What I Hate About The United States

Dayton Kitchens · 2005-12-22 09:48:24

I love the USA. Two hundred and fifty years my family has been here. I would never want to live anywhere else in the world.

But there is one thing that I've come to loathe about this great country.

We no longer think "big" anymore.

By and large, few in America these days seem to support or favor big plans, projects, dreams, goals. Even in fighting our wars our goal seems to be fire off a few spectacular shots for a few days, declare peace and go home.

And of course you can see how this ties in with the space program.

We nudge things around the edges. Cheaper, faster, better. for example. But we avoid large scale long term commitments.

I blame the 1970s. Just after the bicentennial in particular.

In the 1960s, the nation was full of big goals.

Man on the moon.
War on poverty.
Civil Rights.
Preventing the spread of communism.

All four of these big plans, projects, dreams petered out in the 1970s.

The space program was gutted even as men on the moon became a reality.

The war on poverty and the war in Vietnam were about equally unsuccessfull.

And Civil Rights became mired in problems of urban unrest. school desegregation and the breakdown of minority families.

So Americans recoiled at dreaming big and almost since them have adopted a "muddle through" attitude.

Not to say that is always a bad thing. But I think a nation that thinks of itself as great has got to dream and plan big from time to time.

End of rant.

What do you think?

Cobra Commander · 2005-12-22 10:21:38

I couldn't agree more.

Further, a nation that does "big things" will always have a certain attitude and way of conducting itself that could be interpreted as arrogance. So many Americans are terrified of being perceived as arrogant for reasons that elude me.

Well, I have some theories but none of them flattering.

Let's get off our collective butts and strive for greatness again people. Whining of the meek be damned.

Commodore · 2005-12-22 18:22:41

Agreed.

No one is allowed to win anymore. In business, in life, in war, in peace, in everything.

And its making us all losers.

Dook · 2005-12-22 19:20:14

No big things since 1970? The internet. Computers. The defeat of the worlds 4th most powerful army with only 148 American dead. The human Genome Project. Nuclear Energy...

Those 4 dreams you stated did not peter out, they were accomplished. An argument can be made that the civil rights battle is not finished but certainly there has been progress.

What big things are left to accomplish? Lets skip space goals for once.

Worldwide Democracy
Eliminate Poverty
Eliminate Environmental Pollution
Eliminate Genetic Diseases
More Powerful Sources of Energy

The work we are doing now will one day payoff, maybe not in perfect ways, often just simple improvements. I like to think of it as discovering some new small piece of the universal puzzle that you never have to search for again.

Also I think there are two ways to go about the evolution of humanity, since that is what this post is really about. The quick way, we can attack China and if we win they will become a democracy rather quickly. Or the slow path. Communication, people from one country meeting those of another has a way of developing a better understanding of each other's lives and cultures, it brings them together.

Dayton Kitchens · 2005-12-23 07:59:08

No big things since 1970? The internet. Computers. The defeat of the worlds 4th most powerful army with only 148 American dead. The human Genome Project. Nuclear Energy...

The internet and computers weren't a big plan, or big project, no national committment or national effort required. They were evolutionary.

The 1991 Gulf War was one of my "we fired shots, declared victory and went home" things that I originally alluded to that we're paying the price for 14 years later.

Most all the nuclear reactors currently in operation in the United States were in the planning stage well back in the 1970s.

I'm not familiar enough with the Human Genome project to comment on it.

Rxke · 2005-12-23 09:01:01

(edit: nevermind off-topic)

BTW. post 1970... Hm. Wonder if the soaring oil-prices have nothing to do with that?

Rxke · 2005-12-23 16:27:55

Sorry to come back to this. Haunted me all day.

Greatness is a Vision.

In the sixties there were visions aplenty. Not only in America. Think about it for a second and you'll agree. I'm not saying those visons were good or bad, but ther were B.I.G.

And then...

The oil-crisis... Oil-prices, and thus energy, and thus what makes modern civilisation tick, doubling, tripling in price all but overnight...

Recently I saw footage (from Belgium, could've been any country....) of a press conference, with one of the ministers saying: 'there is no cause for a panic'

But there was.

And all the great men with great visions had to step aside.

Enter the new reality, where money-pinchers became the new decisionmakers-behind-the-scene.

And in their traces, the new 'visionaires'

The greedy, short-term 'thinkers', 'Visions' of wealth, built upon scarcity.

And later their sons, powerful through wealth... Built on scarcity.

Inheriting the 'visions' from their fathers, families...

In public clumsily, irreverently, re-hashing the words of greatness that isn't THEIR vision.

Laughing all the way to the bank.

I guess I don't have to name names, now do I ?

srmeaney · 2005-12-24 04:35:30

That would explain why pretty much every one in this thread was opposed to the idae of a single Space Commonwealth having total dominion over all space beyond earth and the entire concept that you would have to give up your Citizenship in what ever earth nation you are just to be one of the ten million lunar colonists, or martian Colonists.
It was that the big idea didnt come from the mouth of A president.

Of course, if George W. Bush had come out and said that:
1. All space beyond earth is now the Territory of a Space Commonwealth.
2. That nation would have a predetermined value for the next two hundred years of 20 billion billion.
3. The USA was establishing a constitution, and laws and giving that nation recognition and that a bunch of Millitary guys were going to govern it until people signed on as citizens after astronaut training and their university degrees.
4. All colonists were obliged to go to stay.
5. That new nation would be spending fifty million billion every five years on the colonization contracts.
6. Human labourer/colonists were going one way and they would be continuously resupplied in their colonization efforts.

You would all be waving flags instead of Burning them.

Merry Christmas, you sad bunch of Traitors.

Dook · 2005-12-24 20:55:36

If President Bush would have said that he would have been impeached.

reddragon · 2005-12-25 11:51:04

The problem may be lack of an agreed upon vision rather than lack of any vision. Many people have visions for the future, but they concentrate on different things. When I dream of what I think the future should be like, I tend to think of a high-tech, space traveling civilization. But other people concentrate on other important issues, such as eliminating poverty, protecting the environment, protecting human rights, etc. People disagree about what's the right future, even among the space advocacy community.

It is important to think "big," and I agree there are too many people who aren't doing that. But there are also plenty who are. They just aren't united in one singular purpose, so they aren't going to make one spectacular accomplishment immediately. And if they did, a lot of other essential things would be neglected.

Cobra Commander · 2005-12-26 14:04:44

Merry Christmas, you sad bunch of Traitors.

Somehow being called a traitor to this silly Space Commonwealth idea always brings a smile to my face.

"predetermined value of 20 billion billion," it's funny every time.

Grypd · 2005-12-26 16:59:34

Describe BIG.

I suspect that in this a 24 hour 365 day a year instant news straight through your tv you state something and you are verbally castrated by "experts" wheeled in whose sole function is to prove that your BIG great idea is a) Not feasible, b) Not cost effective (then again what is), c) Takes resources from more needful things. This explains how the likes of professional doomsayers like Jeffrey Bell gets along. But for it to sell more news always means that professional hacks find demeaning space advocates or similar easy. (We are not many and dont have a powerful media presence). Still it does not help that the general public anywhere except maybe China actually see a space program as anything except as prestige they cant see themselves as getting involved (thats rocket scientist stuff)

No we will not think BIG again unless there is a sound financial reason to do it and it can be broadcast to the general public and to get them on board.

Stultus est sicut stultus facit.

Very true

Dayton Kitchens · 2005-12-29 20:25:33

Another reason for the lack of vision and "thinking big" might be the nature of wealth in America these days.

Americans are wealthy and have been for two decades by and large.

But in some ways, it is a precarious wealth. Our economy is good and unemployment is low...............yet some 20 million Americans chang or lose their jobs in a given year. Almost all of them quickly get new ones. Even better paying ones. But the uncertaintynatural to even a brief change in jobs unsettles most people.

Their prosperity seems to rest on an unstable foundation. So in life, they are reluctant to embrace anything that seems disruptive of the status quo.

clark · 2005-12-30 06:42:26

I mistrust this "vision" thing. So should you.

Hitler had a "big" vision. Stalin had a "big" vision. A bunch of jihadi nutcases have a supposed "big" vision. Big is not always better.

Leaders routinely walk around spouting off about their "vision". An idea to believe in. Zubrin has one. Bush has one. Our beloved srmeaney has one. Should we support any of their visions based on the ill conceived premise that we are missing "big" vision in some void of apathy and sloth?

Josh Cryer · 2006-01-02 14:06:55

Hey, I have huge visions. But I don't believe in leadership. Does that make me better?

Rxke · 2006-01-03 02:13:48

No it just means you ate too much funny mushrooms.

Martian Republic · 2006-01-08 08:26:12

I mistrust this "vision" thing. So should you.
Hitler had a "big" vision. Stalin had a "big" vision. A bunch of jihadi nutcases have a supposed "big" vision. Big is not always better.
Leaders routinely walk around spouting off about their "vision". An idea to believe in. Zubrin has one. Bush has one. Our beloved srmeaney has one. Should we support any of their visions based on the ill conceived premise that we are missing "big" vision in some void of apathy and sloth?

Actually, it all depends on who having the vision and what there ultimate goal are that is the determining factor of whether that a worthwhile vision or goal. Kennedy had a vision for going to the moon, FDR had a vision of saving the United States from a depression and Abraham Lincoln had a vision and goal of saving the Republic. Our founding father also had a vision of setting up a Federal Republic Constitutional Government. These are good vision and goal, but your right there are bad vision and bad goals too. I do agree with you that we should not run after just any vision or goal, but we need to know who vision or who goals that we are chasing after before we sign on to participate in there venture.

I have big vision too, to protect the General Welfare of the American people and rebuild America. I would also like to see the rest of the World built up around sovereign nation state that have a high standard of living based on a General Welfare concept instead of some Empire base imperial system that ruling the world like Old British or Roman Empire.

If we are going to solve our problems, then we need visionaries, but they need to be of the right kind of visionaries. We need to ask ourselves do we want what will be the end result of there vision.

The answer to the question is either yes or no.

It the answering of that question that is the determining factor of whether we pick up there vision.

Larry,

reddragon · 2006-01-08 11:19:12

We need to ask ourselves do we want what will be the end result of there vision.

Very true. And we should also ask if the end result will be what they say it will be. For example, Lenin sold the Russian people a vision of a classless society in which they all work for the common good and are equal. But instead they got a brutal dictatorship. Many people have grandiose visions, but I will be very careful in choosing to follow any of them.

Martian Republic · 2006-01-08 22:39:59

We need to ask ourselves do we want what will be the end result of there vision.
Very true. And we should also ask if the end result will be what they say it will be. For example, Lenin sold the Russian people a vision of a classless society in which they all work for the common good and are equal. But instead they got a brutal dictatorship. Many people have grandiose visions, but I will be very careful in choosing to follow any of them.

I agree with you. The guy having the vision that being implemented has to be logical and following basic rule or it can be detrimental instead of being something good. Even if the guy had good intention, he has to be someone that know what he doing and we need the examine those would be visionaries ourselves too, before we follow them also.

Larry,

Stormrage · 2006-01-13 12:28:09

We need to ask ourselves do we want what will be the end result of there vision.
Very true. And we should also ask if the end result will be what they say it will be. For example, Lenin sold the Russian people a vision of a classless society in which they all work for the common good and are equal. But instead they got a brutal dictatorship. Many people have grandiose visions, but I will be very careful in choosing to follow any of them.

It was Stalin who destroyed the dream. The end result with Lenin was good was what he sold.

spaceman2020 · 2006-01-17 15:17:33

It was Stalin who destroyed the dream. The end result with Lenin was good was what he sold.

Lenin was a murderous thug who seeked power in Russia by force and purged out the competition to build his ideal socialist society. Sounds to me like some visions are bad IF they're carried out by force. The communal idea has been around since Plato's Republic, and Jesus advocated a moneyless, unselfish and greedless society. I agree with the idea, but the means were horrible and very contemptable. That said, the communal idea must start with reforming the egoistical sex-crazed culture of ours into a more science and learning-centered one.
That said, I also LOVE this country but HATE the obsessions of sex and money in our current society. The idealism is there, but I think that Mars could help revitalize the morals and courage of the people of Earth to explore and colonize elsewhere. It also gives us the opportunity to build the society based on science, learning, and understanding, real long-term success. It would permanently kill off our sex, money, and ego-driven society, or at least this is my hope.

Earthfirst · 2006-01-17 16:55:05

I don't Hilary Clinton, she is a carpet bager from the Ar-Kassans river.
She just white trash from Arkannas, playing the big liberal senator from New York.
Also librals, immigrants, non english signs on the bus, How am I suppost to know what no armas, carncia, mercotdo, or vivia la raza? Some times I feel like a stranger in my own country that I was born in. In Mexico every one has kown english, all the sign are in eglish for me. I feel right at home, they do this because they want me to spend my money there.
Also spanish channels on cable TV, why should I have to pay for it if I am not going to use it, radio all the english station are changing to spanish.
I hate spanish, many other people feel the same way. I think that we need a wall along the border to keep out the millions of ill legals alian that sneek into the US every year. Also deport the ill legals here along with there many many babies. We don't need them or want them here. How many people do you need to do yard work anyways.

Commodore · 2006-01-17 20:07:13

Actually it think Hillarys originally from Chicago.

But she is a carpetbagger. Unfortunately thanks to New York City she'd have to eat a live kitten on prime time TV to get voted out of office. :evil:

Commodore · 2006-01-17 20:18:00

That said, I also LOVE this country but HATE the obsessions of sex and money in our current society. The idealism is there, but I think that Mars could help revitalize the morals and courage of the people of Earth to explore and colonize elsewhere. It also gives us the opportunity to build the society based on science, learning, and understanding, real long-term success. It would permanently kill off our sex, money, and ego-driven society, or at least this is my hope.

I think the reason behind a lot of this is that most people live in urban or suburban areas really have no idea where the the basics of life come from. Power comes out of the wall, food comes from the supermarket, and clothing comes from the mall.

Hopefully once people see the labor required for the most basic substinance that they gain a little prospective.

RIZ4ROCKET · 2006-01-20 21:14:54

That said, I also LOVE this country but HATE the obsessions of sex and money in our current society.

So do Islamic Fundamentalists. Ocurred to me today that part of the anti-american sentiment may be due to the idea that the "rest of the world" believes that with power comes responsibility, and that the US isn't living up to it's obligations to the "rest of the world".

Funny, cause there's a lot of americans that think that the US isn't living up to it's obligations to it's own citizens.

One reason for a manned mission to Mars is to give the "rest of the world" something to think about other than how the US isn't living up to it's obligations to the rest of the world, or it's own citizens.

Or, we can go about the historic tradition of tearing each other to pieces, and ultimately back to the stone age.

An aside.

Y'know I have been wondering lately why it is that human history has pivoted so directly on the Middle East (specifically the Jewish people). When I consider their claim (or Devine "Right") to it, and the disproportionate level of their contribution to the betterment of humanity, I can't help but wonder how it is that world events have come to the point where they are central to a thousands of years struggle to control a territory that has only recently (due to the oil) become significant.

Strikes me as more than coincidence.

Anyways, if anyone could help, I sometimes wonder how possible it is that humanity has evolved to it's present level of technological advancement in the past. Seems like this isn't a new idea. Is there a name or phrase that describes this notion? I'd appreciate any help in finding more ideas in this area, if possible. Thanks.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2005-12-22 09:48:24

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#2 2005-12-22 10:21:38

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#3 2005-12-22 18:22:41

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#4 2005-12-22 19:20:14

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#5 2005-12-23 07:59:08

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#6 2005-12-23 09:01:01

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#7 2005-12-23 16:27:55

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#8 2005-12-24 04:35:30

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#9 2005-12-24 20:55:36

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#10 2005-12-25 11:51:04

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#11 2005-12-26 14:04:44

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#12 2005-12-26 16:59:34

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#13 2005-12-29 20:25:33

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#14 2005-12-30 06:42:26

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#15 2006-01-02 14:06:55

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#16 2006-01-03 02:13:48

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#17 2006-01-08 08:26:12

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#18 2006-01-08 11:19:12

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#19 2006-01-08 22:39:59

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#20 2006-01-13 12:28:09

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#21 2006-01-17 15:17:33

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#22 2006-01-17 16:55:05

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#23 2006-01-17 20:07:13

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#24 2006-01-17 20:18:00

Re: What I Hate About The United States

#25 2006-01-20 21:14:54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Board footer