God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 15:23:03

I heard something on the radio by Jimmy Carter, on how he thought religion was related to terrorism (NO! THIS IS NOT THE ROOM FOR THIS DEBATE! BUT LOOK AT THE POINTS BELOW!)

He said that terrorism (or any religious vendetta) stems from a belief that other religions are wrong, and that if they don't believe in your god they are not worthy of a god at all. Keep in mind, this is coming from a Southern Baptist, not a UC-Berkley philosophy professor.

MY point is, I don't think you can morally accept the existence of more than 1 religion. It's like the scene in "The Mummy" with the fez guy who, when confronted with the mummy, pulls out a necklace with prayer charms from many religions! The fact is, religion is black and white, and you have to choose to believe one way or the other.

Now, do I think that we should kill Muslims, or Jews, or Mormons? NO! I can accept that OTHER PEOPLE believe DIFFERENT THINGS, and leave it respectfully at that.

And clarkie, I must admit, is a VERY cute nickname. Let me pinch those pudgy cheeks... MY NEW NICKNAME FOR NIDA IS... FEMINAZI :0

And as for me being a "big pompous windbag", I appreciate your narrow-minded view point, contradictory of your own self-proclaimed superiority to others ideas and opinions.

clark · 2002-12-11 15:36:56

How is morality involved in accepting more than one religion?

What is the ethical dilema here?

Either you are right, and we are all wrong; or someone else is right, and eevryone else is wrong. The fact of the matter is no one knows.

People use the differences in belief as a pretext for perertrating the many gross abuses that have soured some on the idea of religion as a legitimite entity.

Accepting other beliefs as their own includes nto condeming them based on your own beliefs.

Your beliefs extend no further than your mind.

call me whatever you want, whatever. However, it is considered offensive in some cultures to use a short hand name, especially so if you are not familiar with them.

So since I don't know what your intent is, I'll make one up. It's all the same to me.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 15:39:39

Yes. That is my point. In your own mind, your belief has to be the only right belief, and everyone who doesn't share your belief is wrong. That's why we have organized religion is to make this task easier. Two religions can't exist parallel to each other. You must decide, in black or white, what your belief is, and leave all the others behind.

And I was being sarcastic when I said "clarkie" was a cute nickname. That remark was aimed at Nida.

clark · 2002-12-11 15:54:28

Hi George, marked improvement in dialogue since our last post, yet again you seem to be missing something here.

I didn't call Cindy a juvenille- she isn't. Nida however is, and that comment was directed at her.

You alos don't realize that *I* have had other discussions with Nida, and Cindy prior to this one. Cindy says I can be caustic because we have exchanged words in the past. Nida, when i have seen her post, tends to view everything in terms of a femminist bias. She did state that I was talking out both sides of my mouth, a comment she made in another thread. So again, she set the tone, not I. And I fully endorse her right to speak her mind, in fact I would prefer her to- but as it is, all I have seen is a one dimensional characture. Little better than a troll, and a lot less entertaining.

Maybe I am a bigot. I doubt it though. If I was, that would imply some level of emotional involvement in all of this. And that, well, would be silly.

However, I would love to understand how I am devaluing people. Please, inform me.

And Cal, I will respectfully disagree. I find the world a richer place when I look at all things from as many different perspectives as possible. If I were to do as you suggest, and declare one set of beliefs true, and the rest false, I would neccessarily cut myself of from the opportunities that exsist by challenging my beliefs, as well as being able to honestly look at new ones.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 15:58:58

Have you seen "The Mummy"? If you have, remember the scene where the guy that ran away from the French Legion in the beginning (Vinny? The guy with the fez, anyway.)?

When the mummy approached him, he pulled out his prayer chain, with all of the world's major religions having a pennant on his chain! It's the same way here. You can't be on both sides of the fence when it comes to religion. We can interpret the same events in different ways, or study what valuable lessons other religions have to offer. But when it comes down to it, you have to make up your mind on what you believe and what you don't it's as simple as that. There can't be dual beliefs.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 16:05:33

Men don't shave their heads and rip pictures of the Pope on Saturday Night Live ???

clark · 2002-12-11 16:12:45

Ah, but I see her hostility- her (nida) chip on the shoulder attitude as coming from some misdirected feminist anger.

Its the same way I think that Cindy is biased in discussions pertaining to religion- I know her stance, at least as much as she has made public on this board, and any conversation with her regarding that subject is tainted by her bias towards religion in general.

Chavunists and bigots are closed minded people unwilling to listen, or accept the validity of any information that goes against their ingrained personal beliefs or philosphy.

Just an opinion, and I do not mean any of this to be taken negatively, so please save the flames for another time. It is not easy to keep an open mind, on anything, and I struggle with it all the time- yet it is keeping an open mind that is at the heart of all of these discussions.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 16:14:29

Whoa, what the hell? I never read these long ten page flamefests, but for some reason I decided to. (It's easy to tell when you guys are flaming each other for no real reason.)

But, man, clark, you said that, ?[Being able to thrive in space] is a belief for the simple fact that is hasn't been proven. It is an act of faith to believ that we can go to Mars, or anywhere else for that matter, and thrive in space.?

This depends on what kind of ?proof? you require. If you need proof that people can survive in a vaccume with higher level technology, we already have that; we've been to the moon. If you need proof that space is economically viable to an extent where people can thrive in it, we can sit down and argue scientific facts which would favor such a proof.

Man being able to fly was a belief, by your definition, but the physics involved in flying existed without your belief. Just like the energies, and technologies, required to thrive in space can exist without your belief.

But does god exist without belief? Since we can't know this, we can't answer this.

If I belive that we can't, am I wrong, or am I right? If you believe that we can, are you right, or are you wrong?

If you believe that we can't, when there is factual evidence to suggest otherwise, you are wrong. If I believe that I can, when there is factual evidence to back me up, then I'm right.

Belief only exists in realms when you can't know something. Belief is sequestered to things like religion, things you can never fully understand, not observational constructs of science.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 16:17:31

God is existent, for now, only in our own minds. I can't go out and show you God; I have to have faith to prove anything. And I don't have to prove it to you, only to myself.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 16:21:34

Wow. All of this unbridled hate for a complete stranger. Do I support the "ripping out of clitorises" in other countries? Don't be absurd in comparing my comment to that.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 16:25:53

Cal, you were making some sort of silly gender based moralistic argument... I have no idea how you couldn't expect someone to counter with something just as silly.

clark · 2002-12-11 16:27:42

Josh, we agree, I was simply trying to use an example that most here might relate to.

However, the belief that man will be able to thrive in space is simply a theory- we don't know yet. As you put it, we can't know this yet.

Yeah, sure, facts and figures show it is possible. But I am talking about thriving.

I don't want to get mired down on this issue, I am simply trying to suggest that mutual respect of belief is the best possible outcome.

I shudder when I hear televangilists or other fanatics declare that the world must follow their one true faith- and I EQUALLY shudder when I hear the die hard aethists say we need to rid the world of religion- in other words, declare the world must follow their one true faith.

In a word, i dislike hypocrisy.

soph · 2002-12-11 16:31:59

i agree clark. forcing your beliefs on another taints them--if a person doesnt want to believe something, there is no justification for forcing them to. it is wrong, and immoral.

kant hit the nail on the head when he said maturity is being able to think for yourself, and not let others think for you. too many people are easily influenced by grand words.

Palomar · 2002-12-11 16:38:28

Whoa, what the hell? I never read these long ten page flamefests, but for some reason I decided to

*LOL! I get this picture in my mind's eye of you bravely stepping in the middle of a tomato-throwing contest.

You're one cool guy, Josh.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 16:55:57

clark,

I am simply trying to suggest that mutual respect of belief is the best possible outcome.

Heheh, but... it's so fun to desrespect someone elses belief when facts are in opposition.

Reminds me of all the arguments Einstein had with Bohr about the Uncertainity Principle. He wouldn't give up believing that the universe was knowable (ie, the famous ?God doesn't play dice with the universe.?), but Bohr ?respectfully disrespected? his opinion / belief, with his counter arguments.

Suffice to say, poor Einstein never won.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 16:59:19

You're one cool guy, Josh.

Aww, thanks. You're one ?cool cat,? too. Though it seems clark sometimes gets on your bad side. You two are like an old married couple of something...

Palomar · 2002-12-11 17:10:07

it seems clark sometimes gets on your bad side. You two are like an old married couple of something...

*No, please...no. I already have a husband, and one is enough!

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 17:15:06

Ahh, but you're not at all old. From the vibrancy of your posts I could never think that!

AltToWar · 2002-12-11 19:19:19

This thread has been totally hijacked.

I'm just as guilty as anyone else, bet ever notice how all the threads on this board seem to shift to a totally unrelated topic?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-11 19:54:29

Yeah, I have. I'm guilty of it too, I suppose. But I try to keep things on topic as best I can.

Cute summation you have, though, AltToWar. I can actually agree with the whole, everything within nothing sentiment. Where's it from exactly?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 22:55:05

Yes. I was trying to demonstrate the absurd by being absurd. Besides, Sinead O'Connor did that to protest child abuse by Catholic preists in Ireland (NO! DON'T BRING THIS PART OF RELIGION INTO THE BOARD!). In fact, she was an abused child herself. She's a priest now... AH! I've wondered off topic again

I am not a chauvanist, as many have claimed. I think women should, do, and will continue to play an active role in politics and society. However, on George H's remark, sarcasm doesn't read very well in print...

Palomar · 2002-12-11 23:17:34

Ahh, but you're not at all old. From the vibrancy of your posts I could never think that!

*Considering that I'm roughly 11 years older than you, I must say that is the best compliment I've been paid in a while.

--Cindy

[Okay, I'll get back on topic!]

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-11 23:28:03

Can you consciously believe in two religions at the same time? I mean, can you hold the belief that two different ideologies co-exist?

Can you believe in God, but think that Allah, Budda, and Yahweh still exist? I know that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism believe in the same God, but the dispute is over the prophet (Jesus, Mohammed, and ? respectively).

I just can't accept the existence of more than one truth... I know you guys will call me "narrow-minded" and "unwilling to accept the truths of others", but in our own minds we all need to decide that we favor one religion, and we can agree to disagree with other organized religions. Even if you turn out to be wrong, what is religion if we are not 100% sure that we are right?

It reminds me of the episode of South Park where Satan has a love affair with Saddam Hussein (speak of the devil... PUN!). Anyway, Satan has to find out how to break it off with Saddam, so he goes to ask God. When you see him in hell, before all of this, there is a gathering of people getting the "hell orientation". There are people asking, "well, I was a devout Protestant", and "I was a faithful Muslim". The head demon says through his microphone, "I'm sorry. The correct answer was Mormon... Yes, Mormon."

I mean, everyone in the crowd thought that they were 100% right on what they believed, but someone has to be correct, and everyone else is wrong in the end. I know its hard to grasp, but you HAVE to believe that your truth is the only truth, and agree to disagree with other religions.

Preston · 2002-12-12 01:08:11

Agreed. I tend to believe that there is one objective reality, and postmodernism isn't worth much. So there is one true religion (or lack of religion).

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-12 03:38:21

Cal, I had an argument with someone once about this very thing. They are practicing Judism, and I asked them why they practiced their own version if they were unsure that it would mean eternal life, and so on (they practice a sort of homemade version). Their answer was that they were just ?guessing really? and that all they needed was something to ?believe in.?

I think the best solution is to believe in ones self, and not really concern yourself with monotonous rituals, tithing away your own savings and things of that nature.

I consider myself a Christian. But not because I want some sort of afterlife, or any of that. I just think the teachings of Jesus were quite powerful, and I agree with them so much, I see no reason why I cannot have the Christian designation. I don't go to church, or tithe, because I follow the Gospel of Thomas. So I'm probably, to most people, a sick sinner who belongs in the depths of hell. But I probably understand the teachings of Jesus more than most people (especially right wing conservatives who know nothing but hate). So I could care less.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2002-12-11 15:23:03

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#27 2002-12-11 15:36:56

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#28 2002-12-11 15:39:39

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#29 2002-12-11 15:54:28

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#30 2002-12-11 15:58:58

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#31 2002-12-11 16:05:33

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#32 2002-12-11 16:12:45

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#33 2002-12-11 16:14:29

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#34 2002-12-11 16:17:31

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#35 2002-12-11 16:21:34

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#36 2002-12-11 16:25:53

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#37 2002-12-11 16:27:42

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#38 2002-12-11 16:31:59

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#39 2002-12-11 16:38:28

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#40 2002-12-11 16:55:57

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#41 2002-12-11 16:59:19

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#42 2002-12-11 17:10:07

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#43 2002-12-11 17:15:06

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#44 2002-12-11 19:19:19

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#45 2002-12-11 19:54:29

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#46 2002-12-11 22:55:05

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#47 2002-12-11 23:17:34

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#48 2002-12-11 23:28:03

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#49 2002-12-12 01:08:11

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

#50 2002-12-12 03:38:21

Re: God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

Board footer