Looking for information on how to test for water

Torraway · 2005-11-02 16:05:26

I'm taking a spacecraft design class at Stanford Uninversity. Our current class project is to design and build a simulated lunar rover to look for water on the surface of the moon. I wanted to get some information as to how the some of the Martian probes (Viking) and Lunar Rover tested for water. Does anyone know of some good websites I can research?

Thanks!

Torraway

Dook · 2005-11-02 17:53:18

Water? I assume you meant ice. Anyway Lunar Prospector's neutron spectrometer detected hydrogen (probably ice) at the lunar south and north poles. Frozen methane may also be located there.

Some ice is expected to be trapped in the permanent shadows of surface craters.

Maybe design a solar powered rover (with battery backup for when it goes into shadows) that can drill regolith samples and place them into something (spectrometer?? or gas chromatography??) that analyzes the sample.

Or maybe a rover that detects water vapor evaporating from the lunar surface on the sun side. It's sensor would have to be extremely sensitive. It may also be designed to detect other evaporating gasses.

Also your rover may need a satellite in stationary orbit over the rover to send and receive information from the earth.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/ice/ice_moon.html

noosfractal · 2005-11-02 18:24:31

I think you want a near-infrared spectrometer.

Here is a site about the one carried by the Mars rover ...

http://minites.asu.edu/

Particularly ...

http://minites.asu.edu/Mini-TES_Overview.pdf

Good luck with your project. Let us know what you go with.
_

Torraway · 2005-11-02 20:11:42

Thanks for the info. The first step of our project is to design a mission architecture (SMAD is our textbook). I'm gathering information right now and determining mission objectives and mission parameters. I'll keep everyone posted.

Torraway · 2005-11-02 20:28:22

I think you want a near-infrared spectrometer.
Here is a site about the one carried by the Mars rover ...
http://minites.asu.edu/
Particularly ...
http://minites.asu.edu/Mini-TES_Overview.pdf
Good luck with your project. Let us know what you go with.
_

I found this on the link you gave me:

In Gusev Crater, mini-TES will look for minerals like carbonates and sulfates that form only in the presence of water. Finding them will provide strong evidence that Gusev was once a lake.

I don't know much about the lunar and Martian geology. Are these carbonates and sulfates also on the moon?

noosfractal · 2005-11-02 22:06:02

In Gusev Crater, mini-TES will look for minerals like carbonates and sulfates that form only in the presence of water. Finding them will provide strong evidence that Gusev was once a lake.
I don't know much about the lunar and Martian geology. Are these carbonates and sulfates also on the moon?

It is very unlikely. On Mars the current theory is that there were lakes and oceans at one time giving time for such minerals to form. Any water on the Moon is thought to have come from asteroid and comet impacts. And, as Dook said, will probably be in the form of relatively pure ice.

You may wish to learn more about infrared spectroscopy ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_spectroscopy

H2O will have a particular spectral fingerprint.
_

Dook · 2005-11-04 17:38:33

It's a waste of time to look for evidence of water (carbonates and sulfates) on the moon. There is no atmosphere there so that means the boiling point of water is very low and with pure sun or complete darkness any water would instantly evaporate or freeze. That's why I recommended a sensor that can detect water vapor.

I really hope that looking for water is not the assignment. If it's to look for ice then I would understand.

Also I don't believe any of the Viking missions tested for water. The only test was that water was added to mars regolith to see if there was any biological matter in it.

noosfractal · 2005-11-04 21:42:53

Also I don't believe any of the Viking missions tested for water. The only test was that water was added to mars regolith to see if there was any biological matter in it.

The landers didn't, but the orbiters had a a near-infrared spectrometer that was called the Mars Atmospheric Water Detector (MAWD).

http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/missio … /mawd.html
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Torraway · 2005-11-05 01:15:59

It's a waste of time to look for evidence of water (carbonates and sulfates) on the moon. There is no atmosphere there so that means the boiling point of water is very low and with pure sun or complete darkness any water would instantly evaporate or freeze. That's why I recommended a sensor that can detect water vapor.
I really hope that looking for water is not the assignment. If it's to look for ice then I would understand.
Also I don't believe any of the Viking missions tested for water. The only test was that water was added to mars regolith to see if there was any biological matter in it.

By "water" I meant H2O in any form. I always thought liquid water on the Moon is impossible. However, ice has apparently been "detected" indirectly by the Clementine spacecraft in 1994.

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Dec96/IceonMoon.html

However, the Lunar Prospector found no water.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/te … 991013.txt

noosfractal · 2005-11-05 02:46:12

However, the Lunar Prospector found no water.
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/te … 991013.txt

That's really interesting. The Prospector detected lots of hydrogen, but the impact didn't produce the expected plume of H2O. The temperature in the luna shade is supposed to be around 100 K (-280 F). That's cold, but hydrogen is still easily a gas. I suppose they looked for methane and ammonia signatures? I wonder what form the hydrogen is in?

For mining purposes, it doesn't really matter. There is lots of oxygen in the luna regolith. As long as we can get hydrogen somehow, we can make water and rocket fuel
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SpaceNut · 2005-11-09 22:10:03

We have been utilizing the rovers Opportunity and spirit in an effort to follow the water or at least the trace evidence that has been left behind. But it would seem to me that we need to ask are we even in the right place to be looking.

Simulations Show Liquid Water Could Exist on Mars University of Arkansas researchers have become the first scientists to show that liquid water could exist for considerable times on the surface of Mars.

This hydrogen distribution map from Los Alamos National Laboratories shows where hydrogen that may be tied up in water exists on Mars

So where should we be looking for water:

Researchers have debated whether or not liquid water could exist on the surface of Mars because of the low temperatures and pressures found on the planet. Based on previous experiments and hypotheses, scientists have speculated that pure water on the planet's surface would evaporate from solid to gas, bypassing the liquid phase, at the low pressures found on Mars - 7 millibars as opposed to about 1,013 millibars on Earth. However, the planet's surface sports features like gullies and channels that look as though they might have been created by the movement of liquid. Terrestrial experiments designed to simulate Mars-like conditions have been performed to help answer this question of whether or not liquid water exists on Mars, but until this point they have only been done with pure water at high pressures.

But why pure water on mars as far as I know even on earth water is never in a pure state there is amost always some other minerals mixed in.

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#1 2005-11-02 16:05:26

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#2 2005-11-02 17:53:18

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#3 2005-11-02 18:24:31

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#4 2005-11-02 20:11:42

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#5 2005-11-02 20:28:22

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#6 2005-11-02 22:06:02

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#7 2005-11-04 17:38:33

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#8 2005-11-04 21:42:53

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#9 2005-11-05 01:15:59

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#10 2005-11-05 02:46:12

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

#11 2005-11-09 22:10:03

Re: Looking for information on how to test for water

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