Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

BWhite · 2005-03-23 22:11:19

http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id … ert=0]This article asserts that cargo can be increased by 2 to 3 times over Soyuz (Progress?) launched from Baikanur.

Kourou's proximity to the equator will allow carriers to take two or three times more freight than their counterparts lifting off from the Baikonur space center in Kazakhstan (a rent agreement for it was signed in 1994 for twenty years and costs Russia $115 million a year). A single Soyuz launch will enable Russia to save up to $60 million.

Is this cargo carried along with 3 cosmonauts (if so, then not that big a deal) or is the Progress payload doubled or tripled? I did not think the equatorial leverage was that great.

Why isn't Ariane a much better value than it actually is, for this same reason?

= = =

Looks like cargo only.

Experts predict hard times ahead for Baikonur, as the number of launches there will decrease. However, it would be impracticable to launch manned space flights from Kourou, because it does not have the available ranges for rescue operations in an emergency.

Okay, take a standard Progress and increase payload by 250% (splitting the 2x to 3x) - - what is the per pound to LEO work out to be?

Edited By BWhite on 1111637640

BWhite · 2005-03-23 22:22:54

Progress at Kouru would seem to render the ESA http://www.astronautix.com/craft/esahicle.htm]ATV virtually obsolete from a price competition point of view.

3K - 5K kg for $25 million (Progress)

7.5K kg for $170 million (ATV + Ariane)

= = =

http://www.esrin.esa.it/export/SPECIALS … 0.html]ESA ATV appears to have other uses, greater waste disposal and ISS boost capability but an Ariane V is still waaay more expensive than an R-7.

= = =

Although the concept of a space tug or transfer vehicle for moving astronauts and equipment to different Earth orbits has been envisioned for decades by different space agencies, the European built ATV will be the most powerful space tug ever built. If required in future programmes, the ATV could also evolve to be used as a transfer vehicle carrying tonnes of supplies to the Moon orbit and beyond.

Edited By BWhite on 1111638578

SpaceNut · 2005-03-24 06:29:31

So we see one of the side benifits of equatorial launch in that we can loft heavier payloads and that we get a little help with the launch speed. But with nothing to send all this new found capacity to then does it really make any difference if nothing is planned for its use capabilities of more payload to LEO?

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-11 18:31:39

some news on it

Europe looks at Russia Klipper

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050705/40848 … 48713.html
http://www.physorg.com/news4929.html]ht … s4929.html
http://en.rian.ru/science/20050614/4052 … 22014.html
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ?pid=17113
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050614/40518 … 18570.html

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-17 01:25:59

Possibility of Russian Soyuz rockets being launched from the Kourou launch site in French Guiana. Kliper was displayed in several air shows around Europe and Asia. Externally its design is comparable to the cancelled European mini-shuttle Hermes (shuttle) or the NASA study X-38. The Russian Space Agency especially looked to Europe as ESA has become its major partner in space activities during the last years. In May 2005 rumours started in the press that Europe would join the Kliper project in a specially funded venture that would be part of the Aurora Programme. These rumours turned out to be correct, when both Russian and European space officials announced their cooperation to build Kliper during the Paris Air Show in Le Bourget 2005

Soyuz is due to be launched by Arianespace for the first time in 2007 and will complement the European heavy-class Ariane 5 and small Vega launchers. The Klipper craft can carry up to six people and can be used for ferry services between earth and the International Space Station, but is also planned to be the crew module for further trips to the Moon and Mars.At present the Soyuz rocket will not be able to lift Kliper into lower earth orbit, because the spacecraft is planned to weigh between 13 and 14.5 metric tons with payload and crew whereas Soyuz only has a lifting capacity of around 8 metric tons. It was therefore planned to heavily enhance the Soyuz rocket - a project that was labelled the Onega rocket. However as of 2005 it is much more likely that Kliper will take off on a Angara-A3 rocket, which is scheduled to make its first launch 2006-2007 or under certain circumstances on a Zenit rocket that is built in Ukraine. Kliper is planned to be a flexible spacecraft, that should have the capability to be launched both from Plesetsk or Baikonur and the European spaceport in French Guiana Kourou. As of June 2005 it is unclear whether the Ariane 5 rocket, that was originally designed to bring the European Hermes shuttle into orbit, will be used as a launch vehicle beside Russian launch carriers.

Some Proton missions will be moved [from Russian space centers] to Kourou, French Guiana. Vladimir Taneev, the leading designer of the Kliper system speculated on the contribution of Europe to the project in the following way: The European companies will likely contribute avionics, materials, and cabin systems. Many different options are on the table, and in the near future we expect to form Russian-European working groups specialized in different subsystems and fields of design. Both the project itself and the funding questions will be debated in a European space summit in December 2005.

Work on the new launch pad, dedicated to the Russian launcher and costing an estimated €344 million, can now begin at Europe’s Spaceport in Kourou. On return from space, Kliper's lifting body design will not only allow a smoother descent into earth's atmosphere, it will also allow some steering - in contrast to the Soyuz capsule design. RKK Energia claims the craft would be able to land in a predetermined one square kilometer area.

Here are some past links on it

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050715/40913 … 13984.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_A … ..._0.html
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8526124/site/ne … /newsweek/
Russian Kliper thread on newmars
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … ...4;t=443

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wo … paris.html
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ?pid=17336
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/ESA_Permane … ..._0.html

bolbuyk · 2005-10-01 11:52:51

This article asserts that cargo can be increased by 2 to 3 times over Soyuz (Progress?) launched from Baikanur.
Kourou's proximity to the equator will allow carriers to take two or three times more freight than their counterparts lifting off from the Baikonur space center in Kazakhstan (a rent agreement for it was signed in 1994 for twenty years and costs Russia $115 million a year). A single Soyuz launch will enable Russia to save up to $60 million.
Is this cargo carried along with 3 cosmonauts (if so, then not that big a deal) or is the Progress payload doubled or tripled? I did not think the equatorial leverage was that great.
Why isn't Ariane a much better value than it actually is, for this same reason?
= = =
Looks like cargo only.
Experts predict hard times ahead for Baikonur, as the number of launches there will decrease. However, it would be impracticable to launch manned space flights from Kourou, because it does not have the available ranges for rescue operations in an emergency.
Okay, take a standard Progress and increase payload by 250% (splitting the 2x to 3x) - - what is the per pound to LEO work out to be?

Edited By BWhite on 1111637640

Due to the rotational velocity of the earth, the difference in total delta-v to achieve is about maximal 400 m/s. Working with a last stage-Isp of about 340 s this will result in a maximum gain of 13% (8.4 MT will became 9.5 MT). This is a rough guess, but without drastically engineering the existing rocket the gain in mass will be not higher than taht 13%, assuming the easiest obtaineble LEO is chosen (5 degree inclination instead of 51 degree as from Baikonour).

Commodore · 2005-10-01 16:12:55

With launches being so much cheaper from South American, even the Russians will be kicking themselves for putting the ISS in its Urkraine-friendly orbit.

RobertDyck · 2005-10-01 17:32:38

ISS was placed at 51.6° inclination to match the latitude of Svobodniy Cosmodrome, with Angara launch pads at 51.6°. It's in Khabarovsk province near the Sea of Okhotsk, close to Japan. Russia has 4 cosmodromes, the other 3 are Plesetsk at 62.7°N in Arkhangelsk province near the Barents Sea, close to Finland; Kapustin Yar at 48.51°N latitude in Astrakhan province on the border with Kazakhstan; and Baikonur in Kazakhstan. Plesetsk is too far north, it's intended for polar launches. Kapustin Yar is military, launch pads for R-5 (first Soviet missile, upgraded from Nazi V-2), R-12, R-14, Burya, Kosmos 63S1, Vertikal, and Pioneer (SS-20). Servicing ISS must be done from Baikonur or Svobodniy. Since the break-up of the Soviety Union, Kazakhstan is no longer part of their country so they wanted to move all operations to Svobodniy. They started to build R-7 and Angara 5 launch sites there, but found out how much it would cost.

ISS is not in a Ukraine-friendly orbit, it's a Russia-friendly orbit. They could have put ISS at 45° inclination for Baikonur (Kazakhstan-friendly) but Angara isn't flying yet, and Russian politicians are still arguing whether to complete new pads at Svobodniy or convert Proton pads at Baikonur. Proton will continue to fly until Angara 5 is ready to replace it.

Besides, Skylab flew at 435km orbit @ 50.0° inclination. Its orbit also varied due to drag, but that was its nominal orbit. ISS is at 407km nominal orbit @ 51.6° inclination, not much different. America didn't have to make any consessions to Russian for Skylab but chose practically an identical orbit as ISS. I don't think we can blame Russia for the inclination.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-11-16 17:45:07

Arianespace's Ariane 5 ECA returned to the launch zone at Europe's Spaceport, allowing the final countdown to resume for a liftoff tonight with a heavyweight dual satellite payload.
Ariane 5 rolled out of the final assembly building at 10:30 a.m. yesterday and completed its 2.8-km. transfer to the ELA-3 launch zone in 60 minutes. The vehicle rode atop its massive launch table, which is now locked in place over large flame ducts for the vehicle's two solid rocket motors and its core stage Vulcain cryogenic main engine.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18310
Liftoff of the Ariane 5 ECA with its Spaceway 2 and Telkom 2 spacecraft is set for a 45-minute launch window that opens at 8:46 p.m. (23h46 GMT; 7:46 p.m. in Washington, D.C.; and 00:46 a.m. on November 17 in Paris, France).
The mission's Boeing-built Spaceway 2 satellite will enable U.S. operator DIRECTV to bring local high-definition programming to most of the American population, as well as expand its standard-definition local offerings.

A lighter version of the Kliper six-crew reusable spacecraft is under consideration, say Russian and European sources.
link
The new variant would not have the accommodation module previously seen attached to the capsule. Instead, on reaching orbit, it would dock with a proposed space tug, the Parom, operating from the International Space Station (ISS).

GIOVE - standing for 'Galileo In-Orbit Validation Element' - is the name that has been chosen for the two satellites which are currently being prepared to take the first step of the In-Orbit Validation phase towards full deployment of Galileo, the European satellite navigation system
http://www.noticias.info/asp/aspComunic … 6816&src=0
GIOVE A, the first of the two satellites, was presented to the media while undergoing final preparations at the ESTEC test facilities prior to being sent to the Baikonur cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, from where it will be launched by a Soyuz rocket at the end of December 2005. The second, GIOVE B, will be launched later in 2006

BWhite · 2005-11-16 18:08:05

Due to the rotational velocity of the earth, the difference in total delta-v to achieve is about maximal 400 m/s. Working with a last stage-Isp of about 340 s this will result in a maximum gain of 13% (8.4 MT will became 9.5 MT). This is a rough guess, but without drastically engineering the existing rocket the gain in mass will be not higher than taht 13%, assuming the easiest obtaineble LEO is chosen (5 degree inclination instead of 51 degree as from Baikonour).

Okay, but lets distinguish between gross payload and net payload.

If we add 1.1MT inside the Progress, with all else being equal, perhaps the net useable cargo will increase far more substantially that 13%.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2006-01-10 03:12:19

Space Industry in Russia
http://globalpolitician.com/articledes. … d=4&sid=33
... Clipper is the culmination of a decade of research, development, and geopolitical maneuvering, involving many other elements.

Russian modernized Soyuz rocket to be launched next year
http://it.moldova.org/stiri/eng/7666/
The first trial launch was successfully done last November. The new rocket will be launched for the Defense Ministry needs and commercial projects. It is planned to launch Soyuz 2 from Plesetsk, and its modification, Soyuz ST, from the Kourou spaceport in French Guiana, Itar-Tass reports

GCNRevenger · 2006-01-10 12:57:00

It should be noted however that Soyuz-II is not Onega

publiusr · 2006-01-27 16:48:45

Onega needs the hydrogen upper stage99to match Zenit with similar capability without hydrogen. The astronotes section at Space.com suggests Kliper may be launched by Zenit after all.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-03-13 23:02:12

pics

Soyuz in French Guiana

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-05-05 21:27:26

Russia-Australian launch pad project unfeasible - expert

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=11713523

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-05-20 12:40:46

Russia And ESA Sign Contract For Four Soyuz Launches From Kourou

Samara-based design bureau Progress plans to sign a contract with the European Space Agency at Le Bourget air show for the launch of four Soyuz-ST carrier rockets from the Kourou space center in French Guiana. Progress spokesman Alexander Kirilin said the first contract will be signed in mid-June.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2007-09-01 05:57:41

http://www.cnes.fr/web/4755-the-soyuz-launcher.php

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2008-02-20 09:41:27

I don't think they will be doing manned flights

Soyuz will launch communication satellites into geostationary orbit

cIclops · 2008-02-20 11:22:48

Right. Almost all crew flights go to the ISS, and Kourou is a worse launch site to get there than KSC. Kourou is good for GEO satellites as it's about optimal for reaching equatorial orbit.

GCNRevenger · 2008-02-20 15:31:22

And isn't the old Delta-II going to be retired soon? Leaving only the expensive EELVs.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-02-26 08:28:04

Russia suspends space launches from French Guiana over sanctions

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russ … s_999.html

"In response to EU sanctions against our enterprises, Roskosmos is suspending cooperation with European partners over organising space launches from the Kourou cosmodrome and withdrawing its technical personnel... from French Guiana," Dmitry Rogozin, chief of the Russian space agency, said on messaging app Telegram.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-26 20:05:01

Russia suspends Soyuz rocket launches over European sanctions

Roscosmos says it’s working on a plan to withdraw all 87 of its staff from the Guiana Space Center in Kourou, who assisted with Soyuz rocket launches for Roscosmos and other Russian companies.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-27 12:45:37

Europe Cancels Joint Moon Missions with Russia

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … th-russia/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-26 03:24:04

The key question is how the F9 launch vibration spectrum (which may affect Euclid’s delicate instruments) differs from Ariane/Soyuz. SpaceX has indicated that it will undertake a feasibility study of launching Euclid on Falcon 9 and that this study could be completed by the end of the summer, with a possible launch date as early as Q4 2023.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07 … se-spacex/

'Will the Ukraine war force ESA to pass on Arianespace, use SpaceX?'

or what of this other idea we have discussed in newmars.
French Guiana South America can rent a launch pad site to Space-X, the Soyuz is replaced and Musk gets even more mass to LEO

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-12 14:24:14

Europe eyes Musk’s SpaceX to replace Russian rockets

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/12/europe- … ckets.html

The European Space Agency (ESA) has begun preliminary technical discussions with Elon Musk’s SpaceX that could lead to the temporary use of its launchers after the Ukraine conflict blocked Western access to Russia’s Soyuz rockets.

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#1 2005-03-23 22:11:19

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#2 2005-03-23 22:22:54

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#3 2005-03-24 06:29:31

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#4 2005-07-11 18:31:39

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#5 2005-07-17 01:25:59

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#6 2005-10-01 11:52:51

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#7 2005-10-01 16:12:55

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#8 2005-10-01 17:32:38

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#9 2005-11-16 17:45:07

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#10 2005-11-16 18:08:05

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#11 2006-01-10 03:12:19

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#12 2006-01-10 12:57:00

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#13 2006-01-27 16:48:45

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#14 2007-03-13 23:02:12

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#15 2007-05-05 21:27:26

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#16 2007-05-20 12:40:46

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#17 2007-09-01 05:57:41

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#18 2008-02-20 09:41:27

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#19 2008-02-20 11:22:48

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#20 2008-02-20 15:31:22

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#21 2022-02-26 08:28:04

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#22 2022-02-26 20:05:01

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#23 2022-04-27 12:45:37

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#24 2022-07-26 03:24:04

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

#25 2022-08-12 14:24:14

Re: Soyuz at Kouru - How much more mass to LEo?

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