Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

John Creighton · 2006-01-25 22:28:12

I recall a while back there was a very active mailing list called the mars society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE. It was founded by Teri Kok. I actually met him at the mars society convention in Toronto. In contrast to most recycling systems that have a biological component Teri’s system was very space efficient. In this thread I would like to discuss the history of that group, what contributions they made and some of the more interesting posts which were made to that group. I will start by posting there most recent post as content for discussion on new mars. Enjoy

This started as a Mars project, but am hoping that someone here might
have a working parts of this system and could provide some practical
experience. All feedback is welcome.

Assumptions:
green house will be used to reclaim/recycle all grey water.
There should be at least two degrees of separation between the grey
water and a food source.
The green house will consume CO2 and produce O2.
There is too much radiation on the surface of Mars to grow plants.
Thus all lighting will be artificial.
The atmosphere of Mars is too thin to grow plants. Thus the green
houses will be pressurized and artificial air circulation will be
provided.
CO2 will be filtered out of other compartments to enrich the
atmosphere of the green house.
Overview of processes:
Grey-water: to swamp, to fish pond until evaporated.
Human waste: to human waste compost pile, to swamp soil, to non-edible
plants soil, to non-human compost pile, to edible plants.
Non-human waste: to non-human compost pile, to edible plants.
Animal wastes: to non-human compost pile, to edible plants
Animal parts: same as human waste.
Humidity: recovered from air, sterilized, treated and stored as
potable water.
to do's:
figure power consumption
figure water requirements
figure space (area) requirements
determine testing equipment
determine process checkpoint locations (telemetry)
Plants:
--edible:
----all your favorite vegies
--input:
----Watered from potable water supplies.
----Light from green house lamps
----Air circulation by fans
----CO2 from humans and animals
----worms
----soil
----seeds
--Output:
----food
----used soil to compost pile non-human
----seeds
--processes:
----till soil
----plant crops
----water plants
----harvest crops
----after 2 crops, recycle soil to compost pile non-human
----separate tools for edible and non-edible green houses, to prevent
cross contamination.
----O2 removal
----CO2 injection
----IMPORTANT: a portion of each crop must be allowed to produce seeds
--failure mode:
----plants become diseased, sterilize, sterilize. All soil and water
go to compost pile human.
----mechanical failure, plants die due to lack of heat, O2, CO2,
light, and/or air circulation. Replant or recycle to non-human compost
pile.
----loss of pressure. Fix problem. Replant or recycle to non-human
compost pile.
----food output is too low. Improve air circulation, watering, and
lighting, refresh soil, test soil for proper nutrients, test air for
proper gases. Build another green house.
----no seeds are produced. Import more seeds from Earth.
--non-edible:
----clover - fixes nitrogen, feeds rabbits, goats
----alfalfa - fixes nitrogen, feeds rabbits, chickens, goats
----grasses - removes carbon, feeds rabbits, goats
----non-human-edible plant parts are feed for rabbits, chickens, and
goats.
----watered by treated grey-water
--input:
----Watered from grey-water supplies.
----Light from green house lamps
----Air circulation by fans
----CO2 from humans and animals
----soil from human compost pile
----seed
--Output:
----food for animals
----used soil to compost pile non-human
----seeds
--processes:
----same as edible plants
--failure modes:
----same as edible plants
compost pile non-human (batch process):
--input:
----animal wastes
----inedible plant mass.
----treated grey-water for moisture
----O2
----Worms
----aerobic bacteria
--output:
----Soil to edible plants
----Heat to heat sink or by air to other modules
----Methane, captured for other processes
----Humidity
--processes:
----aerate
----remove excess worms, feed to fish
----completed batch goes to edible plant green house
--failure modes:
----batch becomes diseased, sterilize, sterilize. All soil and water
go to compost pile human.
----mechanical failure, batch dies due to lack of heat, O2, light,
and/or air circulation. recycle to human compost pile.

Compost pile human (batch process):
--input
----Animal parts.
----human wastes
----water as needed
----anaerobic bacteria
--output:
----swamp soil
----methane
----heat
--processes:
----assemble batch process
----monitor until completion
--failure mode:
----batch failure. Sterilize. Send through process to break in to
element components.
----mechanical failure, batch dies due to lack of heat. Recycle to
human compost pile.
----loss of pressure. Fix problem. Restart batch.
swamp:
--input:
----grey-water
----Light
----Heat
----grasses (looks like someone will have to mow the lawn)
----Fish do NOT live in the swamp
----snails
----soil from human compost pile
----O2
--output:
----Treated grey-water
----inedible plant mass
----humidity
----snails to fish or non-human compost pile.
--process:
----water flows through swamp. Air is pumped through water to provide
O2. Water may be recycled until acceptable quality is met, then water
is allow to flow to fish pond.
----Swamp consists of at least three areas.
Here is a narrative of the process: Soil from human compost pile is
added to area 1, area 2 and 3 contain dirt from non-human compost
pile. Grey-water flows from area 1, into area 2 then into area 3. Soil
is cleaned by growing grasses, alfalfa and clovers (as needed to
control nitrogen). After a suitable amount of time, the soil in area 2
is sent to the non-human compost pile and is replace with dirt from
the human compost pile. Grey-water now flows from area 2, thru area 1,
to area 3. After a suitable amount of time, the soil in area3 is
replaced, and the grey water flows from 3, thru area 2, into area 1.
The total swamp area should be long to clean the water in a single
pass. Snails are added to process to control moss.
--failure modes:
----plants become diseased, sterilize, sterilize. All soil and water
go to compost pile human.
----mechanical failure, plants die due to lack of heat, O2, CO2,
light, and/or air circulation. Replant or recycle to human compost pile.
----loss of pressure. Fix problem. Replant or recycle to non-human
compost pile.
----Grey water is directed to wrong area. Correct problem and recycle
water until water quality standards are met.
----snail die. Wait until water quality improves and reintroduce snails.
Pond (continuous process):
--input:
----treated grey-water
----light
----heat
----fish
----crayfish
----freshwater lobster
----O2
--output:
----food
----humidity
----CO2
----water for non-edible plants.
--process:
----pond water is aerated and circulated to produce healthy fish.
----Food is caught by fishing or netting.
----water quality is checked.
--failure modes:
----fish become diseased or water becomes contaminated, sterilize,
sterilize. All water goes to swamp as grey-water.
----mechanical failure, fish die due to lack of heat, O2, light,
and/or air/water circulation. Recycle to non-human compost pile.
----loss of pressure. Fix problem. Recycle to non-human compost pile.
Animals:
--Rabbits
--chickens
--goats
--fish
--crayfish
--fresh water lobsters
Insects:
--leaf cutter bees for pollination
--worms
--snails
Bacteria:
--Aerobic
--Anaerobic
Links:
http://www.waterrecycling.com/index.htm
http://www.greenhousegarden.com/Materia … erties.htm
https://www.sundancesupply.com/index2.html
http://www.cropking.com/greenhouse.shtml
http://www.farmwholesale.com/panels.php3
http://www.igcusa.com/btu/kirkcalc.html
http://www.quickgrow.com/gardening_articles/index.html
http://www.hammacher.com/publish/67403. … mo=xsells#
http://www.aquaponics.com/
automatic chicken plucker
http://www.schaferfarmsnaturalmeats.com … erman.html
livestock water requirements
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/bse/442-755/ … t.edu/pub\
s/bse/442-755/442-755.html#L3

Rxke · 2006-01-26 03:18:15

I fail to see what's so particulary space-saving in this 'design' (edit: I mean, it does no comparison to other systems)
Also: why the 2-step for human waste? I hope there's a good explanation besides the ickyness-factor for that. Prions?

And... I'm sorry but I'm rather unimpressed... You say this was an active mailinglist, ongoing for quite awhile, and this is the result? That's a back of a (large) napkin outline, not a design, IMHO.

Commodore · 2006-01-26 18:55:22

They want to till soil. Have these people never heard of hydroponics?

You can probably eliminate half your labor and complexity right there. Plus its easier to pull off in transit, allowing you to use much the same systems.

John Creighton · 2006-01-26 19:27:02

The post I posted may not represent the work of the list or in particular the work of Teri Kok. My memory is coming back to me and I recall Teri’s original system purified water by using the roots of plants to clean it. The plants growing in the soil served as food and may of contributed to oxygen. So the space efficiency was a result of using the plants to serve a duel function.

I posted the last post because it was the last post of any content and I thought the links in it might be worth discussing. As far as what Teri kok actually produced I was hoping someone who read some of the original mailing list might remember some details. I think is interest as a history of one of the subgroups of the mars society. Teri did actually build a workable space efficient system which use used for his own food and water.

I do not know how successful Teri’s system was at oxygen recycling if that was even a goal. I recall at one time he was in the process of buying monitoring equipment to better analyze the process. I am not sure how far those efforts got. I think the process of oxygen recycling by biological means is the most challenging as one not only has to consider how the carbon is removed from the atmosphere but how it is stored and reused. We must consider how to remove the carbon from the soil with out removing the important nutrients that plants need.

Rxke · 2006-01-27 08:47:22

I recall at one time he was in the process of buying monitoring equipment to better analyze the process..

That guy! Oops, I take back my criticism. But you have to agree, the post looked like it was idle conjecture, like he had not tried out or thought about it further.

John Creighton · 2006-01-27 13:26:33

I recall at one time he was in the process of buying monitoring equipment to better analyze the process..
That guy! Oops, I take back my criticism. But you have to agree, the post looked like it was idle conjecture, like he had not tried out or thought about it further.

Maybe I should of clarified a bit. It is just it has been along time since I read anything from the mailing list so my memory is slightly foggy. I agree with you though on the comments on the post. I remember that was one of my frustrations about the group I new real systems were built but I couldn’t find any resources at the time to gain information about the designs. Hopefully, now more information is available.

canalbuilder2 · 2006-02-17 09:46:12

This is just a quick note. I haven't had a chance to study the details, but research my current dissertation has thrown up a few things that may be relevant.

Human urine can be used for irrigation. As well as the water content, it contains phosphates and organic nitrogen, good for growing plants. You don't use it on root crops, of course, but other crops will benefit. Similarly greywater can be used for irrigation.

Almost all of the vast wastewater treatment structure in the developed world is to deal with faecal matter. This is the stuff that contains all the potentially nasty things. The problem is increased by the large amounts of water we use to deal with (typically 130 litres per person per day, and rising). By using composting toilets the "output" of six people can be easily dealt with. This compost can be used to grow fodder for animals, or air cleaning plants. Unfortunately, as a solid it is more suitable for soil-based solution than for hydroponics.

To be honest I need to have a more thorough look through the details at the top of the page. Then I may well write some more. Nonetheless it would be good to see other people's ideas.

Rxke · 2006-02-17 12:06:54

why not on root crops?

X · 2007-04-09 07:25:49

Rxke:

Some diseases (one or more forms of hepatitis I think just as an example) can be transmitted if a person eats plant matter grown in an area where infected person's solid waste has recently been disposed. It's not even a matter of someone not washing or cooking the plants either. As I understand it the plant's roots take up the virus, bacteria, or what have you, and it then remains dormant inside the plant until someone eats it.

Richard_a · 2008-02-20 13:23:13

As far as i know, viral diseases aren't transmitted through plants.
at least, i have never heard of a case of this sort happening.
bacterial diseases on the other hand can surely be transmitted through plants.

Ritchie from TheReefTank

SpaceNut · 2015-11-26 10:39:57

So more good stuff for greenhouses and soil crop growing...

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#1 2006-01-25 22:28:12

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#2 2006-01-26 03:18:15

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#3 2006-01-26 18:55:22

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#4 2006-01-26 19:27:02

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#5 2006-01-27 08:47:22

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#6 2006-01-27 13:26:33

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#7 2006-02-17 09:46:12

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#8 2006-02-17 12:06:54

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#9 2007-04-09 07:25:49

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#10 2008-02-20 13:23:13

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

#11 2015-11-26 10:39:57

Re: Echoes from the Mars Society GreenCELSSTaskFORCE

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