Is there any point in wondering? - Isn't the question answered, after all?

soph · 2002-12-08 11:21:40

this is true. i wonder if marx would have written the communist manifesto if hed known what stalin would twist his theories into.

Auqakah · 2002-12-08 16:16:44

Its real interesting that you mention Darwin..........

Apparently, Darwin was a Christian in early life. That is, until his wife died. At that point, he began to hate God, and sought to disprove his existance via his theories. However, on his deathbed, he renounced all of his theories... and the scientific world ignored him, claiming that his final words were the ravings of a dying man.

Just thought you might find that interesting.

AltToWar · 2002-12-08 17:02:30

When the whole world was flooded, where did all the fresh water fish go? Surely as soon as the oceans rose up over the entire earth, it killed all fresh water fish.

I suppose mosus had a fish tank on the ark?

Facts can be such a hassle when you try to make myth fact.

AltToWar · 2002-12-08 17:04:59

Its real interesting that you mention Darwin..........

Apparently, Darwin was a Christian in early life. That is, until his wife died. At that point, he began to hate God, and sought to disprove his existance via his theories. However, on his deathbed, he renounced all of his theories... and the scientific world ignored him, claiming that his final words were the ravings of a dying man.
Just thought you might find that interesting.

Jesus, in the garden of Ghesemeny asked god to forget this whole "savior of the world" business, and let him just be an average joe.

When facing death, I suppose just about anybody will get some jitters, eh?

Phobos · 2002-12-08 17:12:45

Its real interesting that you mention Darwin..........

Apparently, Darwin was a Christian in early life. That is, until his wife died. At that point, he began to hate God, and sought to disprove his existance via his theories. However, on his deathbed, he renounced all of his theories... and the scientific world ignored him, claiming that his final words were the ravings of a dying man.
Just thought you might find that interesting.

If Darwin did in fact denounce evolution on his deathbed that doesn't automatically mean the theory of evolution is false. I don't think Darwin championed the theory of evolution simply because he was mad at God for allowing his wife to die. I think he formulated it because of his observations on various expeditions. Anyhow, Darwin wasn't the only one who thought up the theory of evolution. Wallace, a contemporary of Darwin, came up with similiar theories independently but Darwin beat him to the punch as far getting the info out there first. I should say to that there are a lot of Christians out there who believe that evolution was God's means of creation and that Genesis represents this in an allegorical way.

And no, that is not the same argument as "Guns don't kill, its the people who wield them that do that." Its totally different, because a gun is made to kill people. Religion is not.
As for abolishing religion... 5 billion or so people might not like that idea all that much.

I agree with you on this. Religion seems to take the brunt of the blame for a lot when in fact any kind of philosophical or political system can breed fanatics and mayhem. I'm wary of anyone who is gunho on converting the world to their particular way of seeing things whether it's religious or not.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-09 00:33:36

I am a christian, but I think Genesis was exaggerated. I mean, how did 1 man get all of the animals in existence onto a relatively small boat, and keep everyone fed for 40 days? Maybe I'm interpreting this too literally...

And God creating the world in 7 days. Why would God take 7 days to create the world when he could have done it at the same time. I think a lot of the creation stories in the Bible are speculation, or blurred truth at least.

I mean, if a child asks you how the universe came to be, do you go to the trouble of explaining the big bang, energy-to-matter theory, inflation, branes, planetary formation, etc., or do you tell them that God did the whole job, and that's all you need to know?

clark · 2002-12-09 07:14:17

Nothing more bizzare than personal faith...

Imagine if you will a fish that lives in the center of the ocean. The little fish lives at a point where there is a thousand feet of ocean in every direction, up, down and all around. The fish is unable to go further than 100 feet in any direction, it can see no further than 500 feet in any direction.

What would this little fish's concept of their universe be?

Now, imagine that the universe, in all it's vastness, is our ocean. If we cannot see the boundaries, does that mean it dosen't have boundaries?

If we accept that God created all that is, and did so through the natural laws as we understand them, then it took god billions of years to craft the universe- a few more billion to devise and implement our wondours ecology. And that leaves only a few million years to evolve humans... and a few hasty eons to design our ability to form the socities we have today- any wonder we're so screwed up? We were a rush job by god.

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-09 08:05:01

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?

My question to you is, how could something that could never be destroyed be created in the first place?

My answer is obvious; that it always has been, and always will be. Time is irrelevant on these scales though; ?being? is meaningless to us, since we require the passing of time for anything to ?be.?

clark · 2002-12-09 08:52:04

So then time would neccessarily be a measure between the varying states of energy?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-09 15:10:23

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed, where did it come from in the first place?

That problem has kept me awake for many nights...

God has the same problem too. Just who created the creator? Has he just always been?

clark · 2002-12-09 15:30:52

Does it matter?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-09 15:38:40

No, in the big scheme of things all of the little questions (and most of the big questions too) just don't seem to matter.

Makes me want to put on my "Free Tibet" shirt and light up a nice fatty.

JUST JOKING! I'll keep this religious or scientific, either one.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-09 16:27:09

clark, you could say that time is a measure of varying energy states (ie, entropy verses order), but since we can't even observe such a variance beyond our own universe and domain, the concept is pointless. There are simply some things you can't know.

God has the same problem too. Just who created the creator? Has he just always been?

Why is that such a big deal, though? Time doesn't exist outside of this domain. What is God in a realm where time is non-existant; at least, in the way we know it to exist?

You cannot truely know God. At least, not from any observable point of view. Knowing God would be akin to knowing the universe. Impossible. (Although from a metaphysical point of view...)

If you can think of existing without time, then you might have a little idea of where I'm getting at.

clark · 2002-12-09 16:30:08

The Catholics call it purgatory....

dicktice · 2002-12-09 17:40:01

I do not think there are things we can't know, given time to figure them out. Our lifetimes are so short, by the time we settle down to thinking for real, it's over. Imagine double or triple your lifetime, the last half devoted to figuring out stuff. Our minds are really something!

soph · 2002-12-09 17:46:05

whats really something is the thinking that was done by people with 1/2 our lifetimes!

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-09 17:55:27

dicktice, quantum physics explicitly state that we can't know everything about a given momment, though. Probably a clue as to the underlying workings of the universe.

Perhaps we're just a ball of static...

soph · 2002-12-09 18:23:32

isnt quantam physics all based on loose probabilities? like, x or y could be happening at any given moment, and its probably somewhere between them...

i find it strange that the building blocks of matter would not follow the same rules as the resulting matter.

Preston · 2002-12-09 19:23:21

We can't know all the states of the universe, but maybe we can know all the laws of the universe.

AltToWar · 2002-12-09 22:07:22

By simply observing the universe, we change it.

By hitting an atom with a photon, to bounce back at our microscope, we change it's state.

When we look at any new information, we can have no choice but to try to shape that information into the context of what we already know.

By knowing somthing, we hope to recreate a structure outside of ourselves inside our minds. We are limited by our phisical brain makeup as to how we can create those internal representations.

As we probe deeper into the universe we will continue to run into the limits of our perception ability, and hopefully expand our minds to except new data. No matter how hard we try though, these perceptions will never be actuality, but the universe as best we can mirror it within ourselves.

clark · 2002-12-10 17:27:52

Now back on topic? sort of?

Perhaps many of the other intelligent species out there evolved on a planet with a thick atmosphere that emptied the night sky of the celestial heavens.

Perhaps the aliens cannot live beyond their own unique environment.

How would our species have developed without the moon or stars?

How about heavier gravity, and a thicker atmosphere- that effectively makes launching into space expensive- we have enough of a problem as it is.

Perhaps they lack the heavy metals to develop nuclear power plants.

Or, they lack the "rare earth" elements necessary for modern computers.

Imagine if they didn't have the transistor or a light bulb.

Perhaps they have a low tolerance to differentials in pressure- or radiation severely affects them.

Auqakah · 2002-12-20 17:01:11

Jesus, in the garden of Ghesemeny asked god to forget this whole "savior of the world" business, and let him just be an average joe.
When facing death, I suppose just about anybody will get some jitters, eh?

This isn't a good argument, INMHO.

Jesus asked God (who is neither male, nor female, being as God is divine; and also pre-gender... and since the Lord created humanity and genders in the first place, the question only has meaning for egotistical hormone-driven humans, really ) to forget the '"saviour of the world" business', as you so succintly put it, because of the pain and suffering it was causing. Not to him, but to his mother, the woman around him who supported him to the end, and the disciples who would all betray him - and have to not only live to regret it, but account for it at Judgement.

It was a selfless act, and not a selfish act - and therefore your argument does not have merit with that as support.

The argument doesn't have merit, anyway, because he renounced his theories. And if your saying he did that because of fear - that doesn't make sense. Why would a newly-reformed Christian (evidence: renouncement of his whole evolution-type-tripe) fear death? He would have been calm, collected - and if I recall, he was. There was even a written statement, I believe - which was burned some years later. There were witness accounts, though, and I'm sure they could be dug up in any good reference section in a library.

Oh, and for anyone wondering why I think evolution is tripe, I point out that I do not disagree that a bunch of animals and people simply popping into being is absurd (why design an elaborate universe with elaborate rules and then break them all in one fell stroke?)... but directed natural selection is a far more accurate description of development of life. Once things hit the balance, God took a step back, and Bob's your uncle, good ol' Terra as we know it is alive and kicking. Of course, the design was so good that there are countless redundancies (the universe loves redundancies, after all) to allow for climatic change, etcetera - but thats not that difficult for an omnipotent being, really.

Oh, and one other thing.

The whole world was flooded once. But it was a tad before the accepted arrival of humanity on the scene. It remains to be seen whether the date of our arrival will go backwards, or forwards - but I doubt the current estimates are accurate. After all, as time passes, the likelihood of finding remains - especially human remains, as we don't preserve all that well, generally - is more and more slim. But recent claims by some scientists suggest that life was here very quickly after the Earth was mostly-fully-formed - just under 4 billion years ago. And a crystal found in Australia last year proves that volcanic activity happened far earlier than was ever previously suggested - again, just under four billion years ago.

Our view of the history of this blue and green jewel we inhabit is frequently being revised, and updated. Thus, for the time being, much of our planets history is out of reach for us, in reality. So... in a fashion... all bets are off, for the time being. Everything remains simple conjecture from too little data. And in the next fifty years, science will prove me right on that, time and time again.

Note:

My apologies if I have covered points already covered, and thus bored your poor eyes but I read that post (the one thats quoted above) and just had to comment - even though I hadn't finished reading yet.

What can I say? I have a big mouth.

The following was typed out after I read it. Just to avoid confusion. - And I couldn't see the point in adding a second post. Like only using one side of the paper, that is.

Right. Enough waffle.

I've wondered many, many times about where the universe came from - (to repeat, for my purposes - I get confused otherwise, at this time of night) if energy can neither be created, nor destroyed... and all things are essentially energy... then where did the energy come from?

The question is one that is baffling, obviously.

But I think it has a simple answer, actually. The universe is our habitat, our home. We know nothing else. We are geared entirely (thankfully!) to exist here. If we weren't... we wouldn't be capable of survival, probably.

So we look at things in a very narrow way. We ask, "What existed before the universe? How could it come of nothing?"

But I think, despite all of the theologists and priests and other Christian learned people through the last century debating this issue, none of them has touched it quite so well as - of all people, considering - a Hindu, who's name I can't remember, from well over a thousand years ago. He said, "Before creation, all things were in the mind of God."

A few Muslim mullah's in the third century also said similar things, too.

I think that is mostly symbolic in its helpfulness - but it set me on the train of thought.

What if the universe is God? Or God's mind? Or whatever?

In that case, Creation would have been something akin to a human being re-ordering neurones in their own brain... maybe.

But that doesn't answer the question: where did God come from?

The simple answer is,

Nowhere!

The clues are all in the Bible.

I won't direct quote - people sometimes find that irritating, and I have no wish to bash you about the head with the Bible - its really a heavy book... - but basically,

1. The Bible, on several occasions, refers to the Lord as being omnipresent. Everywhere, and anywhere. Always around us, and at our side. What is always at our side, always around us, and everywhere and anywhere that we go?

2. The Bible (unfortunatley for us) was scripted many years ago. Thats problematic now, because language has changed. What we have might be quite different from the original texts in some places, in context - albeit unintentionally. But, metaphors are always marked as such, in the Bible. The parables, for example. Therefore, "image" means just that. "Image". All meanings of it apply; physically we are like God, mentally we are like God (flooding the Earth? Aren't we kinda doing that now, on a smaller scale? Hmmm...), and spiritually we are like God. Or maybe not. But we are made of the universe around us; and we are like God in that respect; he made the universe, and made us from the universe. And that is similar; an image, a simile. Could be that, too.

But where did God come from? Not Brixton, thats for sure. But did God need to come from anywhere? After all... we are thinking about it in our narrow way. We only have our universe as an example.

God might be the universe. The universe is all around us; it is everywhere we look, and anywhere we go. It is, in a contradictoray way, indestructible (being made of energy).

Or did God make the universe in 'His' image... and make us from that?

But I think God made the universe from 'Himself', so to speak. Its hard to grasp; the language is difficult to express.

So. If you want to know the answer, theres only really two ways to find out. The long road: physics. The short road: the Bible.

"Those who seek knowledge before God shall become as fools."

I've always found that poignant, especially when coupled with,

"And God gave unto Adam (note: And Eve!) the task of naming all things in Creation."

So it is our task, our destiny, to seek knowledge; but the answers are all in front of us already - in the Bible. But we don't get to know things until we have to, unfortunatley. So we might have to just wait... and find out. Oh, well. Bang goes my theory....

But I think it raises some interesting questions, at least, no?

soph · 2002-12-20 18:14:04

So. If you want to know the answer, theres only really two ways to find out. The long road: physics. The short road: the Bible.

an interesting bunch of points. however, the bible is merely a book. if we took every religious book and said it was the short road to finding god, we'd come out with nothing, because there are so many different answers to what god is. you may believe the bible tells us what god is, and thats fine. but you cant assume that because you believe that...i dont know how to phrase it...theory (sounds pretty harsh, but i dont mean it offensively), that its the only plausible answer.

it is possible to say that god is the universe. in that case, god is not something to be worshipped, but observed. should we worship the earth as a divine being as well?

i am in no way bashing any religion. i am just pointing out that nothing in our current understanding is solid, uncontestable fact. especially since the bible was written a good time after jesus died, and LONG after the supposed creation of the world, and adam and eve.

in my mind, the bible should be perceived the same way we perceive much of early A.D. science. The bible presented the beliefs and explanations of people at the time it was written. They didnt have telescopes back then, and they believed the world was flat, the sky was made of crystals, and the earth was the center of the universe. surely, we can't say they were primitive people, and then embrace the bible as pure fact. the bible had to be written by somebody. much the same as the torah, or koran. and the bible is partially founded on the writings in the torah...so you are relying on those fundamental truths as well.

Auqakah · 2002-12-22 07:09:11

you may believe the bible tells us what god is, and thats fine. but you cant assume that because you believe that...i dont know how to phrase it...theory (sounds pretty harsh, but i dont mean it offensively), that its the only plausible answer.
it is possible to say that god is the universe. in that case, god is not something to be worshipped, but observed. should we worship the earth as a divine being as well?
i am in no way bashing any religion. i am just pointing out that nothing in our current understanding is solid, uncontestable fact. especially since the bible was written a good time after jesus died, and LONG after the supposed creation of the world, and adam and eve...in my mind, the bible should be perceived the same way we perceive much of early A.D. science. The bible presented the beliefs and explanations of people at the time it was written. They didnt have telescopes back then, and they believed the world was flat, the sky was made of crystals, and the earth was the center of the universe. surely, we can't say they were primitive people, and then embrace the bible as pure fact. the bible had to be written by somebody. much the same as the torah, or koran. and the bible is partially founded on the writings in the torah...so you are relying on those fundamental truths as well.

No offense taken.

I know what God is. I don't need the Bible to tell me; faith does that.

The question isn't who, or what, God is, anyway, but how and why God is.

And the question is also, how and why was Creation... created?

God isn't the universe; but the universe could be part of God, I suppose. I didn't really manage to explain my views correctly in the last post; forgive me for that, but its a tough cookie of a subject.

The Earth is no more a divine being than I am; its a hunk of a number of elements with 2km thick biosphere. Nothing particuarly divine about that. But in a way, we certainly should[worship it; its our home, and one way we could (and should! ) worship it is in the way that we treat it. If we were to think of the world as holy, then perhaps we'd treat it a little better.

Then again, the people in the Middle East believe their lands are holy. Look how they treat them... So maybe not such a good idea?

Moving on, anyway. Faith has nothing to do with solid fact. And it is true that the Bible was inked many years ago, but many years after the events of which it tells. But, in order to understand the Bible, it must be read in-context. Christians (of which I am one, although I try to maintain a dual viewpoint; a balance between science and faith) believe the Bible was written by God through the hands of the people who actually put the ink to the page. So, read in that context... facts no longer matter. Imagine if you had all the knowledge that ever was; you knew the history of both the past, the present, the future - not just for you, but for every person, animal, mineral, vegetable... every star, every speck of hydrogen. And on top of that, you created the whole shebang. Now, you decide to write this book.... to teach your creations about how they were created, and to give them some pointers and tips and hints (and laws) on how to live. After all, you made them. You deserve a little something back, in gratitude, or whatever. (Remember your parents saying that? If you have kids, I bet you've said it, too.) So you should be worshipped by these creations, too.

But here is the snag: these creations of yours really aren't all that smart. They don't understand how the universe works, after all. Oh, they can count, maybe to a couple of thousand - if you ignore the Chinese (and wouldn't we all like to? ) - but their mathematical genius, for the most part, ends there.

So how do you word it? How do you impart to them the knowledge that you have, small pieces at a time? And without giving everything away immediatley?

Thats got to be a tough book to write, wouldn't you say?

So, God thought, "I know! I'll get some people to write it... in their words... but with my inspiration. That way, nothing is too complicated for them to understand, if they think hard enough... and everything gets laid out from more than one perspective."

And from that perspective, the Bible really is quite different. And note how well it lasts; despite being two thousand years old (or so) it still makes sense - for anyone. And all in just over a thousand pages. Not once is the message confused - no contradictions. Not real ones, anyhow. Apply common sense and any contradictions or misunderstandings are pretty clear.

And there are small, small things that speak of a vast understanding behind the words that any living person back then could not have had. The world being 'cleansed with fire' - the sun swallowing the Earth in a billion years time?

'Go forth and multiply, and be as many as the stars.' A prediction that one day, there will be space travel?

'And a star shall fall from the sky, and scorch the Earth; and that star shall forever be known as Wormwood.' Nuclear power? 'Chernobyl' is Ukraine for 'Wormwood'. That particular quote is in Ezekial, but I always forget where.

And the list goes on and on.

So... just a book?

Admittedly, I'm biased.

But my point wasn't that the Bible tells us who, or what God is - no. My point was - there is much to learn from the Bible.

Oh, and, incidentally - even the order of Creation in Genesis is correct. 'Sky', stars, Earth, moon, animals, humanity.

soph · 2002-12-22 07:48:15

i still dont think its anything a reasonably intelligent human couldnt come up with. humans have always been fascinated with the stars, and the ten commandments existed long before the bible, and i believe these are just common sense morals of the time.

why would god make these 10 rules, and these 10 rules only, for salvation? they are too human, and they are based on human experience and values.

it is pretty obvious that the celestial bodies came before people. and as humanity advanced, would not god update it? wouldnt he right "revisions" through someone. or in these admittedely dark times, wouldnt he send a sign?

and nuclear power being stretched to chernobyl being stretched to a star scorching the earth seems a stretch to me.

why would he allow us to destroy ourselves?

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Re: Is there any point in wondering? - Isn't the question answered, after all?

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