Thoughts on producing an atmosphere on the Moon

srmeaney · 2005-10-28 03:24:20

Manufacture an amino acid atmosphere that is heavy enough not to blow away.

Dook · 2005-10-28 15:08:44

Even if we could do that, what would that be good for?

srmeaney · 2005-10-28 17:41:28

There are a number of reasons to pursue an aminoacid atmosphere on the moon.

1. There is the lowering of radiation levels combined with "airpressure" this means we are looking for a life form capable of proliferation in an aminoacid environment. Perhaps our greatest achievement will be the creation of a fungal rainforest on the moon that lives off an amino acid atmosphere and lunar soil.
This would allow us to spread high order life to even small moons.

This is rather important unless you intend for humans to remain on earth with only the occasional expedition to space by a scientific elite.

2. Cause we can.

noosfractal · 2005-10-28 18:16:36

Let’s swim to the moon
Let’s climb through the tide
You reach your hand to hold me
But I can’t be your guide
Easy, I to love you
As I watch you glide
Falling through wet forests
On our moonlight drive
Moonlight drive
Moonlight drive

Dook · 2005-10-28 21:00:45

How are you going to transport or create enough amino acids to have an atmosphere?

How does this amino acid combined with air pressure atmosphere work in the intense heat/cold of space?

How do amino acids lower radiation levels?

I don't think anyone other than you would consider a fungus covered moon to be a 'great achievement' and it's certainly not 'high order life'.

Cause we can? Insufficient reason to justify the huge expense, risk, and time wasted. We can also use the surface of the moon as radioactive storage for all of our spent nuclear reactors...just because we can.

srmeaney · 2005-10-29 07:43:43

Probably produced at the bottom of deep wells until they are full. Will require use of lunar material to manufacture and the need for equipment to create.

Estimate cost: 1 billion billion. planetary atmosphere of Amino Acids.Toxic to humans but who cares. We are trying to create and proliferate life.

Dook · 2005-10-29 10:27:53

I really don't understand you at all.

What is the point of covering the moon in bacteria?

You think God will look upon us and say "Hey, nice going!"

The universe wasn't created so fungus could proliferate.

srmeaney · 2005-10-29 18:12:07

I really don't understand you at all.
What is the point of covering the moon in bacteria?
You think God will look upon us and say "Hey, nice going!"
The universe wasn't created so fungus could proliferate.

For starters, because the majority of the world doesnt hold with the fraudulent nature of that statement.
If we are "it" then we have an obligation to spread life as far and fast as we can that it survive the suntan its going to get in this solar system.

There are things we need to do. You can sit in the corner and wait for a god to show up and directly govern your right to freedom or we can be happily surprised by the fact that there isnt one, accept the fact that all those evil acts of slaughter and carnage were just something the Human race did when it fed off itself, and get past the mental illness that compels us to need one.
I for one know damn well that anyone showing up and claiming to be God will be a liar.

Any life is good. Just because you dont see humans doesnt mean that the building blocks to assemble them wont be there. Think about it.
If your children desire to be a part of that, they will need to change citizenship and put the sanctity of life above religion, politics, hate, despair and all the other shitty things that have held humanity back.

Now if you will excuse me, I'm going try to build a Space Commonwealth and with the help of others spread life across the Universe because we can and must.

Dook · 2005-10-29 20:52:45

You think the majority of the world (not sure if you are including single celled amoeba in that category) supports your insane idea that we spend trillions and risk many, many lives, waste hundreds or even thousands of years, just so some fungus can attempt to gain a foothold on a barren rock?

We have no obligation whatsoever. We do what we choose to do. We have complete freedom. And we are absolutely not "it". If we were we could never, ever, ever, hope to spread life any farther than our own galaxy so what would the point be in having a universe with trillions of galaxies? As a side note, the proliferation of life throughout the universe is being done by comets. And you think all of this is just a chance happening, a magical roll of a million dice that all end up perfect.

God won't show up. We are on our own. He created all of this so you can do and build whatever you want and out of all the incredible things we can imagine for our future you want fungus on the moon? Sigh...

Since God isn't playing God to your liking you take the task upon yourself. I think you are the one who should sit in the corner because you are definately not ready for the job.

You're excused.

noosfractal · 2005-10-30 03:48:24

If you give an atmosphere to the Moon, you lose the atmosphere because some of the molecules in the exosphere exceed escape velocity. You don't lose molecules below the exosphere because even if they get fast, the atmosphere is dense enough so that they don't travel very far before bouncing off another atom, which prevents them from getting on an escape trajectory.

One idea has been to build a physical roof for the entire moon. This is, of course, madness - or at least overkill. I was reading about laser cooling and how you can use tuned lasers to modify the velocity of atoms and I thought that maybe you could put a set of satellites in orbit around the moon (maybe as few as 12, but lets say 60), each one of which would produce a laser disk (tangent to the moon's surface) tuned at different times to different atoms and atomic velocities. Together, the disks would make up a laser roof.

Instead of heating the rarefied gases of the exosphere, the lasers could be tuned to cool the gases, or at least knock the atoms out of escape trajectories. Lunar escape velocity is approx 2300 m/sec. Room temperature gases average only 500 m/sec, but exceed escape velocity at the high end of the Maxwell distribution. You can never stop the loss, but you only need to attenuate the high end of the Maxwell distribution to significantly lower the loss rate, e.g., from 100s of years to 1000s or even tens of thousands. Even better, you can tune for the gases you care about most like nitrogen and oxygen.

You could also do the same on Mars, but you'll probably need more satellites - you don't want the energy levels to get too high, otherwise you'll heat the gas instead of cooling it.
.

srmeaney · 2005-10-31 01:46:54

Noosofractal, I think the laser suggestion is interseting but...Do we want a process where leakage of an Amino acid atmosphere scatters the building blocks for life across the open wastes of space? The moon becomes an engine for the creation of life.
Frankly they might as well build the entire colony underground noosfractal, use the surface as the roof. No need to build when already have one in place. The point of an aminoacid atmosphere is that it is sufficiently heavy to stay wrapped around the Moon as opposed to a NO2 or CO2 atmosphere which would not be sufficient.

As to DOOK, Who says you qualify for a say in the Space commonwealth anyway? If you are not with the program, you are a threat to it. The policies of the Commonwealth will need to be set in place before the citizen selection bureau begins a recruitment drive to ensure we are not wasting resources on dangerous idiots. The task of the Space Commonwealth is to make space habitable for its citizens and use its resources to the best effect. There is no process as efficient as the planet that produces its own amino acids.

There are only so many seats on the shuttles...You advocate dangerous terrorist philosophies against the rule of law and good order. See that on your security file.

Building an atmosphere on the moon is for the purpose of sustaining life beyond just humans. At best it will be Amino Acid feeders that are capable of developing in to cellular organisms in this environment. If we are lucky it might be a Fungal rainforest proving some achievement in our ability to make even a barren rock habitable.

noosfractal · 2005-10-31 03:53:56

Do we want a process where leakage of an Amino acid atmosphere scatters the building blocks for life across the open wastes of space?

Well now, if you don't want your leaking gases to just spiral into the Sun, then you'll need to accelerate them to 50 km/sec. Room temperature (300 K) gases only average 0.5 km/sec, so I don't think you're going to get that by accident. You'd need some sort of accelerator. Also remember that the Moon isn't going to create any atoms for you. You're going to have to replace whatever you lose.

Frankly they might as well build the entire colony underground noosfractal, use the surface as the roof. No need to build when already have one in place.

I suppose as long as the underground dome was large enough to have weather - say 1 km radius - and sufficient quantities of natural light could be funneled down to it, then it wouldn't be a bad life. Now we just need a way to excavate a couple of cubic kilometers of luna rock.

The point of an aminoacid atmosphere is that it is sufficiently heavy to stay wrapped around the Moon as opposed to a NO2 or CO2 atmosphere which would not be sufficient.

Even providing a bar of atmospheric pressure would make life significantly easier, even if you couldn't breath it. It'd be best if you see through it though. Are there molecules that heavy that are transparent to visible frequencies?
_

srmeaney · 2005-10-31 03:58:48

I suppose as long as the underground dome was large enough to have weather - say 1 km radius - and sufficient quantities of natural light could be funneled down to it, then it wouldn't be a bad life. Now we just need a way to excavate a couple of cubic kilometers of luna rock.

They are called Miners and they do that every day.

They can dig the cave, build the dome in the cave, fill the gap above the dome with water, freeze it to ice, dig away the surface rock exposing an ice shielded dome. Bingo! One Dome on the Moon.

chat · 2005-10-31 04:41:20

srmeaney,

Good plan to build a domed place on the moon, but what about the bar pressure on a 1km wide dome on the moon at even 10 psi?

I couldn't imagine any 1km structure on earth pressured to 25 or 30 psi being able to withstand the sheer weight pushing outward.

A new sort of literal astrodome (boom) *lol*

Dook · 2005-10-31 07:48:18

As to DOOK, Who says you qualify for a say in the Space commonwealth anyway? If you are not with the program, you are a threat to it. The policies of the Commonwealth will need to be set in place before the citizen selection bureau begins a recruitment drive to ensure we are not wasting resources on dangerous idiots. The task of the Space Commonwealth is to make space habitable for its citizens and use its resources to the best effect. There is no process as efficient as the planet that produces its own amino acids.

You live in a fantasy world. There is no Space Commonwealth. Not even in Star Trek. You are in charge of nothing.

"There is no process as efficient as the planet that produces it's own amino acids." Huh? As if you have suddently discovered the ultimate goal of your life. A sludge covered moon.

Too many whacko's, not enough comets.

srmeaney · 2005-11-01 04:50:51

And yet you offer no alternative than wave the flag and walk about on dirt with some false assumption that Space is yours by right of god?

Over on redcolony.com they talk about space. They say "Space is for mankind"
But there is no room. We need life to sustain "our" existance. Were cutting that number by the millions every day.

You know that unless a single government has exclusive territorial and governmental rights over space beyond earth that it will be genocide.
You know that None of the existing nations will allow any other to have total control of what is out there.
You know that the cost can only be supported by what resources exist here and out there.
You know that once you are dead you will have no say in anything.

Yet you are opposed to underground cities on the moon,
you dont want to be held back and limited to just your share,
you are opposed to national quotas to ensure every civilization is represented by their population,
you are opposed to anything other than a select few going to space as though it was the holy land and astronauts where gods chosen few.

You cant think like that.

Its hard enough to understand that of the six billion who will die on this world, technology and resources focused to perfection will get ten million every hundred years off this planet.

Space Commonwealth is the only way. And we cant wait for you to catch up emotionaly, or psycologicaly or even philosophicaly. It must be done now, right from the beginning with or without you.

I know that it will be hard for a lot of people to accept that, but you must.

The priority is life. If we must build an underground megacity for ten million people on the moon and an amino acid atmosphere around it to sustain some fungal rainforest that life might have a second go even if it is not us, then that is what we do.

karov · 2005-11-01 13:53:00

Ok, srmeaney -- lets assume that we have transported on the moon all these >10exp18s of hydrogen, nitrogen and carbon, necessary to be transformed via, I understand biological processes of synthesis to an global ocean of aminoacids... it is logical on first glance in order to avoid atmosphere dissipation to use for such "atmosphere" heavier molecules..., but:

1. Why call the aminoacids` ocean an "atmosphere" -- do you see at in gaseous form?

2. What stops the hard solar and cosmic both photonic and patricle radiation from destroing the aminoacids in shorter chemical chains, eventually to be completely depolymerized to CO2, CO, H2O, O2, NO, N2O, CH4... etc., etc., gases and THEY to be blown away of the gravity well of the Moon?

3. Is this water solution of aminoacids or "pure" aminoacids content? If say 50% of the sludge is water, than how we will hold the water in liquid form, without an gaseous envelope above it to press it down with the necessary amount of milibars?

Questions like that...

Dook · 2005-11-01 19:26:27

I offer no alternatives? I have authored posts about terraforming, mars exploration vehicles, NASA's 2006 budget, and posted replies to hundreds of others. Just because you disagree with my replies here does not mean that I am not doing my share.

Replies to your "You know" rants in order:
1) What factual proof do you have that more than one government having rights in space will lead to genocide?
2) No nation will allow any other to have total control of space? I disagree but that is not likely to happen anyway. Russia put up the first satellite then we followed and space has seen other countries equipment up there as well.
3) Cost can only be supported by resources here and there? Yeah, at least until that shipment of dilithium crystals arrives from Vulcan.
4) When I'm dead I will have no say in anything? Souls are everlasting energy.
5) I'm opposed to underground cities on the moon? Of course I am. There are so many better things we can and should do.
6) Sigh...One morning when I was on my way to school I heard on the radio that the space shuttle had exploded on liftoff. Seven Americans dead and what was the urgent mission they were on? They were to deploy a satellite, deploy a module to observe Halley's comet, and perform seven experiments. All of those things could have been done at a later time when the weather warmed up. NOTHING we do in space is worth the sacrificing of human lives. Sure it's a dangerous business but you have to get enough benefit to make the risks worthwhile to humanity. I know you are too young to understand this.
7) Six billion dying on this world? Uh, how so. I must have missed that episode of Star Trek.
8 There is no Space Commonwealth and it does not have to be done now or ever. And we have all the time in the world to make sure that when we do go we know exactly what to expect.
9) The priority is life? No, the priority is growing, and no they are not the same thing.

srmeaney · 2005-11-02 06:28:26

Karov:
(1) You will find that while amino acids enjoy the liquid state here on earth, they enjoy the gaseous state in the far lesser gravity of the moon. It should look like ground hugging smog given sufficient volume.
(2) We will make them from the limited materials of the moon and only if said materials exist. It is sufficient to just have underground cities that are agricultural complexes and mining operations on the Moon. The ability to supply Amino Acids produced locally are critical considering plants must take in amino acids from the soil to live and grow. If we have sufficient capacity to achieve an atmosphere for what ever life form we can sustain on the surface, then we do more.
(3) Yes things break down and blow away. The Moon with its continuous exposed side is going to have a loss out there that is quite significant. It will also have a cold dark side where the amino acids will build up in the soils and two poles where it will settle out of the full intensity of the sun.

Just be thankful that we are not going to core to the heart of the moon, pack it with nuclear waste and let it go molten with some idea to trigger volcanic activity, crust expansion, and continental plate formation.

Dook: It will cost 2 billion billion dollars and take a hundred years at a level of space industry that is beyond where we are now to construct a space habitat with the population capacity of a million people. Even that is beyond the ability of the United States. The ability of the few to control the many is failing fast for the US and it's economy was built on that. Do you think the American people are going to toe the line so a few elite billionares can go live on a space habitat that will eat the resources that could have put the children and grandchildren of the entire american population through school, given them good medical coverage and nice homes and a good future?

(1) Historical precedence and Current Patterns in Government and Private sector thinking. The increasing payrise that went to your Boss just after you were forced to take a paycut. The fact that you have no place in the future they are building.
(2) Current legislation requires the private sector presence in space to be governed and controlled by its nation. Do you even understand what the cutbacks mean in the US government. It means that when George W. Bush is done destroying the Government that destroyed his grandpappy, the USA is going to be a friendless, brainless, corrupt cesspool of a dictatorship run from the nearest corporate boardroom. No one who will have plans to turn that arround will be allowed near the White house. Good people will cower in fear at the prospect of assassination.
(3)Dilithium...funny! Unfortunately the future you are headed for is an economy of resource exchange. You will be responsible for the education of your children. You will slave your life away with the dream that it will be better for your children and that they will do better for theirs. The economic drop outs and poor underclass will not be catered to unless they are on the front line securing resources at the expenditure of their own lives. Capitalism is just starting its feeding cycle and you are the food.
(4) You fell for that lie too huh?
(5) Unfortunately underground cities on the moon are a hell of a lot more efficient than the build your own moon version.
(6) And yet millions are sacrificed yearly to do what we do on this planet. Why do you think what will happen in space will be any different?
(7) Try thinking on a temporal level. If rock hits earth, every one dies there for all on earth now are an extinct line. Only those surviving off world have a future beyond the next asteroid hit.
(8) You will wish otherwise after they come home from a hundred billion dollar Lunar mission and cancel the manned program after the Lunar territorial dispute with China. A dispute now that Australia has decided to side economicly with China that will cost the USA its economy. They are already dependent on China and will conceed the Moon to the singular state of China to keep economic growth.
(9)You will learn otherwise. Life is more important than you can imagine.
Growth? what? spiritual? economic? territorial? emotional?
The survival of life is more important than all of these things. And the fact that it isnt a priority is why young Americans are dying at the rate of one a Day on the streets on Baghdad and the US government is considering reintroducing the Draft because not enough are willing to die for the economic survival of their nation.
Do you know the difference between a Dead US marine and a Palestinian suicide bomber? the flag covering the body. Its just pieces of cloth covering the bodies of the brainwashed martyrs who went where they were told.

Now do you see why the entire world needs a Space Commonwealth?

karov · 2005-11-03 03:56:54

You mean kinda suspension of aminoacids?

What suspends them - gas or liquid?

Earthfirst · 2005-11-03 15:14:24

srmeaney you are crazy to think China will take the moon from America! As soon as the first commie sum set foot on the moon the American people will demand that are government get to work and keep the moon for America.
Also Australia would side with its Anglishs brothers America, Cannada, Angland, and New zealand over and China commie sum. As a American I alwise thought of the fellow Anglic countrys of freinds. Also if Australia turned its back on a Anglish speaking country Americans would feel bad but it would have little effect on the US economy. China is also very dependent on the US for its developing economy, it would be unwise at this early stage to force America embargo on them. The US could easy force other countrys to embrgo china too. Chinas economy would be set back years, hurting their chances to get to the moon. America could easly just buy cheap goods from other developing countrys who would be more than happy to lick are boots clean. An economic embrgo would only hurt The US economy for a short time, we would just find new country to use. In a short time America would better than ever. But china closed off from the world would fall apart like the soviet Union did.
No China not powerful enough to show its cards, they of crouse don't mind waiting a 100 yrs, once their economy is powerful then it will make its move. China thinks that the US will decline like the rest of the west, since America still young it will take longer than Europe did. But with great leaders like GWB America wont be cowering for peace any time soon.
Also why did you bring by the US, China relation in a post about the moon? Please post that in the political forums. Also it a neat idea about amino acid air but please you dont have to blame America for every one of your troubles.
FYI America doing great, thats why you hate us so much. Why don't you just make another movie about crock hunters and shut up. I dont care about Asutralia, dont make Americans mad at you or we will liberate you like did to Iraq.
America is the Earth government, lick are boots or we will kick you like some stry dog. God Bless the USA! and Germany, Chile, and Bangcock. The best places on Earth.

srmeaney · 2005-11-03 19:56:02

You mean kinda suspension of aminoacids?
What suspends them - gas or liquid?

Karov, I was suggesting a 100% aminoacid atmosphere. Unfortunately I cant tell you what a cluster of Aminoacids do in Lunar Gravity.

One must assume that the Liquid state here is a Gaseous state there, but they cluster and interact like fiberous materials so in a low gravity state on the Moon, it would be almost like a ghostly silk web as materials go. But it would suspend itself somewhere between momentum hurling it into space and gravity pulling it down.
So constantly producing aminoacids would create a Lunar atmosphere of spidersilk...

Considering AminoAcids will be an Export comodity for making Mars and assorted other planets healthy for human consumption, the Moon is a good prospect for Industrial Production.
In Lunar Gravity, how long can you make a DNA Helix? Sufficient to produce a Cable?

I knew it was a mistake to discuss Space politics in a terraform thread.

Earthfirst,

Considering the Commonwealth of British nations has a global population and Global Territories that once included India and Pakistan, I would suggest that the Commonwealth not having a relationship with the USA would make the USA an English speaking Outcast.
Considering the Commonwealth has laws that prohibit treaties with states such as the US who are at war with friendly states, Australia and the Commonwealth will decide just who the friendly state is when China goes to War with the USA over Lunar Territorial claims.

China is intent on going to stay. That is beyond the ability of the USA. Considering the USA represents 1/24th of the planetary population, it has less authority than China who represent 1/6th (and in collective relationship with India 2/6th, the friends it is cultivating in Africa 3/6th, the rest of Asia who believe in a relationship with China 4/6th, all the South american countries the USA has ever pissed off 5/6th, The Commonwealth nations (who will wave to the USA and say hey what can ya do? 11/12th and Europe to the 23/24rd).
So if there is to be any embargo against "rogue" states it will be against the nuclear armed christian minority currently on an "angry face" rampage across the world hunting the vermin it armed and trained.

I guess the USA is backsliding into a third world minority afterall.

karov · 2005-11-04 13:19:31

You mean kinda suspension of aminoacids?
What suspends them - gas or liquid?
Karov, I was suggesting a 100% aminoacid atmosphere. Unfortunately I cant tell you what a cluster of Aminoacids do in Lunar Gravity.
One must assume that the Liquid state here is a Gaseous state there, but they cluster and interact like fiberous materials so in a low gravity state on the Moon, it would be almost like a ghostly silk web as materials go. But it would suspend itself somewhere between momentum hurling it into space and gravity pulling it down.
So constantly producing aminoacids would create a Lunar atmosphere of spidersilk...
Considering AminoAcids will be an Export comodity for making Mars and assorted other planets healthy for human consumption, the Moon is a good prospect for Industrial Production.
In Lunar Gravity, how long can you make a DNA Helix? Sufficient to produce a Cable?
I knew it was a mistake to discuss Space politics in a terraform thread.
.

Will not work.
In lunar gravity a cluster of aminoacids does the same as in earth one -- accumulates in thick sludge-- the sludge rapidly evaporates in gases, thermally and impactly depolymerized by the sun and the cosmic rays... Without atmosphere ( gaseous as the meaning of the term ), any spider silk will fall down and will settle on the surface as fast as rock or steel cable.

How long can you do DNA Helix in earth gravity ? or 1000x Earth gravity? Why do you think that the gravity afects so much such microscopic events as the biochemistry?

Even imagining that your miraclous spider-web "atmosphere" in some magical way "hovers" around the Moon --
1. What`s the surface pressure - 1 bar? more? less?
2. How much tonnes of aminoacids you need for such atmosphere?
3. How could you export something when NO CHN on Moon? From what are your "aminoacids" - Si-titanium-oxigen???

srmeaney · 2005-11-04 19:26:14

Why and how do you think the Moon should be terraformed?

Dook · 2005-11-04 19:48:49

Global warming will soon cause Australia to become a total desert and solar radiation will greatly increase the skin cancer rates of your pale population who will hide indoors and lose their technical and governing ability over the country.

The true Australians, Aborigines, will finally have their country to themselves but this will only be temporary because Indonesia will then invade and no one will come to your aid because there is no oil there and the world's changing racial preference against white oppressors of original people.

Sucks to be you.

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