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Despite politicians saying this isn't a space race, the evidence suggests otherwise. The worlds space countries are all reducing time scales, and increasing science money everytime somebody else does, whether for competition reasons or they are freaking out on global warming or some other earthly danger.
So long as a nuke world war three doesn't happen, I think humanity is finally on the fast track towards space expansion and colonization.
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No, it really isn't...
1) There still is no economic drive to do it of any kind other then satelites or the trivial suborbital tourism. Lunar platinum is still a ways off.
2) There is no public ground swell for the idea, nobody really "believes" in it yet hardly.
3) The technology just isn't there. Either the space elevator or a superhigh tech honest-to-goodness "no really!" totally reuseable single-stage RLV will make space cheap enough to colonize. Ever. I don't think we will be seeing such a craft any time soon.
Then there is nuclear technology... high efficiency and high thrust engines are non-negotiable for interplanetary colonization. We either have it, or we don't go.
The secret, and really the only option there is, is to make a nuclear reaction that runs at extremely high temperatures, tens of thousands of degrees! Right now we only have vauge, foggy notions about how to create and control such a very high energy reaction.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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Well, apparently, capital hill just had a space meeting where they seem to find a problem with either going with a man colonization program and cutting science education money, or keeping science education money so we are able to educate our future science people, but then not establish ourselves out in space. Either way, america seems screwed unless we 1) raise taxes, or 2) cut other government programs to fund both above programs. Both of these options are dependent on 'politics.'
As I've said to a very low-brow on the societal totem pole(a very poor guy moneywise, but exception in intelligence), america is dependent on India educated scientists; the problem here is that we either cut them off so we give our guys a job, or we take them in and kill education here in america; either way, america is fundamentally flawed and screwed.
If you try to close yourself off in this universe, you meet problems; america has just sold its ports to the middle east no matter how safe; this is one sign of a crack in the modern day roman empire(america); the two problems above point to some more problems.
Welp, I'm thinking more and more to work my way out of america.
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to reply more directly to GNCR, there was this new type of rocket that fed the fuel directly through the pumps; apparently, they've already successfully tested this new rocket technology. The new rocket technology apparently allows for hotter burning.
Also, we could leave the second or third stages for a nuclear-electric rocket to turn on when in orbit to get whereever else we want to in the solar system.
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Despite politicians saying this isn't a space race, the evidence suggests otherwise. The worlds space countries are all reducing time scales, and increasing science money everytime somebody else does, whether for competition reasons or they are freaking out on global warming or some other earthly danger.
So long as a nuke world war three doesn't happen, I think humanity is finally on the fast track towards space expansion and colonization.
Sure there is evidence that more countries are spending more money on space than ever before, but there is no "space race" between them. Competition does exist between groups of scientists building better instruments (Herschel v Sophia) and in exploration (MSL v ExoMars). Many reasons are given to get funding including science (JWST), exploration (CEV), politics (ISS), technology (SMART-1) and prestige (Shenzhou). The track has more runners with better equipment but there is a long long way to go before colonization will begin.
[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond - triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space] #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps] - videos !!![/url]
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The track has more runners with better equipment but there is a long long way to go before colonization will begin.
New ideas, more researchers, interest in space is increasing.
Just a few more years to boiling point.
The future is electric:
http://www.adastrarocket.com/VASIMR.html
http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/propulsion.html
http://monolith.caltech.edu/Papers/ParkinThruster.pdf
http://monolith.caltech.edu/Papers/ParkinLauncher.pdf
But will take a few decades.
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While foriegn nations may be in some sort of race the US race though seems to be with the giants against the altern-x`ers to get to orbit at a very low cost. A step was made the purchase of Kistler.
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"...america is dependent on India educated scientists; the problem here is that we either cut them off so we give our guys a job, or we take them in and kill education here in america; either way, america is fundamentally flawed and screwed.
If you try to close yourself off in this universe, you meet problems; america has just sold its ports to the middle east no matter how safe; this is one sign of a crack in the modern day roman empire(america); the two problems above point to some more problems.
Welp, I'm thinking more and more to work my way out of america."
Please do, and good riddance. Oh, and its America, not america, thank you very much.
I disagree that we are "dependant" on India, but I do not pretend to believe that we would be doing as well today without immigrants. But I digress, if America is a "fading Empire," then its the whole world thats doomed, because we are so well off by comparison. Germany, France, Japan, Russia, Canada, etc etc etc are faltering economically, and I think that China will be unable to maintain its breathless pace much longer on the account of political and infrastructure pressures to slow down. Demographically, America is doing pretty well with a break-even population of people who by and large have values that coincide with our own, while Europe has imported many millions who do not.
And our immigrants are either educated or at least seem to have a good work ethic, but anyway America has always been a nation of immigrants, so why is this such a bad thing if they wish to become honest (and not illegal) Americans? Ethnic Russians, Japanese, and Germans will become an endangerd species at this rate in a generation or two. I am sure, though, we could get by just fine without you, flashgordon.
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"to reply more directly to GNCR, there was this new type of rocket that fed the fuel directly through the pumps; apparently, they've already successfully tested this new rocket technology. The new rocket technology apparently allows for hotter burning.
Also, we could leave the second or third stages for a nuclear-electric rocket to turn on when in orbit to get whereever else we want to in the solar system."
I don't think you understand about how much hotter they need to run, flashgordon, what is needed for colonization is not a nickel-and-dime improvement, a few hundred degrees here or there is not going to change anything. We need a propulsion system that operates in the tens of thousands of degrees kelvin. The very best, most high-tech temperature resistant ceramics can take about 4,000K. No solid engine is ever going to provide the temperatures needed. Ever. There is no trick or clever scheme that will make traditional rocket technology reach the levels of performance needed.
Chemical fuels also have an upper limit to the amount of heat they can generate per mass of propellant, so they have an upper limit to the temperatures they can attain from burning, which we are already at ~85% of with modern engines. Electric rockets, as marsdog seems to be enamored with, suffer from the problem of producing enough power to operate them too: you may have a super-efficient engine, but to produce any practical thrust you have to have vast amounts of power to feed the thing. Today's and even tomorrow's power sources are just not up to the task, something new and better would be needed that generates far more power per mass of generator.
The key to both of these problems is a nuclear reactor/reaction that does away with traditional solid fuel elements, because if it no longer has to be a solid, you can achieve much higher temperatures and/or heat transport. Such a power plant would have no Earthly purpose, because it is easier just to build a bigger solid core reactor and live with the extra mass. This is one reason why colonization is so far off, that such technology will require a large investment, and it can have no other purpose except for space travel.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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flashgordon I agree with GCNRevenger as far as there being a tourist industry in space. Except for maybe a few billionaire going into space for maybe a few hours or maybe a few days, that will be about it as far as the tourist industry in space. It just too basted expensive and there no infrastructure in support a tourist industry in space either. I am a prominent of a two piece shuttle that in theory would be ten twenty times cheaper than the current shuttle launches. Even assuming that we could get it down to ten million dollars a launch for ten passenger and four pilots, that would still be one million dollars a passenger in expenses and no profit. Which would still be way too expensive to build a healthy tourist industry around.
But, as far as colonization or a government sponsored colonization program, well that not totally out of the question. But, we would have to have a government commitment to it. As far as using tax money for colonization, well that not going to happen, because that would be too expensive even for the US Government to fund it even and it would drain the United States financially too much. That where a Hamilton Banking system or which would generate it own credit or and FDR Treasury Department generated Credit would come into play to finance and get the US Economy moving again, in a productive way.
Larry,
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Not even a two-stage spaceplane will be cheap enough for large scale colonization, a single-stage vehicle with a super-advanced Scramjet or burning something better then liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen is a must. Nano-aluminum doped slush hydrogen and cyclic ozone maybe, if we could figure out how to make them.
"As far as using tax money for colonization, well that not going to happen, because that would be too expensive even for the US Government to fund"
and
"a Hamilton Banking system or which would generate it own credit or and FDR Treasury Department generated Credit would come into play to finance and get the US Economy moving again, in a productive way"
...are not reconsilable. If the government can't afford it, printing money ("credit") isn't going to work. The worth of each dollar printed decreases with each additional dollar you print, and so it doesn't really work. The absolute number of dollars is meaningless, their worth is what is really traded in exchange. Also, the notion that all government investment always produces a return is a fallacy, that government investment is not a magical means of multiplying money.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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are the economies really so bad? What's the measure? Is a product one dollar or twenty? If it is value based money, then any measure of economics is ghostly at best; what I point out is fundamental sticking points; you obviously live in an oasis of america versus the reality; how does that great Living Colour song go? dant, dant, dant, i watch t.v. . . . americas doin fine; i look out the window . . . americas doing time . . . I . . . want to know . . . how to get . . . to your . . . america! It's amazing how the most technical and questioning people can still be so conditioned to not question say they're religion, and or, country! Emphasizing the critical thinking aspect of your thinking a little bit more; sure, it is a methodology you could take, but there is also mentality of creativity where you know that if you come up with a creative idea, the idea is certainly both right and wrong; of course, when you want to determine the correctness boundaries, then you can take the skeptics tactick of just denying everything and seeing what comes out!
I of course, will exercise judgement of when to pull up stakes!
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"Emphasizing the critical thinking aspect of your thinking a little bit more; sure, it is a methodology you could take, but there is also mentality of creativity where you know that if you come up with a creative idea, the idea is certainly both right and wrong; of course, when you want to determine the correctness boundaries, then you can take the skeptics tactick of just denying everything and seeing what comes out!"
Are you drunk?
And, as usual, "emphasize critical thinking = think like me"
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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are you?
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are the economies really so bad? What's the measure? Is a product one dollar or twenty? If it is value based money, then any measure of economics is ghostly at best; what I point out is fundamental sticking points; you obviously live in an oasis of america versus the reality; how does that great Living Colour song go? dant, dant, dant, i watch t.v. . . . americas doin fine; i look out the window . . . americas doing time . . . I . . . want to know . . . how to get . . . to your . . . america! It's amazing how the most technical and questioning people can still be so conditioned to not question say they're religion, and or, country! Emphasizing the critical thinking aspect of your thinking a little bit more; sure, it is a methodology you could take, but there is also mentality of creativity where you know that if you come up with a creative idea, the idea is certainly both right and wrong; of course, when you want to determine the correctness boundaries, then you can take the skeptics tactick of just denying everything and seeing what comes out!
I of course, will exercise judgement of when to pull up stakes!
As much as I hate to say it. There more truth your little piece than I would like to admit. Unfortunately, most Americans don't understand what real economics is and they definitely the real American Economic system as seen by Alexander Hamilton and later by Lincoln and still later by FDR. Between the First National Bank and the Second Nation Bank functioned for about forty year of the first fifty years of United States after the American Revolution. Now Hamilton used credit generated through the First National to finance building the United States up. Which is exactly what I said we wanted you use that credit for. If GCNRevenger claims are true, then why did it work for forty years. Able Lincoln use some form of that by giving the Treasury Department the power to generate credit, which they did. We fought a civil war on that credit and we industrialized the North while fighting civil war. After the civil by generating credit, we rebuilt the South, built the transcendental Rail Road, etc. Matter of fact, the United States was stronger after the civil war than before the civil war and not normal for something like that to happen. The United State had become land power and even a world power that could defend itself from an attack from Great Britain even which was the current world power. FDR authorized the Treasury Department the power to generate credit again, like Lincoln did and the Treasury Department generated credit to fund FDR programs. The United State was in the middle of a depression along with the rest of the world. While FDR funding road project and river projects with dams and power plant building also. These projects beside creating cheap power and controlling river that flood, also gave the business sector contracts so they could hire people, which started the US Economy going again. Coming out of the Depression going into FDR investing in the US which got our industry up to speed again and made the United States power house again. Matter of fact, after the United State after about a year in World War II was producing 3/4 of all the air planes that was being produced that year and every year to the end of the war. The Germans probably had the best solder and maybe even the Japanese had better trained solders than the American solder was. But, the American solder had secret weapon, they had the American industrial manufacturing capacity behind them, which was financed through government credit. After the war, we setup the Brinton Wood Agreement, which was fix exchange rate, long term US Government credit to Europe so they could rebuild themselves after that terrible war. If what GCNRevenger is true, then how did both Lincoln and FDR both Treasury generated credit to do what they did? It what Hamilton, Lincoln and FDR did that I am referring to as the American Economic System and not the things that GCNRevenger thinks is economic. It is this economic policies that GCNRevenger rejects ever having existed and he claims that it had never existed.
If GCNRevenger doesn't like my answer as to how it happened and he doesn't, then have him explain how that happened and I don't believe in magic or the secret hand of that pick your pocket in the name market forces or Adam Smith ripe off scam.
Except for economic, GCNRevenger is generally pretty sound on most of what he says about rocket and things like that. More often than not, I generally agree with most of what he has to say.
Larry,
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Don't worry Gordon I was talkig with a few of my mainland pals and humanity will be forced to evolve sooner or later despite the Katrina blunder and Iraq fiasco, pathetic earthlings it's such a pity the American flame has burnt out so sudden becuase they had such great potential.
'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )
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As GCN guite rightly notes until access to space is a lot cheaper then there will be no large scale drive to space. I have said this before that until there is a need to go to space that increases the need for cheaper access, then no one will pay for the development of that cheaper access.
This applies to Russia and China too. Currently there benefiting from a goverment that can spare the cash out of the budget and of course they dont need to pay as much to there army of workers and with wages lower so is the cost of development and building. But this will change and we can see it now as both Russia and China are centers of inflation. Comes of being successful, they will have to pay there workers more and there is more and more essential demands on there fiscal budgets than to pay for space missions.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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what's those calcuations that the worlds governments spend more money on cosmetics than space travel; i somehow don't think that cost is an objective.
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