Black Hole Drives

MarsDog · 2006-04-28 05:48:33

If our Universe is a black hole and we try to solve for space and time outside.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=700708
Use string theory ?
http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/jh … ing11.html

Creating mini black holes with particle accelerators is the next step.
How does what you put in influence mini black hole properties ?
Will we get a periodic table for black holes ?
http://www.google.com/search?client=ope … 8&oe=utf-8

chat · 2006-04-28 06:18:06

MarsDog,

Very interesting link on string theory.

It touches on the puzzle that always leaves me scratching my head, not so much are we in a big black hole or how black holes act.
But the void between universe membranes or black hole membranes if we exist in a black hole.

This is the place that always leaves me puzzled for an explanation and has for 30 years.
The void between universes has no space and time and no matter yet occupies area.

No matter how i try to approach the problem it always leads back to a stumbling block, and lots of headaches trying to figure out a way it can exist in area and yet not be there.

(Just is) so far is my best solution.
Who would have thought that the most interesting thing to study is nothing.

MarsDog · 2006-04-28 12:00:23

But the void between universe membranes or black hole membranes if we exist in a black hole

What is the structure of the "void" that determines the extreme speed of Gravity, Single Photon Interference, allows particles to be created in pairs ?

The void between universes has no space and time and no matter yet occupies area

The latest interpretation from Hawking was that baby universes do not form as previously stated, but rejoin and release information, over time, in some way. Gravity has nailed the Black Hole down, and cannot run away with the information.
http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/story.php?f … story=5398

Possible to rejoin the universe in other than thermal manner ?
Looks like it, if the information is only borrowed.

How to tell the Little Green Men in the Black Hole to make a convenient rocket motor for us. Reward or punishment ? Drop a neutron star on their heads or their favourite manna from heaven, platinum asteroids ?

All the old science fiction alternate reality universes were wrong ?
Soon to come, Alladin's Lamp, revised to the Rocket version.

chat · 2006-04-28 17:02:50

MarsDog,

The void has no properties at all.
Just space without matter or energy or time.
A very bizarre place to think about that occupies volume but consists of nothing.

If we are the only universe that exists then the void exists beyond its edge.
If we live in a black hole (the entire universe as black hole) then the void is just outside that.
If we live in a multiverse then the void is between universes.

If the void had any properties it would eventually form a universe of its own and crowd the existing ones, causing the life of all universes to decrease on each expansion and contraction.

Since we have no clue how many times our universe has collapsed and expanded we can expect that number to be infinite.

If void space was here forever and had any properties then it also would be full of universes, so void space must also be constantly void forever.

Void space must be the property of the multiverse, just the empty space between universes that only becomes part of a universe as it expands to the void.

The properties or non properties of void space and trying to apply any math to it is very frustrating and difficult to grasp how it can exist without effecting each universe.

If steven is correct about the memory of matter then why cant anyone get any info on the last collapse of this universe that happened before the big bang and expansion this time?
It was all in one big black hole, but nothing came forward about the previous state with it.

I've yet to see any mysterious beer cans fly past me, well maybe when i was 18.

MarsDog · 2006-04-28 23:52:53

The void has no properties at all.
Just space without matter or energy or time.
A very bizarre place to think about that occupies volume but consists of nothing.

Then the void does not exist !
Only one hand clapping ?
Meaningless is an object without properties.

Space is all there is. Waves, gravity etc. are all properties of space.
Good reading: http://www.quantummatter.com/

Black holes just an interference pattern ?

chat · 2006-04-29 05:05:56

MarsDog,

The void can be meaningless and yet mean everything.
Just because it doesn't have properties doesn't mean it doesn't have effect.
The property of the void is the area it occupies, without a void taking up volume the universe couldn't expand.

Two universes or time/space bubbles running into each other is probably how universes start and collapse, but what is the medium they flow through to get to each other?

A black hole has no properties inside either but also has an effect on its region of space and maybe all of space.

Both void and black hole are interference and distortion, and both have an effect on time/space.

A black hole is simple to determine what effect it has.
A void not so simple to determine how it effects everything beyond the boundary.

Is our universe just 1 time bubble moving towards imminent collision with surrounding time bubbles in different states flowing through the voids created by the matrix of the multiverse.

Those old science fiction shows might not be so wrong with parallel universes as the multiverse universes would go on forever.
Don't expect to go visit another universe though, since to get to another universe you must travel through void space with no time.

cIclops · 2006-04-29 06:27:16

cIclops,
If we could get a few suns together i bet it would be a devastating event for the local area to create a black hole.
I bet it wouldn't be a seamless transition to a black hole.

They shouldn't be stars, just the equivalent in mass. Stars won't work because their radiation would prevent the gravitational collapse needed to form the BH. The gravity of the stars would also make mergering them quite difficult to control, extreme care should be taken if you try to do this

The transistion of the object to a BH is not easy to model, yes it could be quite dangerous if you stood too close.

MarsDog · 2006-04-29 14:05:37

The void can be meaningless and yet mean everything.
Just because it doesn't have properties doesn't mean it doesn't have effect.
The property of the void is the area it occupies, without a void taking up volume the universe couldn't expand.

Void is something that allows expansion ?
If you did not have the void, what would prevent expansion ?

Two universes or time/space bubbles running into each other is probably how universes start and collapse, but what is the medium they flow through to get to each other?

Space may be infinite. Black holes inside black holes etc.
Meaningless to talk of complete disconnect.
Each bubble onto itself, unobservable.

A black hole has no properties inside either but also has an effect on its region of space and maybe all of space.

Charge, mass, angular momentum, and remnant of particle pair of Hawking radiation. Just because, from our reference, time solutions inside the black hole are imaginary does not mean lack of structure or process inside.

Both void and black hole are interference and distortion, and both have an effect on time/space.

From the effects of the void, properties are deduced, therefore it cannot be a void !

Is our universe just 1 time bubble moving towards imminent collision with surrounding time bubbles in different states flowing through the voids created by the matrix of the multiverse.

We, in a black hole, connecting to another black hole, 2 galaxies merging, 2 solar systems, twin cities becoming one, one ameoba devouring the other ?

Those old science fiction shows might not be so wrong with parallel universes as the multiverse universes would go on forever.
Don't expect to go visit another universe though, since to get to another universe you must travel through void space with no time.

Imagination to form a logical theory.
But only real data can determine validity.

====================================

Michio Kaku and Art Bell have other ideas
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/3.html

chat · 2006-04-29 17:16:56

cIclops,

I concur, stand way back when creating a black hole

Marsdog,

If you did not have a void for the universe to expand into then it could not expand.
With some set of properties outside the universe the properties inside would be very different.

The void might simply be an area of space that each universe occupies when expanding and contracting.
No universe exists in the void between each universe as it is swept clean by each universe when it contracts.

Each universe bubble has a way to be detected.
Since gravity waves can escape a black hole it makes perfect sense that gravity can also travel past the voids.
Multiverse interference.

If we had a very precise way to measure gravity i bet we would be able to detect stronger readings in different regions of space, all pointing to the edge of our universe.
They would be detecting other universes influencing ours, and maybe just the reason our universe seems to be speeding up as we get closer to the boundary of other universes and gravity becomes stronger between each.

Difficult to say what properties a black hole truly has inside, at best guess it is just a lack of space with a lack of time going with that first property.
The exact opposite of a void.

Been down that road of trying to analyze what a void truly is many times.
I have also come to the conclusion that a void doesn't exist more than once.
If the voids don't exist then it always points me back to how does a universe get to be a black hole universe before the big bang in the first place if voids are non existent.

Without voids a crowding effect or bunching effect should occur over time with each universe slowly getting closer to its neighbor on each expansion.

You've hit on a point about cannibal universes i have wondered about for years.
Is it possible that universes can cannibalize each other like galaxies do?
Are the universe boundaries immovable and unable to merge due to each universes unique time/space, or is the boundary soft and time/space can merge.

A merging cannibal system makes it quite complex to make sense of any boundaries, but no reason exists that cannibal universes cant be the system.

The individual space/time for each universe not allowing mergers is cleaner and simpler, but no reason other than simple for this system.

My feeling is non merging individual space/time bubbles that bounce off each other.
This makes it simple to explain how a universe in black hole state can start it's expansion, and how the contraction can happen in a universe when collisions take place.

Fun to think about nothing isn't it?

MarsDog · 2006-04-30 17:35:26

Start from the fact that matter is composed of waves.
Waves are in a medium called space.
The void is not a void if it transmits or carries something.

An attempt to unify: http://home.comcast.net/~jeffocal/shadows.htm

chat · 2006-04-30 18:31:01

MarsDog,

Does a similar transmission rule apply to black holes also?
If something can't transmit or react to waves is it non existent?

How can a black hole transmit waves in a state where any waves are absorbed by gravity, even light can't escape a black hole and it is suppose to be the fastest wave possible in the universe.?
Is gravity some special beast that we need to rewrite general relativity for, as gravity waves do escape a black hole, or do they?
If something can't transmit or react with a wave does it exist? exact reverse argument of a void.

If gravity is just a distortion then a black hole isn't really transmitting anything , a void should transmit just a gravity distortion without really transmitting anything.
What properties does a time/space distortion have that couldn't be transmitted through a void or black hole?

Another solution is gravity might be multi dimensional unaffected by the realms and laws of 3 dimensional space/time.

Something strange is happening with gravity and black holes without question, just no one has questioned why gravity is doing what it does at black holes.

MarsDog · 2006-05-02 01:36:15

Does a similar transmission rule apply to black holes also?
If something can't transmit or react to waves is it non existent?

Void is a discontinuity, end of space.
Waves reflect, as in an open transmission line.
Waves are all we have to determine existence.
And reflection of a wave means boundary.
(Stealth aircraft is not a void because it absorbs radiation)

How can a black hole transmit waves in a state where any waves are absorbed by gravity, even light can't escape a black hole and it is suppose to be the fastest wave possible in the universe.?
Is gravity some special beast that we need to rewrite general relativity for, as gravity waves do escape a black hole, or do they?

Inside of a large black hole is where we may be living.
Gravity may be a property of space, not a particle which absorbs.

If gravity is just a distortion then a black hole isn't really transmitting anything , a void should transmit just a gravity distortion without really transmitting anything.
What properties does a time/space distortion have that couldn't be transmitted through a void or black hole?

There are processes within a black hole. What is the transfer function of a black hole ? Things fall in and out comes information on mass, charge, angular momentum, and latest from Hawking, the information that went in emerges eventually.

Something strange is happening with gravity and black holes without question, just no one has questioned why gravity is doing what it does at black holes.

Black holes are not singularities since they have angular momentum,
Still connected to the universe, because spinning without reference is meaningless.
Radiation via particle pair creation and tunneling faster than the speed of light.
Energy from angular momentum transferred to surrounding gas.
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object … ctid=28779

==============================

There are numerous black hole possibilities.
Collapsed neutron stars where the high pressure only allows elementary particles.
Large low density, such as the universe we live in.

What if we had a large black hole with squirrels in a squirrel cage.
The outer surface would be rotating, transferring to the outside.

Spherical shell (or long cylinder) black hole with gravity=0 at the center ?

chat · 2006-05-02 06:04:51

MarsDog,

Quote:
(Stealth aircraft is not a void because it absorbs radiation)

Just reflecting properties in a stealth aircraft, but i do understand the analogy you were trying to make.

Simple cause and effect wont work on either black hole or void, neither will transmit or reflect waves, so setting a causality from either will be impossible to define.

Quote:
Inside of a large black hole is where we may be living.
Gravity may be a property of space, not a particle which absorbs.

Yes we are living inside a black hole, and no we are not.
The universe can be in black hole state at one time and expansion or contraction at another time.
Defining if any state is other than just a state of a black hole is unclear.
The universe might just be a repeating black hole cycle activate by other repeating black hole cycles.
It might also only be a black hole universe only until a universal space/time collision starts an expansion, then we exist in an open universe until the collapse at another collision.

Gravity as a property of space, if it was a property of space then shouldn't the expansion happen differently?
Shouldn't an expansion be uniform and follow gravity evenly?

If gravity is a property of matter then the universe should expand clumpy as id does.
Even worse that clumping of mass might not even follow our own universe gravity if multiverse interference is possible.

Quote:

Black holes are not singularities since they have angular momentum,
Still connected to the universe, because spinning without reference is meaningless.
Radiation via particle pair creation and tunneling faster than the speed of light.
Energy from angular momentum transferred to surrounding gas.

A black hole has angular momentum just before its even horizon, all the matter flows down in an accelerating path towards the event horizon.
But why does it spin in one direction?
Does this show that the black hole itself is spinning?
If not how do we account for the spin of the matter in one direction?

Connection to the universe with a black hole is clear from looking at its effects from our space/time, but inside one the connection is not so clear.
If a black hole is time so compressed as to be infinite then no true connection really exists to our space/time as the black hole is its own space/time.

Voids exist everywhere, just look at the mass in an atom and you will find 99.9% is a void with no properties.
Yet atoms still exist.

Not the best analogy to point out voids, but a good place to show they exist.

chat · 2006-05-02 10:05:32

Marsdog,

Sorry missed this part.

I believe you are quoting the argument of pair particles communicating with each other anywhere in the universe?
faster than light or seamless hole argument?

Neither!
Gravity as the transmitter is neither faster than light or transmits any information in a seamless hole.

Gravity being a time distortion onto itself is the medium that passes the info anywhere in the universe instantly to pair particles.
No broken general relativity laws here, or broken quantum mechanical laws.

Instantly because all gravity sources from atom to black hole are only a distortion of time and not a traveling medium.

Just my guess

John Creighton · 2006-05-02 19:37:11

Marsdog,
Sorry missed this part.
I believe you are quoting the argument of pair particles communicating with each other anywhere in the universe?
faster than light or seamless hole argument?
Neither!
Gravity as the transmitter is neither faster than light or transmits any information in a seamless hole.
Gravity being a time distortion onto itself is the medium that passes the info anywhere in the universe instantly to pair particles.
No broken general relativity laws here, or broken quantum mechanical laws.
Instantly because all gravity sources from atom to black hole are only a distortion of time and not a traveling medium.
Just my guess

Ahhhh.........??????? The trick is it is not the spoon that bends, it is your mind that bends.......but don't bend your mind too much

chat · 2006-05-03 04:27:09

John Creighton,

I had a pretty bent mind to begin with, so it was easy for me to bend it a little bit more

It does make some sense that if gravity is just time distortion then it need not violate any laws to influence anywhere instantly, when gravity doesn't actually move or feel time.

At least its better than a seamless hole or ftl

John Creighton · 2006-05-03 07:39:24

John Creighton,
I had a pretty bent mind to begin with, so it was easy for me to bend it a little bit more
It does make some sense that if gravity is just time distortion then it need not violate any laws to influence anywhere instantly, when gravity doesn't actually move or feel time.
At least its better than a seamless hole or ftl

You mean general relativity. Still what is the point? How can you apply this knowledge?

chat · 2006-05-03 10:10:40

John Creighton,

Take two twins one lives on earth one on the moon.

If i am correct about gravity being just a time distortion the person living on the moon will age a small amount more than the person living on earth due to the slightly larger time distortion on earth.

Even after explaining away the velocity time difference you should still have gravity time distortion difference left.
Two well tuned atomic clocks would prove this or disprove this.

Usefulness of the knowledge that gravity and voids might dictate relativity or just be part of relativity?
Probably some useful things could be discovered from that

This is one simple one to think about.

Relativity.... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite mass as you get closer to C.
Gravity ..... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite in time, no mass change only increasing time distortion as you get closer to C.

What makes more sense to you? mass appears from nowhere to increase infinitely?
Or time distortion just increases until time almost stops for an object making it appear to be infinite in mass?

With gravity the reason you can't go faster than C is that you cant compress time any further than the speed of C, C being just a measure of universal time.

You be the judge.

John Creighton · 2006-05-03 12:50:29

Take two twins one lives on earth one on the moon.
If i am correct about gravity being just a time distortion the person living on the moon will age a small amount more than the person living on earth due to the slightly larger time distortion on earth.

Yes you are correct but you could of said in one sentence, that gravity slows down time.

Even after explaining away the velocity time difference you should still have gravity time distortion difference left.

That is nice, when did explaining the velocity time difference come up in our conversation?

Two well tuned atomic clocks would prove this or disprove this.

You mean, “have proven this”.

Usefulness of the knowledge that gravity and voids might dictate relativity or just be part of relativity?

This sentence doesn’t make much sence.

Probably some useful things could be discovered from that Smile

K 8-)

This is one simple one to think about.

Oh, do I have to?

Relativity.... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite mass as you get closer to C.

Infinite initial mass relative to an observer.

Gravity ..... Mass moving towards C becomes infinite in time, no mass change only increasing time distortion as you get closer to C.

Infinite in time? You mean time slows appears to slow down to the observer.

What makes more sense to you? mass appears from nowhere to increase infinitely?

Well, that sentence certainly doesn’t make sence.

Or time distortion just increases until time almost stops for an object making it appear to be infinite in mass?

Time dilation you mean. You can look at physics often from more then one perspective. For instance am I pushing against the ground or is the ground pushing against me? Physics will be consistent so we can say that the space ship appears to accelerate faster because the relative exhaust velocity to the observer looks slower but that only explains forces from the reference frame of a ship. What about the reference frame of an accelerator. To the stationary observer the reference from of the accelerate is still and not time dilated. And if you explain away that then what about the creation of heavier particles when two particles collide. The fact is there is physics is full of deulaties. You can look at it however you want as long as it is consistent. However, such perspectives will only forward your understanding if you can predict things we can measure. So, I ask this, what extra utility does your model give us in terms of engineering a black hole drive?

chat · 2006-05-03 14:47:11

doah

chat · 2006-05-03 14:48:19

doah

chat · 2006-05-03 14:59:46

John Creighton,

I explained the moons difference in velocity to the earths.
Yes moon and earth have a different time due to different speeds in space.

Didn't ask if you asked about it, just pointed it out.

No one has detected a gravity time distortion, you are quoting time distortions on a plane compared to ground speed.

Usefulness of a sentence about time/space depends on the reader.
I put it in simple terms for easy understanding.
If that didn't make sense then i should have made it easier to understand.

You don't need to decide anything John.
All the universal questions are already answered arnt they ?
No need to even attempt to understand anything you don't like.

All i did was to try to point out that gravity might not act in the universe the way we would like it to.

No need to be rude, if you don't like the idea just say that.
But don't be a dork for no reason or because you don't like the idea without thought or it threatens your understanding.
That is the hallmark of a closed mind.

chat · 2006-05-03 15:53:11

John,

To answer your question about using a black hole as an engineering drive.

If I'm correct gravity is the time dilation, and mass the amount of that dilation, a black hole being near infinite time/mass has no external properties and no waves traveling anywhere to harness.

In all aspects to us a black hole is its own time/space, only the effects of our time/space near a black hole can be harnessed.

Gravity assists will certainly work, but getting there more effort than the value of the assist.

John Creighton · 2006-05-03 18:44:31

I explained the moons difference in velocity to the earths.
Yes moon and earth have a different time due to different speeds in space.
Didn't ask if you asked about it, just pointed it out.

Did I title my thread random facts?

No one has detected a gravity time distortion,

You have this fact wrong and if you question it I’ll look it up. Perhaps read the book, Paul Davis, “About Time”.

you are quoting time distortions on a plane compared to ground speed.

I believe that was your example.

Usefulness of a sentence about time/space depends on the reader.
I put it in simple terms for easy understanding.
If that didn't make sense then i should have made it easier to understand.

You mean you should be more clear.

You don't need to decide anything John.

You are being sarcastic?

All the universal questions are already answered arnt they ?

No need to even attempt to understand anything you don't like.

Your understanding is confused. Physics by analogy only takes you so far.

All i did was to try to point out that gravity might not act in the universe the way we would like it to.

Well, duh, or we would have perpetual motion machines I like a free lunch.

No need to be rude, if you don't like the idea just say that.

An idea? That would imply some coherency to your writings. If you want to post off topic random thoughts create a tread called just that.

But don't be a dork for no reason

I have a reason. My reason is I don’t like reading off topic nonsense.

or because you don't like the idea without thought or it threatens your understanding.
That is the hallmark of a closed mind.

Ahh….You only wish I feel treated. If you want to be open to all ideas why don’t you spend your days and nights reading astrology.

John Creighton · 2006-05-03 19:01:19

John,
To answer your question about using a black hole as an engineering drive.
If I'm correct gravity is the time dilation, and mass the amount of that dilation,

I don’t think you are completely confused because consider a ship traveling though space by the earth. Gravity on one side of the ship will be greater then the gravity on the other. Thus time on one side of the ship will be slower then time on the other side of the ship.

For each part of the ship to travel at a constant velocity relative to the reference plane of that part of the ship then the ship must travel in a curved path. This could be equivalent to saying objects travel in a straight line in space time but mass warps space time. But what really is the point?

a black hole being near infinite time/mass has no external properties and no waves traveling anywhere to harness.

What do you mean by infinite time? Time stops in a black hole. And infinite mass? We know about how many solar masses a lot of black holes are. Aproximatly.

In all aspects to us a black hole is its own time/space, only the effects of our time/space near a black hole can be harnessed.

What relevance does this have to the topic I posted and how do you substantiate it?

Gravity assists will certainly work, but getting there more effort than the value of the assist.

Okay, why are we talking about Gravity assists now?

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