Antarctic treaty organization) is a closed club society, not fair and just mechanism.

This leads to a dilemma:
What is worse, buying oil from terrorist sponsors in the Middle East so they can murder people, or despoiling the great white wilderness of Antartica so as to get at its virgin oil fields?
I think human life takes precidence over animal life. I think oil can be removed from antartica without disturbing the overall environment too much. I just don't like the fact that all that money goes into the hands of people who support terror groups. If given a choice of oil drilling in Anwar or in Antartica, I would pick antartica, as the north slopes of Alaska have more life. Most of antartica's life is on the coast or offshore. There may be oilfield in that barren white wasteland that dwarf those in Alaska. One way to think of Antartica is that it is the forgotten continent, it does not even appear on many maps of the World.

As for the space treaty, I think the concept of celestial objects being the common property of all mankind and therefore no one, serves to do nothing but keep people on planet Earth and to remove the incentive for going into space. if there is no economic incentive for going into space, even if we develop the technical means to go there, we are still trapped on Earth.

In the Medeval World there was the concept that the heavens were a seperate and distinct place from the earth, and that there were seperate rules governing the behavior of celestial objects that do not apply here on Earth, we have the legal equivalent of that with the UN Outer Space Treaty. I think its time we found the legal equivalent of Sir Isaac Newton, some way to unifiy the rules for both places so they may both work for us. If the UN Outer Space Treaty were applied to Earth as a Celestial Object, our economy would collapse, all private property and soverignty would not be recognized and their would be war and chaos!

karov · 2006-08-24 15:48:46

My only comment would be, that:
Like in physics where 4 forces rule the universe: gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction, the human society is run by 4 forces: business, crime, politics and belief.

The same way as the Grand Unified Theory makes the 4 forces - one , as much you climb higher and higher the societal hierarchy, as more clear evidences you`d see that the four humanity`s drivers are becoming single force.

No difference between: crime, business, politics and religion at The Top.

The Earth is too small for us already.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-24 20:52:05

My only comment would be, that:
Like in physics where 4 forces rule the universe: gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction, the human society is run by 4 forces: business, crime, politics and belief.
The same way as the Grand Unified Theory makes the 4 forces - one , as much you climb higher and higher the societal hierarchy, as more clear evidences you`d see that the four humanity`s drivers are becoming single force.
No difference between: crime, business, politics and religion at The Top.
The Earth is too small for us already.

Religion is how we humans cope with our own mortality.
Business is how we earn a living, feed ourselves, provide for our material wants and our desires.
Politics is how we deal with our fellow human beings, how we get along, and how we sometimes try to manipulate the social dynamic to seek advantage for ourselves.
Crime is how we seek advantage for ourselves at the expense of others, and sometimes it is just the result of one's mental illness and his inability to deal with others in this world.

Probably these four factors will follow us into space and onto Mars. People we still have religion as long as they fear death, people will still need to earn a living and do business. We will remain social creatures and engage in politics, and some will seek opportunity for themselves and commit crimes against others. A successful society in space will have all the elements of existing successful societies on Earth, Human nature will not change and so we must make allowances for that. I think the best thing space allows for us, is to seperate societies that cannot or will not get along by vast distances, so their will not be war. One of the problems existing to day is the "Clash of Civilization" or cultures, we are faced with a primitive culture that will not deal with our liberal modern ways of thinking, and so would like to get rid of us. they devote a disproportionate amount of their energy and resources even going as far as killing themselves to get rid of us and our modern ways of thinking. America faces another problem, the West will not band together to fight this menace, individual countries would rather fight this menace alone or seek accomodation with it rather than stand by our side so we can pool our resources together to fight this menance, seems they'd rather fight us instead as we make a much easier enemy, and they can feel good by defying us Imperialist Capitalist Americans. So what do we do? Move to Mars perhaps, maybe even rename it Planet America? :?:

Mars lacks some certain things to be sure, and we'd all have to live under domes or other similar enclosures, but if we retreat from the World, then I can think of no better place we can go than Mars, but perhaps the Isolationist among us don't really mean that all 300 million of us should get into space ships and all fly off to Mars, they'd much rather we pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist and stick out heads in the sand like ostriches, this works until the World comes and bites us. Too bad we have to spend so much money and our young men and women's lives keeping the dictators down and trying to prevent them from aquiring nuclear weapons, all resources that could have been used for space exploration and colonization all down the drain on the bloody battlefield, what a pity.

idiom · 2006-08-24 21:15:47

we are faced with a primitive culture that will not deal with our liberal modern ways of thinking,

They could say exactly the same thing. That might is right and the dollar rules all seems pretty primitive to a lot of people.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-24 21:46:12

Politics removed

idiom · 2006-08-24 23:38:17

So your 'enlightened' solution is to run away? Boy those muslims are so very primitive...

These primitive people you so despise, are often educated in western universities and have had the opportunity to witness first hand how empty your religious adherence to 'liberalism' is. Its an educated choice to live for something instead of nothing.

You really sound like the enlightened male who says 'women are just like regular people!'

By the way the 'liberal' United States inflicts economic penalties upon New Zealand because we won't let nuclear power be utilised in our country.

Rxke · 2006-08-24 23:53:32

Guys.... This is not the politics section (people are complaining to me so I have to complain...)

idiom · 2006-08-25 00:25:33

yeah, oops.

Ittiz · 2006-08-25 12:20:54

I've put a lot of consideration into this subject. I have concluded that SF6, which is an inert gas, would be the best gas to use to put an atmosphere on the moon. It's extremely heavy and the moon can keep the gas for an indefinite time. It's the best insulating gas known to man so it wouldn't need to be a full bar of pressure at the surface to make perfectly comfortable conditions. Also since it's inert humans can breath it without ill side effects. I will elaborate more on this in the Lunar Terraforming thread.

karov · 2006-09-01 14:19:04

Ittiz , BEAUTIFULL pics!!!!!!
But
1. SF6 + moisture + atmospheric electricity = phosgen...
2. chemical gravitational differentiation - such world would lose water pretty quick
3. from where to get all these exa-tonnes of F?

Ittiz · 2006-09-20 17:03:41

Ittiz , BEAUTIFULL pics!!!!!!
But
1. SF6 + moisture + atmospheric electricity = phosgen...
2. chemical gravitational differentiation - such world would lose water pretty quick
3. from where to get all these exa-tonnes of F?

I address the first and third issues in the Lunar terraforming thread. I'm not sure what you mean with the second one though. Please elaborate.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-15 14:26:22

I personally do not believe the Moon will be Terraformed when humans are around, I think if or when it happens something 'Beyond Human' for example Cyborg might already be superior looking back on what evolved from Kenya and other 'Cave People'.

That is not to say there will not be human colonies in space but conquest of the Moon might not be done by humans but maybe Robot or Genetic Engineered or something beyond us.

NASA awards Firefly Aerospace $112 mln contract for far-side moon lander
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp … 023-03-14/

United States: NASA Prepares Nuclear Reactors for Space by 2027
https://www.energyintel.com/00000186-55 … df0ca40000

Lunar oxygen pipeline would require 175x less energy than moon rovers
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … eline-moon

NASA experiment suggests need to dig deep for evidence of life on Mars
https://phys.org/news/2022-06-nasa-deep … -mars.html

How Do We Terraform The Moon?
https://www.universetoday.com/121140/co … -the-moon/

When it comes to terraforming the Moon, the possibilities and challenges closely resemble those of Mercury. For starters, the Moon has an atmosphere that is so thin that it can only be referred to as an exosphere. What’s more, the volatile elements that are necessary for life are in short supply (i.e. hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon).
These problems could be addressed by capturing comets that contain water ices and volatiles and crashing them into the surface. The comets would sublimate, dispersing these gases and water vapor to create an the atmosphere. These impacts would also liberate water that is contained in the lunar regolith, which could eventually accumulate on the surface to form natural bodies of water.
The transfer of momentum from these comet would also get the Moon rotating more rapidly, speeding up its rotation so that it would no longer be tidally-locked. A Moon that was sped up to rotate once on its axis every 24 hours would have a steady diurnal cycle, which would make colonization and adapting to life on the Moon easier.
There is also the possibility of paraterraforming parts of the Moon in a way that would be similar to terraforming Mercury’s polar region. In the Moon’s case, this would take place in the Shackleton Crater, where scientists have already found evidence of water ice. Using solar mirrors and a dome, this crater could be turned into a micro-climate where plants could be grown and a breathable atmosphere created.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-20 09:57:42)

Calliban · 2023-03-20 09:54:20

A thin lunar atmosphere as little as 1 microbar, would offer appreciable protection against micrometeorites. This atmosphere is likely to be a byproduct of human activity. Human operations will leak gas. Rocckets taking off and landing will produce exhaust. If leakage rate exceeds ~100kg/s, a thin atmosphere will begin to accumulate. It will likely be too thin to have much effect on the surface and would be invisible to the naked eye. But it may be sufficient to heat dust grains coming in at 40km/s into incandescent vapour.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-03-20 09:56:17)

Void · 2023-03-20 10:47:29

That is an attractive idea, as also the atmosphere could be recovered into propellants, and then in many cases the propellants could be recovered back to such a Lunar atmosphere.

I guess the cases for it are multiple and I don't want to waste conversation with such details.

It might be worthwhile to have a leaky magnetic field for the Moon. weak enough for Hydrogen from the solar wind to get in, but strong enough to resist the exit of many types of molecules such as Oxygen. Perhaps water produced and collected to the polar shadowed craters.

Mercury has a leaky magnetic field, and also 3 large ice slabs, I understand.

https://indianexpress.com/article/techn … n-6318454/

So, I think a leaky magnetic field might help in the collecting of some materials, however they arrive to the Moon.

Even cosmic dust and asteroid dust may bring Carbon and Hydrated minerals.

The occasional large impactor as well.

And I think it is not wrong to think of intentionally lithobraking materials to the Moon and collecting the impact results from the impact and subsequent evaporations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-20 10:56:41)

Void · 2023-03-21 20:05:37

https://metro.co.uk/2023/03/21/the-moon … -18476742/
Quote:

The moon contains more water than Nasa once believed
Comment
author image
Anugraha Sundaravelu
Tuesday 21 Mar 2023 1:00 pm

So that seems like a good turn of discovery.

Done.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-17 04:17:38

I thought about many future scifi fringe ideas in fiction like Terraforming the Moon, however perhaps Mars first also with an atmosphere the Moon will lose that advantage, the electromagnetic railgun launched in no atmosphere has the potential to launch cargo to orbit around the Moon and then set up an economy for trade across the Solar System itself.

Currently the missions planned for the Moon seem to be based more on a current scientific reality

How NASA’s ‘search and rescue’ team is getting ready for Artemis II mission splashdown
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ … artemis-ii

NASA Hires SpaceX to Supply Lunar Gateway Space Station
https://futurism.com/the-byte/nasa-hire … ce-station

Mission to the Moon: Who will win Russian and India's race to the lunar South Pole?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2023 … south-pole

and Mars maybe more doable

'Terraforming of Mars: Aerogel Could Support Martian Farming'

https://www.technowize.com/terraforming … n-farming/

Void · 2023-08-17 07:56:04

Quote:

Online
Report Delete Edit Quote
#73Today 05:17:38
Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,944
Email
I thought about many future scifi fringe ideas in fiction like Terraforming the Moon, however perhaps Mars first also with an atmosphere the Moon will lose that advantage, the electromagnetic railgun launched in no atmosphere has the potential to launch cargo to orbit around the Moon and then set up an economy for trade across the Solar System itself.

I believe that Calliban and Terraformer have discussed very thin atmospheres. I think you would want it to be so thin that it would not lift much dust. Perhaps such could occur as a pollution of the Moon by Oxygen from industrial processes. That could be valuable and might even justify an artificial magnetic field for the Moon. So, then you would have an Oxygen tank you could compress for various uses. A shield from the most tiny impactors. It might be possible to do a degree of aerobraking as well? It might happen if we like it or not.

So, I have been thinking about rocket exhaust on the Moon. If the Output is H20 or CO2, there are chances it will get trapped in the shadowed craters of the poles, so you could use it again. This might be even more likely if there is a thin Oxygen atmosphere, as it would be mostly Oxygen that could escape into space, I think. I suppose it would matter if the atmosphere had Molecular Flow or Viscous Flow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_molecular_flow
Quote:

Free molecular flow describes the fluid dynamics of gas where the mean free path of the molecules is larger than the size of the chamber or of the object under test. For tubes/objects of the size of several cm, this means pressures well below 10−3 mbar.

So, at some pressure, Viscous, but not so thick to lift a lot of dust, you might have an atmosphere that would efficiently move H20 and CO2 to the polar areas to freeze.

The existence of such an atmosphere would then interact with the solar wind. I think that it is not yet specified how that works for Mars and Venus. I have suspected that the Hydrogen mixes with upper atmosphere, is not just deflected off.

It is very difficult to break though scientific drama concerning loss of Martian atmosphere. It makes for favorite types of publications showing the dramatic death of Mars. They do not tend to take any time to see if the solar wind may be adding molecules to an atmosphere as well. I think I have seen one or two but cannot fetch them now.

Planet Mercury has a leaky magnetic field, but no Oxygen atmosphere. Somehow though it has thick sheets of ice in some polar craters. So, my thinking is a leaky magnetic field for the Moon might be desired, and i think a thin Oxygen atmosphere would help. One goal would be entraining solar wind molecules into such a thin atmosphere, and to hope this may produce water to be captured in polar shadowed craters. A goal, not a certainty.

So, it is possible that a good balance would be attainable where a thin atmosphere might allow some aerobraking, Mass Drivers, and Skyhooks. Maybe even magnetic propelled tethers.

But this might largely be a byproduct of manufacturing on the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-17 08:23:44)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2006-06-06 10:08:37

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#52 2006-06-06 14:38:07

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#53 2006-06-06 15:42:26

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#54 2006-06-06 16:45:43

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#55 2006-06-07 10:17:46

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#56 2006-06-07 14:57:55

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#57 2006-06-08 12:14:10

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#58 2006-08-24 08:23:46

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#59 2006-08-24 15:48:46

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#60 2006-08-24 20:52:05

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#61 2006-08-24 21:15:47

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#62 2006-08-24 21:46:12

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#63 2006-08-24 23:38:17

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#64 2006-08-24 23:53:32

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#65 2006-08-25 00:25:33

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#66 2006-08-25 12:20:54

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#67 2006-09-01 14:19:04

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#68 2006-09-20 17:03:41

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#69 2023-03-15 14:26:22

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#70 2023-03-20 09:54:20

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#71 2023-03-20 10:47:29

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#72 2023-03-21 20:05:37

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#73 2023-08-17 04:17:38

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

#74 2023-08-17 07:56:04

Re: Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

Board footer