Mars Science Lab getting cuts ?

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-08-04 16:44:03

I've just noticed some more grumbling on the whole cost of exploration and more moaning from news sources and NASA people. It seems the MSL Mars laboratory mission may be getting some cutting. NASA doesn't really have any Mars spacecraft on the books beyond the projected MSL-2009. MSL mast will also hold a unique hybrid optical instrument, never before flown to Mars, but this may see cuts. Newly appointed NASA chief Michael Griffin is looking at what can and can not be done aswell, plus there are Congress and budget questions. MSL is still under review they won't be launching 2 labs or two Rovers now.

Nothing as serious as MTO, but it has some pressure now and budget questions. Phoenix Mars lander and MRO seem to be fine and will get the go-ahead.

MSL due in 2009 might be pushed back to 2010. NASA's cost are staring to rise and nuclear-powered Mars Science Laboratory, or MSL, might even getting knocked from 2009 to 2011.

Did anyone hear any more news on this

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-08-28 12:18:22

MSL info

www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/mars_science_lab_040211.html

SpaceNut · 2005-08-28 20:39:05

We have seen this article in the old Next Generation Rover - ...Mars Science Laboratory

It was thought back when it came out that it was a good effort to do twice the science at nearly the same cost when looking at spirit, oportunity and how they have preformed. But with the recent cuts to make room for more cash for the CEV developement one could look at this as delaying what is not necessary for a moon direct plan.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-09-01 09:01:47

Thanks for the link Spacenut

let's hope they can push ahead with this mission nonetheless or find alternative means to fund the mission

EuroLauncher · 2005-12-18 21:22:43

the Mars MTO is dead but check this

future laser communications ?
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1436

cIclops · 2006-01-18 06:53:02

MSL appears to be in good shape according to this Space.com article published today.

Mike Griffin was asked about the project yesterday at the HQ press conference and gave no indication that there would be any change in the 2009 launch date. However he did hint at budget problems - not surprising if the $1.5 billion cost that Space.com mentions is true.

BTW the mission website has been updated recently, lots of new stuff there.

Rxke · 2006-01-18 08:23:09

I'm a bit worried... 2009 launch and they say 'considering nuclear power source'

If they're still in the 'considering-phase', they'll have little time to actually build it?
Or are RTG's considered to be fairly easy to implement, do they have some ready-off the shelf hardware still lying around?

I'm asking because I thought i read somewhere RTGs were being phased out... No new ones being built the last couple of years.

cIclops · 2006-01-18 09:09:06

I'm a bit worried... 2009 launch and they say 'considering nuclear power source'
If they're still in the 'considering-phase', they'll have little time to actually build it?
Or are RTG's considered to be fairly easy to implement, do they have some ready-off the shelf hardware still lying around?
I'm asking because I thought i read somewhere RTGs were being phased out... No new ones being built the last couple of years.

Griffin was asked this very question too and he said there was no problem producing an RTG for MSL ... a transcript of his comments is here

Apparently there is still some discussion inside the project about using solar power instead of an RTG, but given the power problems of the MERs it would seem unlikely that it would use solar cells.

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spacewiki

Rxke · 2006-01-18 09:29:17

Thanks for the link, clclops, yay, 'nother bit of reading ahead!

(EDIT: From the pressconference: )

IRENE KLOTZ: Irene Klotz with Reuters. I seem to remember... ... a couple of years ago that the DOE supply of the RTGs was almost at an end. I know that the RTGs on New Horizons was reserved and I don’t think that there was anything else left.
GRIFFIN: In fact, NASA will be using an RTG for the Mars science laboratory, so this is not our last RTG mission and it is far from our first. Cassini, Galileo, Voyagers, many others before have used RTGs and many will again. Production of RTGs within the Department of Energy, right now, is limited and steps are being taken to address that. We don’t fly them often enough that it’s a problem right now. So, again, Mars science lab, our next mission to Mars, will carry an RTG.

cIclops · 2006-01-20 09:57:36

MSL is getting closer, the announcement for the first landing site workshop is here

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spacewiki

cIclops · 2006-02-06 15:36:27

Extract from NASA's 2007 Budget Request (5.1MB PDF]

The 2009 Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) will be a long-duration, roving science laboratory that will be provide a major leap in surface measurement technology focusing on Mars habitability. Detailed measurements will be made of element composition, elemental isotopes and abundance, mineralogy, and organic compounds to determine if Mars has, or ever had, an environment capable of supporting life.

Schedule

Initial Confirmation Review (ICR): 2nd QTR FY 2006
Critical Design Review (CDR): 4th QTR FY 2007
Start Assembly, Test, and Launch Operations (ATLO): 2nd QTR FY 2008
Launch: November 2009
End of Prime Mission: October 2012

Budget Request $ Millions

FY2005 117.5
FY2006 253.4
FY2007 347.9
FY2008 285.6
FY2009 231.0
FY2010 50.4
FY2011 41.2

That makes a grand budget total of $1327 million

SpaceNut · 2006-02-07 08:36:28

Based on this I wonder how much cost will be added when it goes into extended mode of exploration....

EuroLauncher · 2006-02-08 20:02:14

MSL looks ok now, but it might face a tight budget
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4056
Even planetary exploration's job-one that has seen the Martian landscape increasingly covered with rover tracks was also not immune to NASA's budget chops : NASA's Red Planet research budget has been cut by a few hundred million. This includes the cancellation MSR Mission and the Mars Telecommunications Orbiter ? The CEV/CLV budget is getting damn near close to the massive Shuttle budget. Cancelled/Delayed indefinitely - Mars research has been cut by $243.3 million to $700.2 million. This reflects the cancellation or indefinite postponement of missions such as the Mars Sample Return Mission and the MTO

Rxke · 2006-02-09 02:32:29

This reflects the cancellation or indefinite postponement of missions such as the Mars Sample Return Mission and the MTO

Wouldn't it be a little ironic if ESA does a Sample Return first? Seems like their funding is not getting any cuts, they even got raised allotments, yay!

cIclops · 2006-02-13 13:12:22

MSL looks ok now, but it might face a tight budget
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4056
NASA's Red Planet research budget has been cut by a few hundred million. This includes the cancellation MSR Mission and the Mars Telecommunications Orbiter ? The CEV/CLV budget is getting damn near close to the massive Shuttle budget. Cancelled/Delayed indefinitely - Mars research has been cut by $243.3 million to $700.2 million. This reflects the cancellation or indefinite postponement of missions such as the Mars Sample Return Mission and the MTO

NASA has not cut the Mars research budget. What Griffin has done is reduce the *future increases* planned for that research. MGS, Odyessy, 2xMERs, MRO, Phoenix and MSL are all fully funded and approved. That takes the programme out to 2012. MSL alone will cost $1.3 billion, how much more money do you think Mars research can justify?

BTW MTO and MSR were never approved, they were only in study and MSR would have been enormously expensive, costs over $2 billion were expected. The CEV budget is ramping up as STS ramps down, most of the money will come from there.

RTTM is essential in the Vision to get to Mars, what would you rather have, more robots at Mars or people?

edit: Opps my error, MSL is not approved yet ... should be 2nd QTR FY 2006

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-03-26 10:48:31

edit: Opps my error, MSL is not approved yet ... should be 2nd QTR FY 2006

MSL is going ahead no matter what, there have been cuts in the Mars missions but they are really keen on getting MSL to the red-planet and they have been recently bleeding money out of the rest of the Mars program to make sure this happens. MSL will fly you can be 99.99% sure of that ! However cuts are starting to run deep so anything beyond 2009 or other probes beyond 2011 such as MSR might not be going.

cIclops · 2006-03-26 11:43:34

MSL is going ahead no matter what, there have been cuts in the Mars missions but they are really keen on getting MSL to the red-planet and they have been recently bleeding money out of the rest of the Mars program to make sure this happens. MSL will fly you can be 99.99% sure of that ! However cuts are starting to run deep so anything beyond 2009 or other probes beyond 2011 such as MSR might not be going.

What do you know that we don't?

The budget for MSL is already at $1327 million and the project has not yet begun development. The track record is not good for expensive missions and a major escalation in cost will kill it. Griffin has shown that he is very serious about cost, and so he should be. This rover will use an entirely new landing technology, will be nuclear powered and more complex than any unmanned lander ever built. On the positive side it does have a lot of heritage from MER and Pathfinder, and a highly experienced team working on it.

BTW MSR is not in the budget plans at all. If it happens it will be 2013 or later. However the AO for the 2011 mission was recently released, details are in this thread, so there does seem to be 'life' after MSL ...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-03-26 12:52:43

What do you know that we don't?

Its nothing special that I know, just some info from reports on MSL workshops and MSL meetings - thanks to the lastest budget there are new cuts in the Mars science and Mars exploration. After the Vikings Mars was forgotten but there was a re-birth of acitivity in the 90s and with all the Mars activity in the past weeks and years ( Pathfinder-Sojourner, MRO, Mars Polar lander, MERs, MGS... ) it would be hard to imagine the USA turing away from the Red-Planet again but that's what they are doing now. Unmanned Human Precursors are getting cut such as the Testbeds, MSR, Mars-airplane, MTO, ST-9 Demo, are getting cut however people connected to the MSL team say the MSL mission will fly no matter what ! and they will even bleed cash out of the rest of the Mars program to make it so !

John Creighton · 2006-03-26 22:07:32

What do you know that we don't?
Its nothing special that I know, just some info from reports on MSL workshops and MSL meetings - thanks to the lastest budget there are new cuts in the Mars science and Mars exploration. After the Vikings Mars was forgotten but there was a re-birth of acitivity in the 90s and with all the Mars activity in the past weeks and years ( Pathfinder-Sojourner, MRO, Mars Polar lander, MERs, MGS... ) it would be hard to imagine the USA turing away from the Red-Planet again but that's what they are doing now. Unmanned Human Precursors are getting cut such as the Testbeds, MSR, Mars-airplane, MTO, ST-9 Demo, are getting cut however people connected to the MSL team say the MSL mission will fly no matter what ! and they will even bleed cash out of the rest of the Mars program to make it so !

I don’t know what I think of this. The mars science lab sounds vastly superior to previous rover missions. However, all programs must keep there costs somewhat under control. Every mission has a price where it is just not worth it.

Commodore · 2006-03-27 18:29:56

Mars is still aways off, and the intervening decades are going to be Moon heavy. A MSR is going to be less important for a long time, and when the time comes we can be far more productive a decade or two down the road than we can by breaking the bank now.

I'd like to see a series of combination missions featuring peices of previous missions. A MSL rover and long lasting RTG powered weather station on the surface, and a MRO/MTO style orbiter with surface communications and GPS capability launched in a single package. If you launch one every launch window, you can keep cost low, with only moderate, evoloutionary upgrades in instruments, while covering several, if not dozens of sites.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-03-28 07:36:39

Mars is still aways off, and the intervening decades are going to be Moon heavy. A MSR is going to be less important for a long time

Less important - only for NASA

Other folks like the Euros and Russia have an MSR planned
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4539
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1448

Read the future headlines
'NASA upstaged by Japanese MSR and Russians - Ruskies find life on on the red-planet'

Subheadline
'Russia considers future use of Martian microbes as a bio-weapon for defensive use
http://studies.agentura.ru/tr/bioweapon/chemical.gif
http://www.mos.org/cst/article/1717/image_11741.jpg

sub-sub-headline
'Iranians willing to buy more missiles'

backpage news-item
'Jeb Bush and Vice President latino George P Bush say OH CRAP !!'
http://originaldo.com/jeb-bush-miami-vice.jpg
That's right boys - the whitehouse dynasty is more 'oh crap' family heritage
Maybe we can start asking Schwarzenegger or Howard Dean to get our ass to Mars

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-28 10:17:04

Extract from NASA's 2007 Budget Request (5.1MB PDF]
The 2009 Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) will be a long-duration, roving science laboratory that will be provide a major leap in surface measurement technology focusing on Mars habitability. Detailed measurements will be made of element composition, elemental isotopes and abundance, mineralogy, and organic compounds to determine if Mars has, or ever had, an environment capable of supporting life.
Schedule
Initial Confirmation Review (ICR): 2nd QTR FY 2006
Critical Design Review (CDR): 4th QTR FY 2007
Start Assembly, Test, and Launch Operations (ATLO): 2nd QTR FY 2008
Launch: November 2009
End of Prime Mission: October 2012
Budget Request $ Millions
FY2005 117.5
FY2006 253.4
FY2007 347.9
FY2008 285.6
FY2009 231.0
FY2010 50.4
FY2011 41.2

That makes a grand budget total of $1327 million

Thanks for the list, we've got a few more years before this one gets launched

cIclops · 2006-03-29 11:34:24

Lockheed Martin has been awarded a preliminary design and concept study start-up contract by NASA for the MSL aeroshell system.

The MSL heatshield will be the largest ever built at about 4.5 meters (15 feet) in diameter. For comparison, the heatshields of the Mars Exploration Rovers measured 2.6 meters (8.5 feet) and Apollo capsule heatshields measured 3.9 meters (12.8 feet).

Press release here

SpaceNut · 2006-03-30 07:38:50

Lots of knowledge by Lockheed being brought here to bar on MSL heatshields design..

[url=http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/airlines/article/0,2777,DRMN_23912_4581082,00.html]Lockheed lands NASA Mars deal
Jeffco firm to build heat-resistant space capsule for NASA[/url]

"Lockheed Martin's successful heritage with aeroshells and thermal protection systems spans more than three decades, starting with the Viking missions in the 1970s and continuing with the Pathfinder, Genesis, Stardust and Mars Exploration Rovers missions," Jim Crocker, Lockheed Martin Space Systems' vice president of civil space, said in a news release.
A key ingredient for the company's heat shields grows on trees. The outer bark of cork oaks is ground into a powder and mixed in a vat with tiny glass spheres and glue at the company's Waterton Canyon plant in Jefferson County.
The mix has the consistency of wet sand when workers pack it by hand onto the outer surface of the capsule.

cIclops · 2006-04-02 13:13:24

New article in March 2006 issue of AiAA Aerospace America about MRO, Phoenix and MSL

“This project has been going on since 2000 in one form or another,” says JPL’s Richard Cook, project manager for MSL. “Right now we’re running about 200 people."

It's real!

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2005-08-04 16:44:03

Re: Mars Science Lab getting cuts ?

#2 2005-08-28 12:18:22

Re: Mars Science Lab getting cuts ?

#3 2005-08-28 20:39:05

Re: Mars Science Lab getting cuts ?

#4 2005-09-01 09:01:47

Re: Mars Science Lab getting cuts ?

#5 2005-12-18 21:22:43

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#6 2006-01-18 06:53:02

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#7 2006-01-18 08:23:09

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#8 2006-01-18 09:09:06

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#9 2006-01-18 09:29:17

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#10 2006-01-20 09:57:36

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#11 2006-02-06 15:36:27

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#12 2006-02-07 08:36:28

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#13 2006-02-08 20:02:14

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#14 2006-02-09 02:32:29

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#15 2006-02-13 13:12:22

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#16 2006-03-26 10:48:31

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#17 2006-03-26 11:43:34

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#18 2006-03-26 12:52:43

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#19 2006-03-26 22:07:32

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#20 2006-03-27 18:29:56

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#21 2006-03-28 07:36:39

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#22 2006-03-28 10:17:04

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#23 2006-03-29 11:34:24

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#24 2006-03-30 07:38:50

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#25 2006-04-02 13:13:24

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