ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

clark · 2002-10-11 14:38:52

This thread is intended for all information pertaining to the European Space Agency (ESA) Auroura program, which is comprised of several mission goals, including a Human to Mars program.

Here is a link from Space.com

http://www.space.com/news/astronotes-1.html

The text:

One buzz among many at the World Space Congress is Europe?s go-ahead on spelling out a strategy for human and
robotic exploration of the Moon, Mars, as well as asteroids.

The European Space Agency (ESA) wants to hone a multi-decade program under its Aurora initiative. Early this week,
ESA approved the start of assessment studies for the first four robotic missions in the program: Two "Flagship"
missions, and two "Arrow" missions.

For the lower costing, but technologically rich Arrow-class experiments, ESA green-lighted: A re-entry vehicle/capsule
test in Earth orbit geared to validate how best to return samples from Mars to Earth. Also approved is a Mars
Aerocapture demonstrator ? hardware would enter Mars orbit by using friction with the planet?s upper atmosphere and a
skill eventually to be used on piloted expeditions to the red planet.

For the up-scale, more costly Flagship-class endeavors, ESA approved the Exo-Mars mission ? a fully equipped rover to
search for Martian life. A second project, a Mars Sample Return mission also has been okayed.

The just approved studies will help clarify feasibility and mission requirements and open the way to the early phase of
the industrial work in 2003.

As currently envisaged, the main milestones of the Aurora program are: two Mars Sample Return missions (2011-2017);
the decision to go ahead with a human mission (2015); a robotic outpost on Mars and possible human mission to the
Moon (2020 - 2025); and a human mission to Mars (2025 - 2030).

Mark S · 2002-10-11 19:23:10

Does ESA have any plans to develop an independent human spaceflight capability before they send humans to Mars? Obviously, they must, but I haven't heard any details. Hermes was supposed to be Europe's ride into space, but the French pulled out and the project unraveled. Is there a successor program to Hermes? Will the ESA build an Apollo-style capsule, as they had discussed after the demise of Hermes?

nebob2 · 2002-10-11 19:27:02

This is exactly what the NASA needs, copetition! It got us into space, it got us to the moon, and it would sure get us to Mars.

The USA, Russia, or perhaps even the PRC, would not sit idle as the ESA takes the lead. Working together may reduce costs, but working abart may mean it actually happens.

I say make it a race, the ultimate World's Cup, and may everyone win in the end. Onward to Mars!

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-11 19:42:17

I still think an ESA/Russia alliance would be the quickest way to Mars.
Russia lacks cash, but has the booster technology and long-term space survival experience. The ESA has the cash and the computer expertise etc.

Let them go into direct competition against the U.S. and see what happens!

nebob2 · 2002-10-11 23:57:12

If a push was made, NASA would have both, and the bulk of advanced propulsion research. Nothing would be worse then being passed enroute. Currently no one has a HLV, the Russians have the plans, but Energia only flew twice, with one failure. The US has the technology as well, we have flown a few big fireworks before.

I would like to see the ESA develope as an independant player in the manned arena. Europe has the resources to support a vast space program if they so wish. The more routs to space, the cheaper access will be.

Having all the major power really planning missions at once would get the world excited about space in a way never seen before. It would be just what we need to garner the support for a colony on Mars, one which could eventually include everyone.

RobertDyck · 2002-10-12 00:55:09

Europe is working on a manned capability for space in a very practical way. They are working with NASA to complete the X-38/CRV. They intend to use the X-38 on top of an Ariane 5 rocket as a crew taxi to ISS.

I challenge the characterization of the second launch of Energia as a failure. The Energia launch vehicle did its job of launching the Polyus satellite to an altitude of 200km. That satellite was supposed to circularize its orbit with onboard thrusters. Can you blame Energia if the satellite's thrusters failed?

Bill White · 2002-10-12 09:18:15

Europe is working on a manned capability for space in a very practical way. They are working with NASA to complete the X-38/CRV. They intend to use the X-38 on top of an Ariane 5 rocket as a crew taxi to ISS.

If Germany helps, they can call it the Volks-shuttle.

Sounds like it would be less expensive than using multiple Soyuz and much less expensive than using the current US Shuttle to ferry crew.

Any links or other sources we can look at?

Mark S · 2002-10-12 10:36:50

The X-38 CRV has been replaced by a similar vehicle, known as the Crew Tranfer/Rescue Vehicle (CTRV.) This is suppoised to be the crew taxi stage of the Space Launch Initiative, but companies like Orbital Sciences and Boeing have also suggested launching the CTRV on a Delta IV Heavy rocket. I don't know if ESA has been cut entirely out of the program or whether thay will continue the X-38 with their own funding.

nirgal · 2002-10-12 11:57:17

I don't know about esa's plans to go forward with the X38 (NASA put the program on ice several months ago). There were plans to launch it on top of an Ariane 5 but I think these are outdated by now. At the moment esa is looking into a completely new RLV design: The suborbital Hopper which could be ready by 2015. It makes use of the Ariane 5's vulcain main engines and is launched on a sled from the launch center in south america. It overflies the atlantic and releases a small upperstage when it has reached its maximum altitude of 130 km before gliding to an unpowered landing. The upperstage then pushes the payload the rest of the way to orbit. There is already a small prototype of it which is undergoing testing right now.
At first the Hopper will be unmanned but a manned version is planned later on, too.

Links: Europe's Phoenix: Test Craft Sets Stage For Reusable Rocketry

There aren't many pictures of the Hopper on the net but here is a good one:

Picture

Bill White · 2002-10-15 08:27:18

Another story on Aurora - Europe's first steps towards Mars

Lets hope the ESA is serious about this.

dickbill · 2002-10-15 14:31:03

I don't believe a world of that X38 whatever europeen project.
Hermes has been abandonned,
the martian return sample has been abandonned,
That X38 project will be abandonned, but not without wasting a good deal of european taxpayers money before some the politician decide to give up.
There is no ambitiuous space exploration program in europe. The europeen space agency just tries to follow the NASA footstep, carefully, and without any risks, trying to repeat what NASA has done 20 years earlyer.
Hermes, the small 20 tons space shuttle, despite all the money and time spended and wasted, they gave up on that important project! In the same time they also gave up the experience and technology challenge associated with HERMES. Experience in science is inevaluable, 10 years of experience in space tecnology worth billions of dollars. I estimate the value of the JPL crew, the scientific staff and its experience (in space navigation for example) as one of the most valuable american achievment today. It's not difficult to understand, what is difficult to understand is why the ESA gave up such opportunity to build such a good experience 15 years ago.
Money is wasted in astronomical amount in europe and in france in particular: excessive "frais de bouche" for the Parisian ex mayor (now french president) for example, just enough to fund 10 thesis research, but rather to invest in science education, better invest in partying with your friends and your very private secretary right ?

Believe me, all of you in this list, there is nothing to wait from the public agencies. Mars colonization will be done on a private basis.

nirgal · 2002-10-15 15:54:40

...the martian return sample has been abandonned

What are you talking about? As far as I know there never were any plans for a european sample return mission until now but maybe you know better...?

Hermes, the small 20 tons space shuttle, despite all the money and time spended and wasted, they gave up on that important project! In the same time they also gave up the experience and technology challenge associated with HERMES. Experience in science is inevaluable, 10 years of experience in space tecnology worth billions of dollars. I estimate the value of the JPL crew, the scientific staff and its experience (in space navigation for example) as one of the most valuable american achievment today. It's not difficult to understand, what is difficult to understand is why the ESA gave up such opportunity to build such a good experience 15 years ago.

I agree; it's a shame that the Hermes program was abandoned but you also have to see the politicians' point of view in this: Hermes was billions over budget and years behind schedule and there was no immediate need for it. We europeans can always use the Shuttle or the Soyuz.
And we still have the Ariane 5 which has a very good flight record to date (except that sofware glitch on the very first mission which led to a catastrophic failure) and will secure europe's competitiveness in space for at least another decade.

Read about Hermes' cancellation here.

dickbill · 2002-10-15 19:13:23

from the aurora web site, first comment: the use of the "this will be done" formula like scientist are forced to use to get their grants: "...then, when this will have been demonstrated, that other thing will be done, based on that, this and this will be deduced and this and this will be done. Alternatively, this will be done if this previous thing didn't work..."

But let's read it:

"The Mars Sample Return mission.
A composite vehicle will carry into a Mars orbit both a descent module and an Earth re-entry vehicle. The descent module will carry to the surface of Mars a landing platform equipped with a sample collecting device and an ascent
vehicle. A modest landing accuracy is expected to be sufficient for a mission bringing back the first ever sample of Martian soil."

All right, until there it doesn't look too risky, but no aerobraking please, just put a big fat arianeV to cary a heavy Mars lander and return vehicle.

"The ascent vehicle will carry a small canister containing the sample into a low altitude circular Mars orbit (e.g. 150 km) for a rendezvous with the Earth re-entry vehicle."

uhoh, a rendez vous with another space craft ? risky but " A vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire" so lets see what they say:

"A Mars Sample Return mission requires a number of enabling technologies, which are not yet (or not fully) available in Europe. This concerns mainly the landing system, the ascent
vehicle, the rendezvous system in Mars orbit and the Earth re-entry vehicle/ capsule.
These technologies will be developed during two precursor Arrow missions:
Earth re-entry vehicle / capsule. The envisaged mission will use a small spacecraft in a highly elliptical Earth orbit. The vehicle will be propelled towards the Earth under conditions similar to those that would be experienced by an interplanetary return capsule. This mission is a necessary
preparatory step for the first Mars Sample Return Mission.

Mars Aerocapture demonstrator. A small mission with the specific goal of validating technology that can slow a
spacecraft and allow it to enter orbit around Mars by using friction with the planet's upper atmosphere. This will later be applied in a future Flagship mission, and eventually to the human mission elements."

So my humble opinion is that this mission is too big and endless in cost for a few rewarding. It needs some previous demonstrators missions and trials and if evrything goes well, two space ships to Mars, so:
1) Alltogether, the price of this mission WILL be huge. That the only "WILL" that I am sure. Zubrin would say that for the price you could send human (I exagerate but still).
2) It s a risky mission, are the governments ready to face a defeat after spending billions of billions on that project ? european will look ridiculous if the mission fails.
3) it's a one shot only Mars project. If you want to conquest Mars, don't put all your eggs and your money in the same bag. I would prefer many smaller projects in such a way that a failure in one wouldn't affect significantly the other.

The necessary Mars internet network would be such a long term investment. Shuttle C would be a long term valuable investment for a man mission. I dont say that the sample return mission is impossible, I just say that it is unnecessary risky. Anyway, as I said, I think millions of euros will be spent on that project, then a government following a political change in europe will find this project too risky and expensive and will decide to retire and finally to abandon the mission. And they will do well. How ridiculous the european scientist will look in front of the tax payers if the sample misses the return vehicle for example. The situation would be different if 2 or 3 such projects were set up, like for the Viking, to raise the likelyhood of success. But then the price goes up.

What about the media coverture now ? stones in a container...3 billions dollars for that, typical scientist stuff. What the public (taxpayer) wants to see, and be ready to pay, is some theater and dream: Interactive Rovers, Gliders, Penetrators, The polar cap, The great canyons, Balloons, Mens !

dickbill · 2002-10-15 20:08:39

I want to add something to clarify my personnal views. I don't think that science is bad of course, I am a scientist myself, but I think that the interest of the public for Mars and space in general has relatively few to do with science. It is more about curiosity, dream, beauty.
Scientific discory is the first step, but now, I think it is unfair to spend millions of dollars or euros in projects that might interest primiraly only the scientists. After all, the money comes from the taxpayers, from everybody, might be a geologist, a biologist, or not a scientist.

Why not to consider this new concept:
For space and Mars exploration, includes 50% of sciences and 50% of "discovery" or "pioneering" activities, even with relatively few direct scientific return. For example, set up a microbiospere/green house with plants and a camera inside.
Now, I understand that ESA or NASA's first goal is science, but remember that american pionneers were not all scientist, the first french in Quebec were not scientist. America was not colonized for its scientific interest and Mars won't be colonized by scientist either.

Mark S · 2003-01-14 23:21:32

It looks like ESA is getting serious about Aurora and Mars.

I still believe that ESA will need some kind of indigenous manned spaceflight capability before they undertake Aurora (such as a resurrected Hermes), or they can team with the Russians / invite Russia into the ESA. But its good to know they're putting a date of 2030 on humans to Mars (a date at which I will not have died from old age. )

My hope is that serious European studies of Mars exploration will stimulate NASA to respond in kind. My view of the next twenty years is that the European states will unite and challenge American dominance in trade and international stewardship / leadership. Nothing would bring me more joy and pride than a renewed space race which brought two competing teams to Mars. Perhaps some competition is all we needed to stimulate the stagnant exploration of space.

tim_perdue · 2003-02-05 22:34:30

This thread is intended for all information pertaining to the European Space Agency (ESA) Auroura program, which is comprised of several mission goals, including a Human to Mars program.

Yeah right. The europeans can't even sort out "Galileo" amongst themselves, let alone a mars program.

And what's the deal with stealing US codenames? Aurora? Galileo? What's next, Challenger and Hubble?

Ad Astra · 2003-03-01 18:20:26

ESA is now saying that two more Mars missions will be launched as part of Aurora: ExoMars and Mars Sample Return. ExoMars will launch in 2009, MSR in 2011 (probably ahead of the American effort, if current schedules and plans hold.) More info can be found in Space.Com's "Astro Notes." I wonder if the U.S.-French-Italian MSR effort will be the basis for the Aurora MSR.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-09-29 12:21:43

lander goal for Mars
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4423883.stm
bed rest study
http://www.esa.int/esaHS/SEMZZ4808BE_research_0.html
Russians and ESA are going to work together
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4286086.stm

EuroLauncher · 2005-10-20 08:34:39

Aurora technology development activities accessible via main Aurora web page
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Aurora/SEM0BD5Y3EE_0.html
Included in the site's content are first, dedicated pages giving an overview of the key technological challenges involved in the main Aurora missions: ExoMars and Mars Sample Return. The site then also contains sections on the main exploration capabilities such as entry, descent and landing systems, mobility etc. which allow access to descriptions of the specific development activities in each field, and where possible, links to the executive summaries of the final reports of these activities.

Can we have another go at CryoSat, please?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/11 … ncounting/
ESA is next meeting to discuss its budget in December. Member states' science ministers will have a lot of missions competing for their budgets, including the long-term Aurora project, which will see European space craft travel to Mars, and a possible collaboration with Russia to build Kliper, a rival to the US' Shuttle.
Spokespeople for the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC) and the Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council (PPARC) in the UK both said it was too early to say how sympathetic the UK would be to proposals to re-run the CryoSat mission

publiusr · 2005-10-21 15:27:31

Let them push for Ariane -M and I'll love them.

MikkelR · 2005-12-10 08:17:13

Taken from physicsweb.org

Another project to get more than was asked for was the Exomars mission. Due to take off in 2011, this will involve sending a rover to search for signs of life on Mars. It will receive some €550m over the next six years. This will be complemented by a further €150m to start the development of future robotic and human exploration missions to the Moon and Mars.

This is great news, ESAs ExoMars rover will liftoff in 2011 on a soyuz 2b from Korou and land on the martian surface sometime in 2013. ESA said that if the program received extra funding, the mission could be coupled with an orbiter aswell, meaning the launch vehicle would be an ariane V launcher, instead of the cheaper soyuz. The details of the mission is still on the drawing board.

Artist's concept of the ExoMars rover

Rxke · 2005-12-10 08:37:57

Another project to get more than was asked for

:shock: Wowza!

Something you don't hear every year...

EuroLauncher · 2006-01-07 17:52:17

Another project to get more than was asked for
:shock: Wowza!
Something you don't hear every year...

its true

http://www.france-science.org/home/

story

5: EXOMARS MAY BE READY FOR LAUNCH IN 2011

The ExoMars probe has finally received the funding needed (650 million euros –slightly more than expected) that will most likely allow it to be launched, via a Soyouz rocket, in 2011. Unfortunately, the new date will mean that it will take the probe two years to reach Mars, while the two American rovers and even the Mars Express probe only needed seven months when launched in 2003. Once it arrives, ExoMars will not be looking for signs of water on the Red Planet, instead it will search for bacterial life by analyzing soil samples. It is also equipped with a drill allowing ExoMars to take samples up to two meters underground. Its laser will be able to vaporize rocks in its path; the minerals will then be analyzed. Nevertheless, one very important question still remains: how to ensure the transmission of the data gathered and the reception of any incoming orders? For budgetary reasons ExoMars will not be able to be launched with its own “orbiter”, a satellite launched along with the probe which separates as it approaches the planet and acts as a relay for the information transmitted. It may be necessary to buy this service from the United States. However, it may still be possible to finance a small European orbiter with the extra money awarded to the program during the ESA Ministerial Council. [Le Monde 12/26/05]

This thread is intended for all information pertaining to the European Space Agency (ESA) Auroura program, which is comprised of several mission goals, including a Human to Mars program.
Yeah right. The europeans can't even sort out "Galileo" amongst themselves, let alone a mars program.
And what's the deal with stealing US codenames? Aurora? Galileo? What's next, Challenger and Hubble?

codename ???
Aurora was a Greek/Roman Goddess while the atmospheric effect was described in old Old Norse literature and Latvian folklore, Galilei was Italian, while the Hubble telescope is a joint ESA-NASA mission, and the new Galileo Sat was already sorted out and launched smart-ass so trying reading up on history some time

back to the ESA - Aurora Program
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1952

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-08-05 07:50:33

I still think an ESA/Russia alliance would be the quickest way to Mars.
Russia lacks cash, but has the booster technology and long-term space survival experience. The ESA has the cash and the computer expertise etc.
Let them go into direct competition against the U.S. and see what happens!

ESA study on pdf
ftp://ftp.estec.esa.nl/pub/aurora/Human … ersion.pdf
Human Missions to Mars

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#1 2002-10-11 14:38:52

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#2 2002-10-11 19:23:10

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#3 2002-10-11 19:27:02

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#4 2002-10-11 19:42:17

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#5 2002-10-11 23:57:12

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#6 2002-10-12 00:55:09

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#7 2002-10-12 09:18:15

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#8 2002-10-12 10:36:50

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#9 2002-10-12 11:57:17

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#10 2002-10-15 08:27:18

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#11 2002-10-15 14:31:03

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#12 2002-10-15 15:54:40

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#13 2002-10-15 19:13:23

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#14 2002-10-15 20:08:39

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#15 2003-01-14 23:21:32

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#16 2003-02-05 22:34:30

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#17 2003-03-01 18:20:26

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#18 2005-09-29 12:21:43

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#19 2005-10-20 08:34:39

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#20 2005-10-21 15:27:31

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#21 2005-12-10 08:17:13

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#22 2005-12-10 08:37:57

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#23 2006-01-07 17:52:17

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

#24 2006-08-05 07:50:33

Re: ESA's Auroua - Humans to Mars 2025-30 - Auroua Program, facts, links, discussion

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