Solar Sails

Stormrage · 2005-12-31 11:54:14

What kinda budget would it take to make a probe like that and the time it will take to make it? 10 - 5 years?

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-31 15:06:59

Hard to say, much of the cost would be tied up in development. I would figure around $5-10Bn, and 10 years to develop and build (maybe a few more).

The RTGs, the ion engine, solar cells, sail deployment mechanism, sensors, and probobly the antenna are all practical with near-term technology.

The sail itself will need a lighter material then what we have today, the gyroscopes will need to be better to survive the soak, and current computer software will need to advance before such a mission would be possible.

The biggest problem is how do you engineer a machine thats supposed to do what it needs to do after 100yrs at 3K being bombarded by high-energy ions and C-fractional dust. Alot of the development money and time will go to ultrareliable engineering, effective shielding, but also struggling to keep it light enough to be carried by a sail.

Stormrage · 2005-12-31 16:08:53

I don't see the probe happening in the next decade. NASA will be busy, ESA and the Russians are busy to and don't have the budget to deal with it. The only way i can see it happening is if most parts are reused from other projects. The way ESA did with Rosetta,Venus Express,Mar Express and ADM-Aeolus. But that only saves about millions not Billions.

GCNRevenger · 2005-12-31 18:28:29

Oh I have no illusion that we will actually BUILD such a thing, this is purely an amusing hypothetical thought experiment.

Unfortunatly, most of the technologies associated with such a probe aren't useful for much else.

reddragon · 2005-12-31 20:49:51

How much capability to explore once it gets there would it be practical to give the probe? Ideally it would not just settle into a single orbit and take pictures from there, but rather find planets and other bodies and study them. Probably once it got to the edge of the other solar system, it would start looking for interesting objects. When it found one, it would either do a flyby or enter orbit. Then it would progress further in towards the star and look for more things to study. It would want to concentrate on planets, but could also spend some time on asteroids, moons, or any other interesting objects it might find. It would also need to determine how interesting a body was likely to be to the humans back on Earth so it knew how much time to spend there. It would also figure out what instruments were best to study each body.

There are two main difficulties for this. One is that it needs advanced artificial intelligence to figure out what to do. The other is that it needs the power to move around quite a bit. The ion engines would certainly be crucial for this, but would they be enough? Could it be programmed to make gravity assists with whatever planets it may find? I think I may have too high expectations, I'm just thinking of what would be ideal. Does anyone know what would be realistic with current or near future technology?

GCNRevenger · 2006-01-01 00:07:11

The probe will retain its sail at the destination, which will give some ability to maneuver without fuel. The ion drive I envision would have a pitifully and uselessly small thrust, and would be only used for interstellar course corrections.

Given the extremely high velocity of the probe as it enters the system, it will have to enter a highly eliptical orbit around the target star and pass fairly close to it. I imagine that it would activate its phased array radar and deploy a paralax-sensing (range finding) telescope as it passed close to the star when it has ample sunlight to power it. This would be a good reconisance sweep, since the solar cells would be on one side of the sail facing the star and the radar antenna on the back side facing out of system, so it would get a good pass over the whole system. Then it would "decide" what to do next.

I forsee a modular software system, where each instrument would have software for interpreting data, which is what human scientists do today, and generate various spectra or characteristics of targets. Then you have the next step up the chain, software that interprets the spectra and orbital motion and whatnot and classifies the targets. Specifically, a rough estimate of the mass and surface chemistry of bodies in the system would be the most important things, preferably some notion of the density too.

Then you have a "decision making" central program that tabulates the targets and the appropriate sensor options for their classes and how long/what orbit it takes to get several different levels of information quality. Which sensor is good for what target and how long it would need to get good results would be human-programmed.

Then the navigation suite makes rough figures about how long it takes to get from target to target with various times around/near targets and tabulates them. It would use the same "blocks" of time as the sensor estimate. Then this "manager" program mixes and matches targets/sensors, time on target, and transits/orbits and scores each combination based on human-programmed criteria... then picks the high score and generates a script program and executes it.

Stormrage · 2006-01-08 14:05:37

Lockheed Martin Space Systems was going to working on Mars Telecommunications Orbiter. It was going to be be able to send data at 1 Mbps when mars was at it's futherest and 10-13 at closets. It got cancelled to save money for Hubble and other projects.

If the project went ahead. That would have been one step closer to interstellar communication.

SpaceNut · 2006-01-09 07:02:11

Actually the messenger probe to Mercury has done some work in that arena with a data link I hope coming soon.

GCNRevenger · 2006-01-09 07:31:52

No, the Mars telecom orbiter was specifically designed to have a superhigh bandwidth link with Earth. That was its primary function, and it would have had a higher bandwidth then any other non-Earth-orbiting satelite ever built. Messenger just uses a unique antenna.

SpaceNut · 2006-01-09 09:47:41

Here is the reference:
Longest laser link bridges the gulf of space

A laser communication link has been made across a record 24 million kilometres (15 million miles), between the Messenger spacecraft and instruments on Earth.
The craft and the ground station transmitted pulses back and forth to each other, and although no actual information was transmitted, the experiment shows the potential for interplanetary laser links.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-03-25 05:33:37

Looks like Europe is doing Solar-sails

GeoSail from ESA
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object … ctid=38980
The GeoSail Technology Reference Study (TRS) investigates the feasibility of performing an in-situ solar sailing technology demonstration, while also doing science measurements in the Earth's magnetosphere.

SpaceNut · 2006-11-03 22:17:04

Solar sail mission to rise again?

Still waiting to prove its concepts will work but when you have strike 2 already in the past why go for strike 3.

The Planetary Society may once again try to fly a solar sail after a disappointing launch failure last year. This time, it is considering sending a new spacecraft built from spare parts to the Lagrange point L1 – an area in space where the gravity of the Sun and Earth are balanced

Stormrage · 2006-11-08 19:15:55

Kind of Old. They said that they wanted to try again with Cosmos. They were looking for funding from their members. I hope they do get it. After all their members have to donate 50 dollars each.

5 000 000 / 100 000 = 50

SpaceNut · 2007-01-01 21:12:21

Sailing through space
In the future, spacecrafts may be powered by solar sails

Like sails on boats, these huge solar sails will need stiff masts to stretch them out and make them smooth.
But how will NASA launch such a huge sail and its masts into space on a rocket? Part of the answer is to use very long, strong, lightweight masts that coil up like Slinky toys for launch, then uncoil to their full length once in space.
NASA's Space Technology 8 (ST8) mission will test a new type of mast called SAILMAST. The SAILMAST will be less than one-half meter (19 inches) thick when it is coiled up for launch in 2009. Then, once ST8 is in space, SAILMAST will open to its full length of 40 meters (130 feet)! Tests will see if SAILMAST stays straight and stiff enough in space to support a solar sail.

Find out how SAILMAST works at http://www.spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/st8/sailmast

Slinky® in Space!

SpaceNut · 2007-01-02 08:13:26

The winds may not be as steady as we would like for solar sailing to the outer reaches of space.. at least not around the planets.

Turbulence Detected in Space

The highly ionized solar wind blows around our planet, disrupting satellites and endangering unprotected astronauts. A flotilla of four satellites have recently measured random variations in the solar wind's propagation, providing the first definitive detection of turbulence in space.

The observation could improve space weather forecasts, as well as help improve models of turbulent flow in ionized gas, called plasma.

cIclops · 2007-01-02 08:25:25

Solar sails use photons not solar wind particles. The solar photon flux is remarkably constant, varying only by about 0.1% over the 11 year cycle. Good sailing.

Austin Stanley · 2007-01-02 16:34:23

The winds may not be as steady as we would like for solar sailing to the outer reaches of space.. at least not around the planets.
Turbulence Detected in Space

The highly ionized solar wind blows around our planet, disrupting satellites and endangering unprotected astronauts. A flotilla of four satellites have recently measured random variations in the solar wind's propagation, providing the first definitive detection of turbulence in space.

The observation could improve space weather forecasts, as well as help improve models of turbulent flow in ionized gas, called plasma.

Shouldn't matter very little to a Solar Sail, which use the suns light for propulsion, not the ions it shoots out (ie the solar wind).

The article doesn't mention the actual force exerted on the satilites, but it probably wasn't all that great either, AND this was during passage through the magnetosphere where turbulance would be the worse. It hasn't been any sort of issue for our other interstelar probes, so I wouldn't worry to much about it.

dicktice · 2007-01-03 19:41:42

Very impressive series of posts, especially the solar sailing, which I prefer to call light sailing. I'd like to improve on the above ideas, but I can only think of add-on's:

Carry spare sail(s) like the tall ships do to replace the ones that get "blown out."

Launch a probe per year, with the ability to communicate with each other, all the way back to the Solar System.

Keep on improving the design of each successive probe, so that not inconceivably the last will arrive ahead of the first.

The redundancy upon arrival might make possible the assembly of new probe launches from the first system reached, to a second system to be determined in the interim.

Do this in more than one direction, as well, as a matter of ongoing space research contributing to knowledge of where eventually to populate beyond the Solar System.

SpaceNut · 2020-06-20 19:35:59

bump

SpaceNut · 2020-06-20 19:43:03

This the largest of the old topics which involve the technology of using the solar wind to push a sail to great speeds.Or at least that is what the theory says.
https://www.thehindu.com/children/the-m … 869717.ece

21istbhistory-of-solar-sailingjpg

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-06-11 11:02:03

Sending a Spacecraft to Another Star Will Require a Million Lasers Working Together

In 2016, Russian-American billionaire Yuri Milner founded Breakthrough Initiatives, a non-profit organization dedicated to investigating some of the most enduring mysteries of the Universe. Chief among their scientific efforts is Breakthrough Starshot, a proof-of-concept prototype that combines a lightsail, a nanocraft, and directed energy (aka. laser) propulsion to create a spacecraft capable of reaching the nearest star (Alpha Centauri) in our lifetimes.

Naturally, this presents all sorts of technical and engineering challenges, not the least of which is the amount of power needed to accelerate the spacecraft to relativistic speeds (a fraction of the speed of light).

Luckily, scientists from the Australian National University (ANU) recently came up with a design for a directed-energy array made up of millions of individual lasers positioned across the Earth’s surface.

https://www.universetoday.com/151478/se … -together/
The paper that describes their research (conducted with support from Breakthrough Initiatives) was recently published in the Journal of the Optical Society of America B. The team was led by Dr. Chathura P. Bandutunga, a Research Fellow with ANU’s Centre for Gravitational Astrophysics (CGA), and included members from ANU’s ARC Centre for Engineered Quantum Systems, and the Mount Stromlo Observatory.

Not sure if there will be more Sails but ESA is annoucning an unmanned spacecraft vision for the 2020s, 2030 and the 2040s up until 2050

The Chinese are also planning a Voyager-like mission to the outer solar system that includes a flyby of Neptune, measurements of the electrically charged gas bubble surrounding our solar system, and a journey to interstellar space. This however might not be solar but some kind of Nuclear or Ion mission, there is a lot of speculation about what China might design here.
The mission is currently named IHP, which stands for Interstellar Heliosphere Probe. It consists of two spacecraft that would explore the heliosphere, the solar-wind-created region around our Sun that separates us from interstellar space as the solar system travels through the Milky Way. A second probe, IHP-2 from the Chinese space agency, would go in the opposite direction

The first spacecraft to make use of the technology was IKAROS, launched in 2010.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKAROS

IKAROS (Interplanetary Kite-craft Accelerated by Radiation Of the Sun) is a Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) experimental spacecraft.

The spacecraft was launched on 20 May 2010, aboard an H-IIA rocket, together with the Akatsuki (Venus Climate Orbiter) probe and four other small spacecraft. IKAROS is the first spacecraft to successfully demonstrate solar sail technology in interplanetary space

JAXA scientists stated that the measured thrust force by the solar radiation pressure on IKAROS' 196 m2 sail is 1.12 millinewtons.

Solar Cruiser is a planned NASA spacecraft that will study the Sun while propelled by a solar sail.
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa … search-and
The Near-Earth Asteroid Scout (NEA Scout) is a planned mission by NASA to develop a controllable low-cost CubeSat solar sail spacecraft capable of encountering near-Earth asteroids (NEA)
https://techport.nasa.gov/view/14656

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-06-11 11:19:33)

SpaceNut · 2022-04-11 21:31:26

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

French Firm Raises $2 Million To Sail On Sunlight
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 … olar-space
The French aerospace company Gama has raised 2 million euros to deploy a solar sail in space. The Guardian reports:
Solar sails require no engines to move. Instead, they are pushed around by the pressure of sunlight. The angle of the sail determines the direction of motion. Gama plans to deploy a 73.3-sq-meter solar sail in a 550km-altitude orbit in October. It will be launched as an additional payload on a SpaceX rocket.
Gama hopes to demonstrate that solar sails can revolutionize access to deep space because they are cost-effective and scalable in size. After this year's deployment test, the company plans to launch a follow-up mission in 2024 to a higher orbit to demonstrate control and onboard navigation. In 2025, it hopes to emulate the Japanese and fly to Venus.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-31 11:13:07

There has been no update on the Solar Sail NEA Scout, it was a secondary payload on the SLS Artemis Mission

https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1484246783681187842

Status Report on Artemis I Secondary CubeSat Payloads
https://parabolicarc.com/2022/11/17/sta … more-89453

Other Tech Demo Payloads from NASA, the Italian Space Agency, University of Tokyo, Morehouse State University/NASA are operational

Tech demo
No signal received yet

SpaceNut · 2024-02-17 12:34:57

NASA’s Solar Sail Is So Close to Harnessing Sunlight for Propulsion

BB1iqHZB.img?w=534&h=267&m=6

Solar sails, ultra-thin polymer “sails” that leverage the Sun’s photons as a means of propulsion, have been sent into orbit for more than a decade, but now NASA is prepping it’s own version.
On January 30, the solar sail aced its final test and successfully deployed one quadrant along a 100-foot-long boom.
NASA says the technology is now TRL (technology readiness level) 6, meaning it’s ready for space missions.
Deep space missions are many things, but “cheap” is not one of them. It takes a lot of money to get a spacecraft (along with a lifetime supply of fuel) beyond Earth’s orbit. Luckily, NASA (along with its space subcontractor, Redwire) have developed a solution that’ll help lighten the load and the cost—a solar sail.
On January 30, 2024, Redwire officially deployed one quadrant of its solar sail at its Colorado-based facility, proving that the technology is now ready for space missions. NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center led the solar sail team, with the Alabama-based NeXolve and Redwire designing the sail’s deployment mechanism once in space. The polymer material coated in aluminum successfully deployed along a 100-foot-long boom, and when all four quadrants deploy in space, it’ll fill up 17,780 square feet and will power light-payload space missions.

SpaceNut · 2024-03-09 11:58:21

NASA’s Solar Sail Is So Close to Harnessing Sunlight for Propulsion

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#26 2005-12-31 11:54:14

Re: Solar Sails

#27 2005-12-31 15:06:59

Re: Solar Sails

#28 2005-12-31 16:08:53

Re: Solar Sails

#29 2005-12-31 18:28:29

Re: Solar Sails

#30 2005-12-31 20:49:51

Re: Solar Sails

#31 2006-01-01 00:07:11

Re: Solar Sails

#32 2006-01-08 14:05:37

Re: Solar Sails

#33 2006-01-09 07:02:11

Re: Solar Sails

#34 2006-01-09 07:31:52

Re: Solar Sails

#35 2006-01-09 09:47:41

Re: Solar Sails

#36 2006-03-25 05:33:37

Re: Solar Sails

#37 2006-11-03 22:17:04

Re: Solar Sails

#38 2006-11-08 19:15:55

Re: Solar Sails

#39 2007-01-01 21:12:21

Re: Solar Sails

#40 2007-01-02 08:13:26

Re: Solar Sails

#41 2007-01-02 08:25:25

Re: Solar Sails

#42 2007-01-02 16:34:23

Re: Solar Sails

#43 2007-01-03 19:41:42

Re: Solar Sails

#44 2020-06-20 19:35:59

Re: Solar Sails

#45 2020-06-20 19:43:03

Re: Solar Sails

#46 2021-06-11 11:02:03

Re: Solar Sails

#47 2022-04-11 21:31:26

Re: Solar Sails

#48 2023-03-31 11:13:07

Re: Solar Sails

#49 2024-02-17 12:34:57

Re: Solar Sails

#50 2024-03-09 11:58:21

Re: Solar Sails

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