God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

clark · 2002-12-12 09:28:59

This thread begins with a declaration that God cannot be known, or understood. Then we are provided a version of a knowable god, and a knowable creation.

We have names and numbers, order, even a time line. From the chaos we achieve recognition of god and creation.

Creation is then imbued with very human characteristics, and so the establishment of humanity as an aspect of god is established. We now move humanity, self, from the realm of beast to that of divine.

Nothing established as infinite possibility, for in nothing, there is everything and anything. At the point of creation, there is a loss of divinity, of grace. Creation becomes the act of nothing retaining the possibility of everything to becoming something with no possibility of being everything. Creation is loss. Destruction becomes the return to nothing imbued with the possibility of becoming anything.

From this realization we extrapolate that to be is to be less, and to not be is to be a return to something more.

Now we have established lines demarcating value, where the return to nothingness is considered to be a return to infinite possibility, and the actuality of existence is the limitation of what is possible.

Now we have a theme, a structure.

Is it any wonder it is repeated in every religion? Every belief?

Atheism is merely the antithesis of this. It is a reversal of the valuation of creation versus destruction, yet it is no less a dogma than the ones it rejects.

It doesn't matter what you believe, a particular god, no god, or multiple gods, it's all the same.

clark · 2002-12-12 12:23:02

Here is my take on "Ain"

Between the vastness of two objects lies Ain. Ain is the everything-nothing. It is that which is not, which is. The air you breathe is not Ain, for air is something. Ain is not the ground upon which your feet touch, for you can touch and feel the ground. Ain is exsistence; It simply is.

We do not move through Ain. We do not feel Ain. We cannot measure Ain. It is measurement. It is feeling. It is movement. It simply is.

We are not aspects of Ain. Ain did not create us. Ain is perception, we understand it only as much as we perceive Ain itself.

There is only that which is, and that which is Ain. An object is. A flower is. A ball is. A tool is. A poem is.
They exist separate of Ain. Ain allows us to reach across the vastness of itself to touch these other objects. Ain allows the flowers to be seen. Ain allows the poem to be heard. Ain allows the tool to be used.

Ain is the bridge between two objects of exsistence. Ain is what gives us the ability to think and to act out those thoughts. Ain is the act of being without being itself.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-12 13:03:02

It doesn't matter what you believe, a particular god, no god, or multiple gods, it's all the same.

But it does, doesn't it? No matter how you think that God exists, YOU have to choose, in the end, what you believe and what you don't, and that becomes your reality. You can't be on both sides of the fence, because it QUESTIONS your own belief in your OWN reality. To believe in more than one God is to contradict yourself. ???

Palomar · 2002-12-12 13:41:29

To believe in more than one God is to contradict yourself. <!--emo&???

*Pagan peoples believe in gods and goddesses. These gods and goddesses can be identified with Jungian archetypes, i.e. that all aspects of human behavior can be identified within and studied further through the pagan pantheon of multiple gods.

You're talking about just one paradigm of belief, Cal. For most of human history, people have -not- been monotheistic.

So who is correct?

Personally, I'm an agnostic. And I'm inclined to think Carl G. Jung was onto something, relative to archetypes and the human psyche in regards to religion/spirituality.

Or, as Robert Anton Wilson might say, it's all in your head...re: Central nervous system and brain.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-12 14:37:29

Amen sistah! Reminds me of the whole ?In God We Trust? / ?Pledge of Allegiance? deal we had going on recently. People argue that ?God? can refer to any god, but as Michael Newdow points out, it's a monotheistic distinction.

Of course, Cal is probably referring to ?belief systems.? But even still, I know quite a few people who have belief systems that cross one another. For example, Buddhast Christians, etc.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-12 14:53:52

I wasn't saying that you need to believe in one god, perse, I was saying that you need to believe in only one faith. If that faith is polythesism, then you should believe in multiple gods, and not any other belief.

clark · 2002-12-12 16:29:33

"he said it's all in my head
and I said so is everything, but he didn't get it" - Fiona Apple

Why must one believe in one particular faith?

Each faith holds itself as a fundamental truth unto itself, yet why must we accept that?

How is it that faith, or belief, dictates the parameters by which we meet it?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-13 15:47:29

Look, we're picking our battles about little technicalities. Let's look at the big picture.

Yes, every faith has its own truths and good rules to live by. However, there comes a time when you have to believe in only one truth as being the real truth. What you think is really going on with the afterlife and whatnot.

How is it that faith, or belief, dictates the parameters by which we meet it?

Faith doesn't dictate the parameters by which we meet our faith. Rather, it is a uniform means of communicating and expressing our beliefs.

YOU must decide what you find to be a fundamental truth, and that is what is now reality (only in your own mind). You can believe that other faiths have noble things to follow, but you must decide for yourself what the truth is.

AltToWar · 2002-12-13 19:57:06

Dispite common understanding, Spirituality is not somthing akin to picking a brand of toothpaiste.

The concept than an individual needs some tax exempt conglomerate of middle men to get in touch with god (or whatever they want to worship) is really silly.

The crapshoot of picking your best possible brand of christianity to insure your proper placement when you die is really silly.

The fear of some pointy horned devil and a basement full of lava and hot rocks for an eternal afterlife as a motivation technique to get people to be nice toeachother is rather silly.

Does god really need a retailer? Why cant you get your God wholesale?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-13 22:19:54

The crapshoot of picking your best possible brand of christianity to insure your proper placement when you die is really silly.

That's not what I'm doing when I call myself a Christian; I know you're probably just speaking generally but I had to clarify a bit. I'm a theist (not atheist, a theist), but I don't really expect any reward for being so (ie, an afterlife with a dozen virgins or whatever).

Does god really need a retailer? Why cant you get your God wholesale?

Amen. (No pun intended.)

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-14 18:07:23

The concept than an individual needs some tax exempt conglomerate of middle men to get in touch with god (or whatever they want to worship) is really silly.

That's why I'm not Catholic.

Echus_Chasma · 2002-12-15 18:17:26

Islam, Christianity are both stemed from Judaism, I think.

Any way, the face of religion in the world is violence and all the negative things, eg the Catholic Priest scandals and the big supposed Islamic Jihad againest the west.
Most religious violence is performed by fanatics. If Osama Bin Laden was truly a Muslim he would'nt tell all his followers to kill Americans and westerners on sight because that is againet Islam. Also the same with the IRA, if they truly were prodestant or Catholic they would'nt have been killing each other. In Israel, the Palestinans vs the Jews, its the same thing there as well. There are people who follow religions that are 'sane,' like not every Muslim is a suicide bomber. Because of the acts of a few terrorists and fanatics religions get a bad name. Since 9/11 there has been alot of unfair persecution againest moderate Muslims who have nothing to do with Al-Queda.

I'm a Christian, right, and I read the Bible and stuff, I don't think that it all to be taken literally. Like in Genesis when it says God created the world in 6 days, it does'nt specify how long those days are. Naturally we assume that they are standard earth days, but they are relatively short and the solar system was in the process of being made so in theory we did'nt have days. More likely it would be 'universe days' which would be considerably longer and would probably 6 'universe days' was plently of time to create the earth. Also the things that were created on the specific days pretty much in order with the 'evolution' of the solar system and life. So maybe thats what the Bible is saying, I dunno, thats just my 2 cents.

But I suppose when It comes to beliefs its 'each-to-his-own' and you don't have the right to impose what you believe on others.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-15 19:45:23

If Osama Bin Laden was truly a Muslim he would'nt tell all his followers to kill Americans and westerners on sight because that is againet Islam.

Osama bin Laden is part of a radical interpretation of Islam (Shiite?). I believe it is something like 90% of the believers in Islam practice the peaceful type (Sunni?).

Also the same with the IRA, if they truly were prodestant or Catholic they would'nt have been killing each other.

The IRA was the force working to liberate Ireland from Brittish rule. They haven't been big players since the 1920's, especially not in Northern Ireland.

In Israel, the Palestinans vs the Jews, its the same thing there as well.

The Palestinians aren't killing people over religion! The matter is race... the Palestinians want their own country, and the Israelis have tried to negotiate this several times, only to be slapped in the face with civilian bombings and riots. It is pure politics, with a small bit of religious strife.

Because of the acts of a few terrorists and fanatics religions get a bad name. Since 9/11 there has been alot of unfair persecution againest moderate Muslims who have nothing to do with Al-Queda.

Yes. I heard a story on 9/11 about an Arabic man who was so afraid of being persecuted because of his skin color, he stood outside a gas station asking if anyone would go inside with his money and buy rice and milk to feed his family. That's why our political leaders urged Americans not to commit hate crimes against Arab-Americans. I know most people aren't identifying their hatred of terrorism with Islam, but rather with Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

But I suppose when It comes to beliefs its 'each-to-his-own' and you don't have the right to impose what you believe on others.

Who was that remark aimed at?

clark · 2002-12-16 10:28:54

We understand the personal doubt, but how is convincing other to your supposed personal truth going to convinve you that you are truly correct?

The act of sharing your personal truth is nothing more than a selfish act to draw comfort that you are not alone in your personal delusion. Why must we be co-conspirators in making you feel vindicated about what you belive and why?

If others believe other than you, it allows the possibility that you may be wrong in your beliefs, which is threatening to your personal ego. If others believe as you, then you can take comfort in the knowledge that you are not alone in believing what you belive.

Why do you think a common marketing practice is to advertise things as "popular", or "everyone needs/wants this".

We arwe pack animals and we are predisposed to seek out communaly accepted things and ideas- it acts as a guide into how we should live.

No religion is right, no belief is right- even the belief that god dosebn't exsist isn't right.

Yet nihilism is hardly a productive set of beliefs.

Either there is reason, purpose, or there is none. If there is none, we are better off creating our own, as no purpose means there is no vlaue in anything at all- it is all random and meaningless.

the chaos around us cannot be understood becuase there is no pattern- we just imagine it. or there is a pattern.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-16 13:02:59

What was that all about, Clark? ???

I'm telling you that you need to make up your mind as to what you believe and don't believe. You are just as bad in not making up your mind because you are afraid of picking the wrong one. It is comforting to you to think that you aren't picking the wrong one by picking all of them. We are children in a toy store, and our mothers will only let us pick one thing. There are no dualities.

clark · 2002-12-16 13:44:49

I understand what you are getting at Cal, and I am telling you it is bullshit.

I am talking about how the human mind operates, the function of our minds structure and the effect it is having on our perceptions and our fundamental needs.

I am telling you that any choice you make is no different than any other choice you make because it is all fundamental the same becuase the entire ssytem is a product of how we perceive and how we think as humans.

If I choose none, if I choose all, or if I choose one, it is all a product of thuman psyche and how we try to rationalize and understand the world we live in so we can manuever and be more effective biological organisms.

I am not picking all of them, and I am not picking none of them. I am observing what is going on, and choosing not to play. and yes, that is simply another strategy to cope, but it is the one I feel most comfortable with.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-16 20:15:20

You claim to be religious, but you are afraid to admit that there is a higher power. You say that religion is nothing more than a perception of what we feel; that it is all in our heads, and so is everything, as you have put it. You are trying to say that religion is only what we make it.

I really don't know how to put my feeling from here... bear with me...

You are saying that religion is only our perceptions, but really religion is trying to figure out the "whys" of how we got here (coincidentally, science tries to find the "hows). The point of religion is deciding what the real truth to our existence is. Some people will be right; others will be wrong. Even if you don't follow an organized religion, you HAVE to have a belief as to the "whys" in nature. You can't just shrug it off; you have to have a belief one way or the other. An organized religion is just a bunch of people with the same fundamental ideas as to how they've answered the "whys" in life.

Preston · 2002-12-16 22:08:48

One can decide that he cannot know the "why's."

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-16 22:51:10

It is against human nature to not ask and try to determine the "whys"

clark · 2002-12-17 09:53:45

Where have I claimed to be religious? And I am not afraid to admit there is a higher power, however, I don't neccessarily believe that there has to be one.

Religion, belief- they are exatcly what we make them, they are a product of the human mind. Random patterns are random patterns, yet we can all look at them and find patterns. We can look at actual geometric designs and declare that there is no pattern- that it is random.

Our mind function by processing the available information and categorizing it, labeling it, putting it into a larger framework of a whole. All of human society and our progress is the result of how the mind operates.

We have names for the different trees, for the different shades of green we see- all of this is to impose order upon the chaos that surrounds us. Belief in a diety of some sort is a function of how we view the world. It is the same thing.

Religion is not about figuing out how we got here. It is simply the final order made from disorder. No one has a clue how any of us got here. All we know is that we are here, now. And when we die, we are not here.

We either are in a state of Being, or we are not in a state of Being. All the silly rules you make up are simply that, made up. No one is right, and no one is wrong becuase there isn't an actual answer.

It's like me asking you what the nature of Orange is. It is a question without a meaningful answer.

What is the nature of Being?

Just to be.

There dosen't have to be a "why" to anything, especially nature. Just becuase we decide the "why's" dosen't make it right, or even legitimate.

We live in a universe without any inherent meaning, yet we are creatrues predisposed to find meaning. You probably won't understand this- it's like understanding the concept of vision while being blind.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-17 15:54:04

Clark, you're saying that there's a higher power, but then you turn around and say that humans are just "organizing chaos through patterns."

We can argue about the nature of religion all day, but the purpose of religion is to decide what your own truths are. What you think is real and true in life. Not generalizing patterns; trying to figure out what is going on.

Religion is not about figuing out how we got here. It is simply the final order made from disorder. No one has a clue how any of us got here. All we know is that we are here, now. And when we die, we are not here.

We can't ever be 100% sure about how we got here; we can't be 100% sure about almost everything in life. However, we can believe and have ideas about it all, and that requires that you leave your fears about choosing the wrong path behind, and put your beliefs into one truth that you percieve to be true.

It's called faith... ???

clark · 2002-12-17 17:14:58

Cal.... I am not saying there is a higher power. I am not saying there isn't one either. I am saying the issue of deciding either way is nothing more than a product of how the human mind is constructed- it is madness and nothing more. I am pointing to the madness and saying, behold madness. Now, it dosen't mean that there is a god or there isn't a god- either way, we can never know.

We are too mired in the process of perception to ever have a legitimate and objective answer.

Religion, and more importantly, belief, is exactly "pattern formation". Deciding what you believe and why is based on what Cal? How do you arrive at your conclusions? If you're liek the umpteen billion talking monkies on this plaent you do it by making sense of patterns- cause and effect, relationships- patters.

Figuring out what is going on is nothing more than pattern recognition.

How do you know if a ball falls on someone's head is funny or if it is something not to be laughed at? Pattern recognition.

If the ball falls on the clown, you laugh.
If the ball falls on the baby, you don't laugh.
If the ball falls on your head through no fault of your own, you don't laucgh, but other do.

What we see in these examples is pattern recognition to determine reaction- perception- how you understand what is going on, how it is meaningful to you, and what it means to other observers.

I am not afraid of choosing a path, they are all the same. Any path I choose as the basis of my fundamnetal beliefs is no more correct than any other. If you can understand this, why can't you understand my conviction that I do not need to choose anyone in particular?

What have i gained by being a buddhist versus a muslim? A christian versus a Jew? An aethist versus simple agnostic?

Why must I have faith in anything?

soph · 2002-12-17 17:29:14

but by perceiving the madness, dont you inevitably become a part of the madness of perception that you claim to stand apart from?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-18 15:38:12

What have i gained by being a buddhist versus a muslim? A christian versus a Jew? An aethist versus simple agnostic?
Why must I have faith in anything?

You are stuck on trying to say that religion is just in our heads. The atheists think there is no god or heaven, the christians, jews, and muslims believe in a god and a heaven, the buddists believe in a heaven..

I am trying to say, that you must pick one to reap the rewards. I am a christian, and because I have accepted this as a truth, I believe that everyone else has picked the wrong one, and that I will go to heaven when I die.

YOU MUST pick one over the other, because in every religion you can't be in-between. A christian would think that because you refuse to accept god and Jesus Christ as the savior, you will go to hell. It's a simple as that.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-18 15:51:35

What about the All Encompasing Religion? The One True Religon that Acknowledges All Others in one big Super Religion (much like the Zeta's Everything Conspiracy)?

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2002-12-12 09:28:59

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#52 2002-12-12 12:23:02

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#53 2002-12-12 13:03:02

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#54 2002-12-12 13:41:29

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#55 2002-12-12 14:37:29

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#56 2002-12-12 14:53:52

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#57 2002-12-12 16:29:33

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#58 2002-12-13 15:47:29

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#59 2002-12-13 19:57:06

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#60 2002-12-13 22:19:54

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#61 2002-12-14 18:07:23

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#62 2002-12-15 18:17:26

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#63 2002-12-15 19:45:23

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#64 2002-12-16 10:28:54

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#65 2002-12-16 13:02:59

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#66 2002-12-16 13:44:49

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#67 2002-12-16 20:15:20

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#68 2002-12-16 22:08:48

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#69 2002-12-16 22:51:10

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#70 2002-12-17 09:53:45

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#71 2002-12-17 15:54:04

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#72 2002-12-17 17:14:58

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#73 2002-12-17 17:29:14

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#74 2002-12-18 15:38:12

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#75 2002-12-18 15:51:35

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

Board footer