Outsourcing the VSE and Mars

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-19 01:51:08

Sometimes outsourcing and the private sector can produce positive results
for example SETI the search for alien life
http://www.seti.housenet.org/comm_main.html

However other times outsoucring is very bad
http://www.informationweek.com/news/sho … on=Columns
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/baldwin/060318

Bush went to India to defend outscourcing and they are already outscouring lunar exploration to New Delhi.
What would be the impact of trying to outsource the VSE and Mars ?

cIclops · 2006-03-19 04:16:04

Sometimes outsourcing and the private sector can produce positive results
for example SETI the search for alien life
http://www.seti.housenet.org/comm_main.html
However other times outsoucring is very bad
http://www.informationweek.com/news/sho … on=Columns
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/baldwin/060318
Bush went to India to defend outscourcing and they are already outscouring lunar exploration to New Delhi.
What would be the impact of trying to outsource the VSE and Mars ?

Eh? All Bush/DoS/NASA did was the standard deal to share space technology for geopolitical purposes, just as the US did with Europe for decades and more recently with Russia in the ISS project. US scientists also got more instruments flown. There is no outsourcing of lunar exploration to India lol.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-03-19 06:21:58

It's a fact that NASA is the greatest space agency that ever existed so NASA will always have more to offer other Space Agency's in joint co-operative missions. The United States has more to give them when compared to the amount that they or other space groups offer the NASA, so NASA often loses out because they gain more. However I doubt very much that the Russians or Europeans ever needed any real help from NASA to get their any of their missions going. Remember firstly that Russia and Europe have had some massive scientists and a history of inventors way before NASA existed and a history that would make people like Benjamin Franklin and Robert Goddard seem ordinary. Europe and Russia have produced people like Newton, DaVinci, Dmitri Mendeleev, Einstein, Copernicus, VonBraun, Milankovitch, Plato, Darwin, Hertz, Hawking, Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, Herschel...( I don't time to write a list that could take ages )

NASA can't go all over the Galaxy and do everything, it gets stuck for time or sometimes mission prices starting to spiral out of control. Then NASA are forced to do joint-missions but there are very few Space agency's that have something great to offer NASA. Russia could be a good partner for the Moon, they built Energia and have been in Space for double the time NASA has, China is starting to pass Japan's economy and technology by building up great infrastructure could become a good help ( however USA and China are also likley to become Space rivals ). Canada does good robotics and Europe have very good technology and wisdom to offer NASA, they have built many ESA space telescopes, building robot spacecraft, the Europeans are testing new forms of propulsion and doing extra solar planet missions.

Partnerships with anyone else are completely worthless - and outsourcing NASA to India is just dumb - its just like outsourcing to any nation with a scud missile launch pad. Horrible places like Iran, India, NorthKorea or Pakistan not only are a political mess or enemy-states but they also have nothing worthwhile to give the USA, if NASA has to outsource it should do joint missions with people who actually know something about space-exploration.

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-19 07:57:19

The only guys that want to outsource NASA are ex-Admin O'Keefe and Bush ( who has been in India )

Administrator Griffin is going to fight so he can keep a great skilled workforce and workforce and a great knowledge base
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19913
Griffin will do his best in retaining and recruiting talented American personnel

Commodore · 2006-03-19 14:30:01

No one is out sourcing NASA. Was Huygens outsourcing?

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-19 15:38:48

Um, India is kind of our friend now, one of the few democracies in the region, and has one of the largest educated populations on Earth.

And nobody is outsourcing anything big elsewhere, and you can be assured of this for no other reason then Congress would not tollerate the NASA gravy train going overseas.

Martian Republic · 2006-03-19 20:55:55

I wouldn't put it past George Bush to try and outsource NASA overseas. But, if he try it, it will basically be the end of NASA, because congress will refuse fund NASA if it not being both managed and the equipment is being send into space is not built inside the United States. If I were a congressman and George Bush took an attitude that he was going to outsource NASA and he not coming off his position no matter what happens, then I would take the opposing view, that NASA not going to get any funding period. My personal attitudes it, finance American to build space to go into space, but I'm not going to fund other countries to build space to go into space. I live in place that has a heavy concentration of Aero-Space manufacturing companies. We have Lockeed, Boeing, Bell helicopter and other companies like that in the Dallas Fort Worth Area that could manufacture those things. If our congressman agreed to outsource those contracts overseas instead of bring them here, when he comes back to us, we would probably eat him live when we run into him.

One of the benefits of having an organization like NASA, is the fact that you will create good paying jobs in the United States. If George Bush thinks that he can outsource NASA jobs overseas and just give us the bills to pay without having the jobs that go with, well screw that. We would not be getting a return back to the US economy on money that we spend in space and would only excellarate the deficit problem that the United States currently has down hear, which is currently over 600 billion dollars a year.

As bad as the support of the American people is about the space program is, it will get whole lot worse and even I would not support it either. I’m as about pro space as you can get, but I couldn’t support something like that.

Larry,

cIclops · 2006-03-20 02:28:18

I wouldn't put it past George Bush to try and outsource NASA overseas. But, if he try it, it will basically be the end of NASA, because congress will refuse fund NASA if it not being both managed and the equipment is being send into space is not built inside the United States. If I were a congressman and George Bush took an attitude that he was going to outsource NASA and he not coming off his position no matter what happens, then I would take the opposing view, that NASA not going to get any funding period. My personal attitudes it, finance American to build space to go into space, but I'm not going to fund other countries to build space to go into space. I live in place that has a heavy concentration of Aero-Space manufacturing companies. We have Lockeed, Boeing, Bell helicopter and other companies like that in the Dallas Fort Worth Area that could manufacture those things. If our congressman agreed to outsource those contracts overseas instead of bring them here, when he comes back to us, we would probably eat him live when we run into him.
One of the benefits of having an organization like NASA, is the fact that you will create good paying jobs in the United States. If George Bush thinks that he can outsource NASA jobs overseas and just give us the bills to pay without having the jobs that go with, well screw that. We would not be getting a return back to the US economy on money that we spend in space and would only excellarate the deficit problem that the United States currently has down hear, which is currently over 600 billion dollars a year.
As bad as the support of the American people is about the space program is, it will get whole lot worse and even I would not support it either. I’m as about pro space as you can get, but I couldn’t support something like that.
Larry,

It's hard to know where to begin with this nonsense and probably masochistic to even try. NASA is a goverment agency tasked with executing policies, such as VSE or aviation safety and is funded by US tax payers. The way NASA's funding is spent is determined mainly by lobbies from US industry and US science. It's a complete misrepresentation to say that a standard bartering deal (as has been done for a long time with ISS/HST and many science missions) is outsourcing. Ask who gains from saying that flying US instruments on an Indian satellite is outsourcing, and you may have the answer. Hint: it's politics.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-03-20 07:47:17

Was Huygens outsourcing?

Yes the Cassini-Huygens was outsourcing or offshoreing or whatever you American guys call it. The difference with outsourcing to Europe or doing joint missions with places Russia, Japan or Canada is that these guys actually know a thing or two about space-exploration unlike those other third world nations with useless scud missile launch pads. Bush is now quickly becoming a lame Duck and even the Republicans are moving away from him, he has started to make too many mistakes his policy on outsourcing, the eavesdropping scandals, Iraq fallout, TomDelay-Cheney fiascos, Katrina mess. Another huge problem is that Bush has few friends on the international level, they are isolated from Canada, relations with Brazil have gone backward, relations with European nations like France an all time low, relations with Russia aren't great either, even British citizens who voted for the Loyal Blair are getting tried of the Iraq mess. As for GW's vision for NASA, it could all fall apart by the time the next election comes.

Keep in mind that the only guy who tried to his best for NASA is long dead, JFK is this famous NASA legend. Kennedy was way ahead of his time and gave space-fans a great thing and every other President ( both Republican and Democrat ) have been a failure to NASA's space exploration needs.

President Kennedy could see years ahead of his time, he knew how to get America ahead in Space and even during the height of the cold-war he still made NASA's vision as non-partisan as possible. Clinton and Carter had a policy that caused a heap of probelms at NASA and they all stuck their stupid political party onto the missions : Carter’s UFO ideas, the AlGore-Sat...The Reagan and Bush-Snr Admin also filled NASA with political nonsense and rubbish plans : Ideas like Spacetrucking the Shuttle to the spacestations like MIR, fantasy Starwars plans, a Mars plan was never really going to get off the ground.

Some people however are really sceptical of the VSE and plan-Bush, some think of it as a sneaky tactic by giving NASA too many herculean tasks and set NASA up for an even bigger fall. Some sceptics of Bush's VSE think it is a cunning game to end NASA much like Tricky-Dicky's admin weighed ending the space exploration for good. However would Bush really do this to NASA or could he ? Can GW finish what Nixon started - Bush never cared much for science before his VSE talk except for perhaps his ideas like stem-cells, climate-change and creationism. After the Shuttle broke up over Texas, and later with the Chinese, Europeans and Russia pushing ahead George Bush Jnr was then forced to do something about space for a change. Some people think his VSE is just a big trick give NASA too many grandiose and expensive goals and set it up for an even bigger gall, some see plan-Bush as a cunning game to end exploration. Remember that part of the Bush and GOP policy is that things like government organizations, Medi-care, fed bodies and big-government are bad while other things like no-bid contracts in foregin lands, privatization-policies, corporations, and outsourcing are good.

India is one of those treacherous ally's that will shake your hand with one arm but stab you in the back with another, the Indians can never be frank or straight with America unlike the Russians or French who are always blunt with the USA. India isn't sitting in a unique positon, America has had many of these types of treacherous so-called friends before : Saudia Arabia, Venezulea, Egypt, Iran...the list goes on and on. Just because India has a few good philosophers or a few good mathematicians doesn't really mean squat ! The Persians, Aztecs, Greeks, Mayans, ancient Chinese also knew a thing or two about geometry and numbers but does that mean we should suddenly outsource everything NASA to Manchu Picchu because these guys knew a thing or two about numbers - of course we should not ! India is one of those pseudo democracies that enjoys the best crimes of many past regimes and current dictatorships. India has failed to modernise, have huge social problems like slavery corruption, a cast system, they also have a massive infrastructural deficit. India have already shown their militant intent when Coldwar Indian flyboys in low-tech Russian defeated the USA in joint excercises - meaning they wont be buying 'MadeinAmerica' anytime soon. India has also been something of a Cold-war enemy of the USA, 90% percent of its military supplies come from former Soviet areas and they used this equipment to destroy American made planes and hardware. Outsourcing NASA to India is a totally stupid idea, it gives away jobs and gives India free-technology. However Bush-Jnr has been in India to defend outsourcing. Bush has said that outsourcing the recent robotic Lunar mission will be a major advance for more space co-operation and do activities critical to GW's Vision for Space Exploration. Bush-Jnr will also expand NASA outsourcing to areas such as exploration, satellite nav and earth science.

There is however some good news and that great thing is Michael D Griffin. He is a man who understands NASA's troubles and has a skill in sweet talking both the Democrat and Republican camp. Griffin has some great ability, he'll do his best to go through each of the herculean goals in Plan-Bush and see if they are really credible, Griffin will go through every mission and check these VSE tasks one-by-one and determine which ones are do-able. Michael D Griffin is the best thing to happen NASA for these past years

cIclops · 2006-03-21 02:43:25

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped/discussed? This section of the forum is described as "Cost, logistics, funding, technology and timeframe for manned missions to Mars" can we please keep it relevant. It takes too much time to wade through pages of confused dribble and even longer to try to respond to it.

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-21 08:30:11

"I wouldn't put it past George Bush to try and outsource NASA overseas."

How could he? Dick "The Real President" Cheney makes all the real decisions from the shadows of his undesclosed location, right? Nonsense, you just jumped on this stupid notion because someone else brought it up and it sounds bad about Bush.

"Yes the Cassini-Huygens was outsourcing or offshoreing... Bush never cared much for science before his VSE talk except for perhaps his ideas like stem-cells, climate-change and creationism. After the Shuttle broke up over Texas, and later with the Chinese, Europeans and Russia pushing ahead George Bush Jnr was then forced to do something about space for a change. Some people think his VSE is just a big trick give NASA too many grandiose and expensive goals and set it up for an even bigger gall [sic], some see plan-Bush as a cunning game to end exploration. Remember that part of the Bush and GOP policy is that things like government organizations, Medi-care, fed bodies and big-government are bad while other things like no-bid contracts in foregin lands, privatization-policies, corporations, and outsourcing are good. "

Thats both not true, off-topic political drivel, and stupid, Yang. "Some people," "GOP policy," and conspiracy theories, all favorite canards of the comically impotent lunatic left, of which you seem to be a member.

"Just because India has a few good philosophers or a few good mathematicians doesn't really mean squat..." (and following drivvel)

Not far from overtly racist either, that hypocritical contradiction has always amazed me. Or at the very least, totally ignorant about how intelligence of many Indians, the fact that their country is so young economically and has so many huge challenges to conquer. The rest of your stupid rant about the Myans etc isn't worth acknolaging.

"Coldwar Indian flyboys in low-tech Russian defeated the USA in joint excercises - meaning they wont be buying 'MadeinAmerica' anytime soon."

They were flying modern Russian fighters designed to kill the F-15 & F-16 with late-model weapons which are pretty good (Russia makes perfectly good missiles), why else would the USAF want the F-22 fighter? The deck was also stacked against the Americans by depriving them of AWACs support on purpose. The excercise was a marketing stunt for the F-22 after all. Russian fighters and weapons are also considerably less expensive, and if India doesn't mind not having the best weapons, then Russian hardware is a bargain.

"It's hard to know where to begin with this nonsense and probably masochistic to even try. NASA is a goverment agency tasked with executing policies, such as VSE or aviation safety and is funded by US tax payers. The way NASA's funding is spent is determined mainly by lobbies from US industry and US science... It takes too much time to wade through pages of confused dribble and even longer to try to respond to it."

Yeah, this is starting to get kinda old, and there isn't much sense trying to talk sense into Martian Republic I've found, and its starting to look that way for Yang too. Back on topic, I think you are wrong that NASA's money is allocated by lobbiests, at least anymore. This is evidenced by NASA making cuts in science for exploration, and NASA finally being allowed get rid of some of the old Shuttle army legions.

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-21 08:56:45

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped

Politics is very much part of NASA, if you would like to try and set up a totalitarian newmars where no space politics is discussed and everyone supports plan-Bush then go ahead and email your ideas to the Mods. However you might want to first paractice what you preach as you yourself have made some political statements concrening European or Russian space policy.

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-21 09:34:44

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped
Politics is very much part of NASA, if you would like to try and set up a totalitarian newmars where no space politics is discussed and everyone supports plan-Bush then go ahead and email your ideas to the Mods. However you might want to first paractice what you preach as you yourself have made some political statements concrening European or Russian space policy.

There is talking politics about spaceflight, and then there is talk about spaceflight politics "launching" lengthy posts full of irrelivent nonsense like what MR and increasingly Yang like to spew. Just read some of MR's crazy "national mission, city on Mars" or "banking system" business.

cIclops · 2006-03-21 10:54:26

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped
Politics is very much part of NASA, if you would like to try and set up a totalitarian newmars where no space politics is discussed and everyone supports plan-Bush then go ahead and email your ideas to the Mods.

Thanks for the advice. BTW just for the record, this is the original text:

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped/discussed?

Deliberate misrepresentation is one of the characteristics of a true totalitarian.

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-21 10:59:52

Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped
Politics is very much part of NASA, if you would like to try and set up a totalitarian newmars where no space politics is discussed and everyone supports plan-Bush then go ahead and email your ideas to the Mods.
Thanks for the advice. BTW just for the record, this is the orginal text:
Is there another place in New Mars where space politics can be dumped/discussed?
Deliberate misrepresentation is one of the characteristics of a true totalitarian.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-03-21 15:27:42

It seems I've to explain myself and my position yet again, just because my name is Yang doesn't mean much except that I'm a fan of China's space-deeds, I enjoy seeing its Shenzhou and I like the future Chinese launchers but I'm not even a Chinese person. I'm not a fan of China's human rights record, nor do I like Mao and I dislike many other Chinese methods but I still like China's space feats and I could be a Korean, an African-Morrocan or a blonde haired fellow with blue eyes living in Canada's Ottawa for all you guys know.

CIclops is a Bush-fan and we all know where GCNRevenger stands, he is a died hard GOP-fan and never said anything good about liberal-Democrats and their space plans. GCNRevenger would love to see NASA flying Nuke-powered craft all over the solar system ( I am not against this idea as long as it is safe ). He also seems to hate Lefties or Greens for cutting his Nuke-wings, although this was more got to do with public-opinion than politics because no sane person wants to be breating Nuclear fallout for the next decade. Some massive changes have been happening to America while the BushJnr Admin have been in power. He first tried to get a rise out fo China like a perverted peeking tom sending his spy-planes to stick his nose in Chinese affairs. An even bigger event occured when Osama in Afghan-land sent his Saudi hijackers crashing into the WTC in NYC, the world felt America's pain and most of the world was united in helping the USA try and destroy the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Finally the world seemed to return to some form of normality but that was until Bush-Jnr started banging the war-drums again and this time his target was Iraq. Bush-Jnr seemed to be getting very annoyed with ideas like the international court, the UN, international weapons inspectors, the Hague, like the admins of Reagan and Daddy-Bush he reversed all former policies on gay-rights, medicare, big-gov, enviornment or Kyoto, Isreal-Arab peace treaties, and made more advances in their favourite areas pushing ideas like military spending, minimal-gov, tax-breaks for the rich, reduction of public services, anti-gay slogans, reduction of funds for public education and de-regulation. Then in 2003 we saw the tragic Columbia fireball as it disintegrated over Texas. Apart from the NASA disater GW seemed to be getting his things done but he had a big stumble when he went into Iraq too quick with a lot of false evidence. With the Russians, Europeans and Chinese doing new things in space and Shuttle grounded, Bush tried to comfort America's space-people and science-fans by doing a Kennedy impression but rather than giving NASA a good JFK vision he just dusted off some old grandiose NASA projects with the GOP stamp on them.

The Bush Cheney admin had started to greatly weaken before the election of 2004, Kerry and Edwards seemed to have a lot in their favour. The economy was weak, the dollar was becoming worthless, Iraq was turning into a disater and seemed to be a war waged for invisible WMDs or perhaps to settle an old score between Saddam and Daddy-Bush dynasty and ever since his VSE speech Bush seemed to have totally forgotten the word 'NASA'. The VSE started to get dim, the US was facing a large deficit, the dollar was poor, homeless numbers were bad, the USA had record debt levels so many NASA programs saw cuts, Kerry on the other hand was willing to talk about the Moon, NASA and Mars - he said he supported Space but the USA must also balance its books and Kerry's plans seemed ok but not great. However the Bush-Cheney made a big comeback with ideas on science and social issues such as stem-cells, gay-weddings, creationism, and the shocking social issues such as janet jackson's boobs....the Deep-south, evangelicas and middle America loved these ideas so Bush and Cheney were back and the grandiose NASA vision with the GOP stamp would be pushed ahead again or at least be outsourced to India.

The Bush-Cheney admin have also resurrected many Nixon and Reagan era ideas such as opposing the greens, containment of communists, defeating the leftists and pushing down socialists or liberals. There is now huge opposition to United States foreign policy, the US enjoyed some early advances with the far-right conservatives of Europe but now there is trouble with Spanish and Polish having a change of mind and much of Europe now going left. France and Russia were the most unhappy and the Canadians have also great opposed Rummy's Starwars ideology. Most of Latin-America has now gone left while the USA is struggling to keep friends. The Russians have a growing economy, the EU and its Euro are doing well with the Euro zone expanding as the years go on, the Europeans also like the idea of the Kyoto Protocol. Europe has become an economic superpower while the Chinese are growing rapidly. The Europeans have been thinking of setting up a giant army like China or the USSR had - this would be called the european rapid reaction force. Recently the French and Germans were thinking of selling arms to China, and a split between European matters and US matters came even bigger when the Pentagon made a threat that it may shoot down the ESA's network of GPS-Galileo satellites.

Right now there is conflict around the world and USA's troops are streched and weakened - a third world war may be coming, and this war will be bigger than any other. Unlike Worldwar-2 where the US had chosen to fight with an Alliance of Canadians, De Gaul, Churchill, Aussies, Chinese, Russians... this time USA seems to have chosen the wrong side and make an alliance with right-wing conservative nations and people such as India, African nations, John Howard, TonyBlair, Unitedstates-of-Afghanistan, Pakistan against liberal, against socialist, Russian, Chinese or European intrests...the only thing is the British and Australians seem to be getting tired of Bush and Chirac and Blair may respond by hitting back at Bush with missiles if the USA attacks European satellites, much of Asia and almost the whole of Latin America seens to have drifted to the left side. A US attack on the EUs Galileo satellites would be a dire mistake by the Conservative-Republican rulers, the EU is already becoming an economic superpower and each European country is well equipped with a powerful army and military aircraft. The White House admin are in serious difficulty they are now having trouble struggling with the costs of the Iraq war, the pension system going to the dogs, US ports getting sold to the Arab world, social security getting looted and the scandal of Hurricane Katrina it is now unlikely to find billions more for space travel. GCNRevenger I love how you try to play the old Abe 'race-card' should I remind you of the Conservative GOP's policy on race ? Try to remember that the Republican party have changed quiet a bit since the days of Abraham Lincoln, although they still have a few token African-Americans on their team but AA-groups, Jesse Jackons and Civil rights groups have called these people wolves in sheeps clothing. The Republican party have done a big U-turn on liberal policy since the days of Abe while the Democrat party have done a big reversal on their ideas for slavery and conservative plans during the civil war - and if you're looking for liberal today then you gotta go democrat. The GOP's recent policy on race is really bad : Cheney wanted Mandela back in jail, Bush doesn't seem to care for the human rights of Asians or Arabs, Barbara calls gay marriage disgusting, flying of confederate flags, Cheney supported the Aparthied and attends CCC ( uptown Klan ) gatherings, minorities and poor Americans starved to death during Katrina and while people begged for Huricane aid Bush played tunes on Gee-tar-One.
http://soundroots.org/uploaded_images/b … 779638.jpg
As for the NASA vision - let's just see how far it goes but breaking up federal programs and outsourcing was always part of the GOP's plan.

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-21 15:53:14

I wan't meaning that you were pro-China or pro-Chinese Yang, I mean you sound like you are anti-Indian, declaring loudly that their fairly impressive academic achievement was meaningless.

By paragraph:

#2: Personal attack on me and irrelivent politics
#3: More political statements and falsehoods, complete with the "Bush lied" lie
#4: Politics again, complete with contempt for Americans
#5 Just politics, except the last few words, which are irrelivent too
#6 first half: All the same, except with Extra Conspiracy Theories(tm)
#6 second half: Personal attack, espousing the disgusting racist notion that Black Republicans are "wolves," libeling Republicans in general (who is playing the racist card now?), and parroting Hurricane Katrina responsability mythos.

And to top it off, apparently what Yang intends to be an anti-Bush propoganda poster, followed by more conspiracy theories. Wow Yang, you have really out-done yourself this time.

Commodore · 2006-03-21 15:59:34

I'd like to know were people got the idea that signing any agreement with India is automatically outsourcing.

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-22 03:43:44

It will be outsoucring both technology and jobs to India, what makes India so special that it can get the red carpet from NASA. The USA is already thinking of cutting its joint missions with Brazil, Japan or Europe ( LISA, Dawn, ISS, Europa...etc ) :evil: in favour of joint Indo-US missions, NASA seems to want to break away from the Russian pads and the USA also snubbed the Chinese program and rejected China's offer for Space cooperation. As for the USA's threat to blow up the EU's Galileo satellites, I think there could be something very sinister in this. :x

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-22 09:35:27

Again, where are you getting these ideas, Eurolauncher?

The ISS debacle is a special case, that it is so expensive that NASA may not be able to survive if we keep in the program. If that means cutting everybody else loose, thats too bad, but better then NASA dying a slow death.

The Europa mission was what was left over after the silly Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter project was scraped, being that it was just an excuse to build a portable space nuclear reactor in the first place.

LISA is another one of those astronomer/physicist toys, and frankly our priorities are shifting away from them and to exploring our own solar system, rather then trying to take pictures of other ones or fund the NSFs physics experiments for them.

Wasnt Dawn that asteroid mission that was recently put on "indefinate hold?" The problem with it is that the builders either couldn't estimate the price, couldn't control the price, or just plain lied about the price. Either way, it doesn't matter what nationality the builders are, it was the right decision to cut their funding before it spiraled completly out of control.

Frankly, I don't think China is quite ready technologically to help NASA, and politically signing on with China government-to-government is a big deal and not like business-to-business arrangements.

And of course, why shouldn't we plan to disable the Galileo network? Satelite guided munitions and navigation are changing the face of war, and if any (any) enemy uses them against us, one way or the other the system would have to be shut down in the war zone. If Galileo's owners won't do it peaceably, then we would be well justified doing it militarily, since Galileo's operators would de facto be giving material aid and supplying advanced weapons to this enemies to kill Americans or our allies by their inaction.

Thats plenty of cause to shoot down the whole network, just as it would if an enemy of Europe/China/whoever demanded we shut down the GPS network in the warzone and refused. Its just military nessesity, and we are being courteous to discuss it with Galileo's operators.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-04-16 02:19:18

I wouldn't put it past George Bush to try and outsource NASA overseas. But, if he try it, it will basically be the end of NASA, because congress will refuse fund NASA if it not being both managed and the equipment is being send into space is not built inside the United States. If I were a congressman and George Bush took an attitude that he was going to outsource NASA and he not coming off his position no matter what happens, then I would take the opposing view, that NASA not going to get any funding period. My personal attitudes it, finance American to build space to go into space, but I'm not going to fund other countries to build space to go into space. I live in place that has a heavy concentration of Aero-Space manufacturing companies. We have Lockeed, Boeing, Bell helicopter and other companies like that in the Dallas Fort Worth Area that could manufacture those things. If our congressman agreed to outsource those contracts overseas instead of bring them here, when he comes back to us, we would probably eat him live when we run into him.
One of the benefits of having an organization like NASA, is the fact that you will create good paying jobs in the United States. If George Bush thinks that he can outsource NASA jobs overseas and just give us the bills to pay without having the jobs that go with, well screw that. We would not be getting a return back to the US economy on money that we spend in space and would only excellarate the deficit problem that the United States currently has down hear, which is currently over 600 billion dollars a year.
As bad as the support of the American people is about the space program is, it will get whole lot worse and even I would not support it either. I’m as about pro space as you can get, but I couldn’t support something like that.
Larry,

Outsource NASA's Aeronautics
link
[
NASA Langley courting Airbus
The NIA and the taxpayer-funded research center are talking with the European firm.
...NASA Langley is seeking to fill a $50 million gap in its 2007 budget, mostly because of cuts in aeronautics research. The center has sought to re-create itself by participating in projects involving space science and exploration.
Exhibits accompanying Peake's e-mail cite work for Airbus that would be performed during the 2006-07 period covered by NASA's 2007 budget. That work includes better understanding of airplane fuselage materials, innovative techniques for airplane assembly, materials for fasteners, coatings and sealants, and metallurgy.

NASA to outsource from ISRO? India’s Space program ranked as most cost effective and efficient!
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-05c-04.asp
According to some sources NASA may be outsourcing some of its component space research and operations processes from ISRO.

The "Geek Gap" (Excerpt)
by William Norman Grigg
April 17, 2006
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/pu … 3679.shtml
The erosion of America's manufacturing base is undermining our research and development capacity -- and, unless reversed, will lead to a shortage of hi-tech engineers.

GCNRevenger · 2006-04-16 05:43:25

Here we go again... one more time, NASA isn't "outsourcing"

Individual research centers aren't "NASA," they are more like national laboratories except with a NASA sticker on the front of the building. But I digress, Langley obviously started courting Airbus on its own and isn't by any means an offical move by NASA brass.

Airbus isn't even really a French company, rather largely owned by the British and Dutch, but still Congress would never permit it.

Oh, and your second link about outsourcing to India:

"According to some sources NASA may be outsourcing"

*Bzzzz* wrong answer! Anonymous "some sources" doesn't count: its a fluff piece to stoke Indian readers based on rumor, just like most everything you say.
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The world for NASA is changed, for that last thirty years the agency has been stuck in neuteral and has been trying to make everybody that works for them happy, one big government aerospace works project for the most part... but things have changed.

The flimsy justification for this way of life at NASA will be gone in as little as three more years, and the new directive that will justify the agencies' exsistance is ambitious, more ambitious then the old ways can support.

NASA also has to set new priorities to match its new justification to exsist, which in this case means more spaceflight and less aeronautics. Since Langley deals with aeronautics, its importance is thus lower then it used to be.

NASA must reallign its reasources, which means that it can no longer afford to try and please everybody. Thus, Langley's days may be numberd, and so they are desperatly seeking to save their laboratory by seeking funds elsewhere.

Its a hard thing to close research centers, but it has to be done if NASA is to suceed and survive in its present scope.

Edit: To quote M. Griffin, who said not once but twice, loudly for emphasis, that if costs cannot be controlled and reduced versus what they are now, "we will be put out of business!"

Martian Republic · 2006-04-16 08:34:37

I GCNRevenger is right that there will have to be a readdress of the NASA Space Community and maybe even the Private Space Enterprises or the Private Research facilities. Things will have to change, but I would go in the opposite than GCNRevenger is going in. He would collapse everything down to try an accomplish his goal and would blow the wall out and expand everything to accomplish my goals. For me the space program is a job creation program along with developing new technologies and the stated goal of what we want to do is the mechanism for achieving those other goals. Otherwise, I see no purpose in going into space, although I am still a Star Trek Fan.

On these point I will always be in disagreement with GCNRevenger, but we are in agreement that there has to be a change in the way things are being done.

I probably should qualify what I am saying. NASA operation by itself, I might consider going the way that GCNRevenger would go. But if it was bundled with GM, Ford and the rest of the Aero-Space industries, I would savage the whole mess and would not allow it to go down. We probably have three times the industrial capacity to produce Car than we have the market to sell those cars in. I would not let two thirds of my manufacturing capacity disappear from inside the United State from either or both of those industries. If we are way over the capacity of building car and air planes, then I would find something else for them to build, like subways, super trains or possibly a skunk works/lunar base on the moon. Keeping those factories open would be my number one priority and millions of people that will be working at those factories. I already know how I intend to pay for it as long as I have a productive economy to work with and government generated credit to finance it.

Larry,

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-04-22 13:37:06

I'd like to know were people got the idea that signing any agreement with India is automatically outsourcing.

Now it's outsourcing to China ?

President George W. Bush offered Chinese President Hu Jintao on Thursday greater U.S. cooperation on space exploration and planned to send the head of NASA to China later this year.
news
Bush was "trying to deepen the relationship between our two societies and our two cultures," said Dennis Wilder, an Asia specialist at the White House national security council.
"There are some things that the Chinese also have in terms of sensor technologies and information that we are interested in, in terms of global climate and other issues," Wilder said.

Bush offers China space cooperation
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Bush-o … 11128.html

GCNRevenger · 2006-04-22 14:03:28

Problem: The scientists are whining that their "global warming" (bah) detector satelites are getting old and will have to be replaced soon. But, NASA has better things to do.

Solution: Build copies of the fancy sensors and let China fool with them, they could use better planned farming with the help of such satelites anyway.

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