Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

SpaceNut · 2005-09-27 20:03:16

Looks like the ESA is serious with going forward and not waiting for Nasa.....

GCNRevenger · 2005-09-27 20:07:57

I don't know what kind of snake-oil the Russians are selling, but if you tried to reenter that thing from Lunar transit velocities, the wing tips would melt right off.

Its half "me too" stunt versus CEV, and half Russian tourist venture.

And where will it go? Why, in circles of course! Nothing but circles, as we have for fifty years nearly.

John Creighton · 2005-09-27 20:12:17

Looks like the ESA is serious with going forward and not waiting for Nasa.....
Plans for Euro-Russian spaceplane

Looks like the Clipper and CEV have similar dates.

Russia intends to build the Clipper within the next decade, carrying out the first automatic test flight in 2011. The fleet would gradually be phased in, finally replacing the Soyuz in 2014. The first flights with cosmonauts would start around 2020, at a time when the world has set its sights on returning to the Moon.

The clipper looks very neat but I am sceptical of its ability to go to the moon. I wish Russia and NASA the best like. Will NASA finish the CEV first or Russia the clipper. The race is on.

GCNRevenger · 2005-09-27 20:18:10

Being that Klipper's back end is bodily copied from the front end of a Soyuz, its launch vehicle is a Souyz R-7 with less-antique engines or the 1970's (but flaky) Zenit-II, and the thing probobly uses Soyuz engines & hardware extensively, I think that kind of gives Russia an unfair head start.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-27 20:31:33

More snake oil promises as GCNRevenger would put it.
Did not want to get us to far off topic.

article on Kistler here.
Alternative Space ventures - are we on the road to cheaper access

SpaceNut · 2005-09-30 08:42:00

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9509254/]Russia thriving again on the final frontier
As NASA agonizes over vision, Russian space program picks up momentum[/url]

Article is full of history of Russian programs and commercial interest in not only the ISS but of MIR.

Details of klipper status within its 10 year plan.

publiusr · 2005-10-07 09:40:59

That is a good link.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-13 09:26:39

It appears that Russia is looking for more partners for the Klipper.
Russia Asks Japan to Take Part in Kliper Spacecraft Development

The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency has started collecting information on the program and will decide by the end of the year whether to accept the request, the officials said.
The European Space Agency is also considering taking part in the joint development and Japan’s participation would enable Russia, Japan and European nations to operate an international space station without relying on the U.S.
Russia has also told the Japanese agency that the development of the Kliper will cost approximately $870 million.

Gee not all that much when compare to the billions for cev....

Edit
Just a tidbit for comparison

Project Mercury -- cost $384 million in the 1960s, or about $2.5 billion in today's dollars.
End-to-end cost -- designing and constructing the reusable spacecraft, its rocket motor, its launch plane and a flight simulator -- was about $25 million

redhorizons · 2005-10-13 10:06:00

I will believe that figure when I see it in reality. I do not see it happening. All they have right now is a big model.
I am pretty handy with a saw and hammer, I could build a model CEV. But what the hell good is it.

publiusr · 2005-10-13 11:20:04

I perfer the term mock-up, and I for one do not question the ability of the former Soviets. Kliper will fly before CEV

redhorizons · 2005-10-13 11:50:22

I would like to see Klipper fly, but I just don't think that $870 in a realistic price tag. But the Russians may have more of the rest of the infastructure up and running.
Plus the Russian are able to partner with other international players. The U.S. is restricted from this because of stupid treaties... the Iran Nuclear Prolif. Act.
Go Russia

GCNRevenger · 2005-10-13 12:15:25

Now hold on just a minute...

Everybody seems to be getting this wild idea about what Klipper really is compared to the CEV.

Klipper is just a replacement for the back two-thirds of the Soyuz capsule, nothing more and nothing less. It will use the same rocket that Soyuz does with a modified upper stage, it will use the same docking/airlock module that Soyuz does (in the back rather then front), it will probobly use much of service module hardware from Soyuz (OMS/RCS engines, power, LSS, etc). You get the picture... It holds more in common with Soyuz then you think, and about 60-70% of Klipper will be repackaged Soyuz hardware.

CEV on the other hand will be a whole new ballgame: although it uses the same basic shape as Apollo, and uses Shuttle engines, the rest of it will be brand new, plus said engines will have to undergo signifigant changes. Considering the new nozzles and mounts for both engines, possibly with more signifigant modifications (new distruct charges for the former, computer/shut-down refit for the latter) most of the CEV will have to be built brand new.

I think the Russian estimate is probobly somewhat conservative, but not outrageously so. And even without the INA, there is no way in heck that NASA would buy anything more then tickets for astronauts on Russian launch vehicles. And even if Klipper does work, it won't take them any further then LEO.

redhorizons · 2005-10-13 12:35:08

Thank you for the lesson GCNRevernger, once again I learned something new. I really know/knew very little of the Klipper beside the press release and sound bytes.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-13 12:47:41

But what many seem to over look with regards to Klipper is what might be a lack of change in hardware is the fact that it will seat more than the current Soyuz.

If you want a paying customer you need seats and while the CEV will get the seats they still will not come cheap.

GCNRevenger · 2005-10-13 14:19:25

But seats to where? If its just seats to the ISS, big deal.

CEV will go all the way to the Moon and back. Barring the addition of dangerous and heavy active cooling, its questionable if Klipper can survive direct reentry from translunar velocities.

SpaceNut · 2005-10-18 09:13:26

[url=http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/10/18/Navigation/177/202167/Europe+adds+Kliper+to+Aurora+plan.html]Europe adds Kliper to Aurora plan
Reusable Russian spacecraft to be evaluated by space agency for updated exploration programme[/url]

A two-year, €50 million ($60.5 million) evaluation of Russia’s proposed Kliper six-crew reusable spacecraft is now part of the European Space Agency’s updated Aurora exploration programme. If approved by this December’s ESA ministerial meeting, the study will not be overseen by ESA’s launchers directorate, which is developing an Ariane 5 replacement by 2020.

How fast is development occuring:

Russia’s timetable for development of the Kliper may present problems for ESA involvement. “The Russians have already started the Kliper work. They have a very aggressive development schedule with a target date of 2011 for its maiden flight,”

SpaceNut · 2005-11-01 08:33:27

Lighter Kliper could make towed trip to ISS

A lighter version of the Kliper six-crew reusable spacecraft is under consideration, say Russian and European sources.
The new variant would not have the accommodation module previously seen attached to the capsule. Instead, on reaching orbit, it would dock with a proposed space tug, the Parom, operating from the International Space Station (ISS).
on a booster smaller than the proposed Soyuz-3. This may make it easier to launch from French Guiana

Changes made to allow it to be more of a cargo hauler with the use of an in orbit tug:

The second half of the configuration will stay on orbit and act as a space tug, collecting the manned spacecraft and taking it to the ISS and, at the end of the mission, taking it back down to a re-entry de-orbit altitude.”
Proposed by Moscow-based Kliper developer Energia, the Parom space tug would enable use of an unmanned version of the spacecraft that carries about 25t of cargo. Like the manned version, the cargo variant would be towed to and from the ISS.

publiusr · 2005-11-02 16:56:06

This will require hydrogen upper stage handling facilities at the new Soyuz pad in Kourou. I wonder how work is proceeding with that.

SpaceNut · 2005-12-06 12:24:34

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10341683/]Europe unlikely to back Russian spaceship
Minister says Kliper proposal found little backing during Berlin meeting[/url]

European governments tentatively have declined to take a role in Russia’s Kliper manned space vehicle project, saying that Europe would not have control over the program and would be limited to being a small industrial contributor, according to European government officials.
Russia has proposed that ESA and Japan join Clipper as an alternative to NASA’s Crew Exploration Vehicle.

SpaceNut · 2005-12-07 09:05:58

This fits in with my initial question for creating this thread.

Russia's Next Spaceship: Alternative to NASA's CEV appears in some ways to be the Russian Federal Space Agency's answer to NASA's Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV).

Much like Nasa's current space vision, which separates astronaut crews and cargo into two launch vehicles that rendezvous in orbit, Russia's Clipper program is also divided into a two-rocket job.

publiusr · 2005-12-07 14:18:27

The Russians have a strange way of doing business. Often times, in Markets, the vendors will tell customers what kinds of meat they can buy. They need to work on cooperation a bit better.

SpaceNut · 2006-05-03 20:50:11

Still thinking that they can do it...
Russia prepares new-generation spacecraft project Kliper

SpaceNut · 2006-12-20 21:13:18

Energia Approves Kliper Plans For 2007

RSC ENERGIA: CONCEPT OF RUSSIAN MANNED SPACE NAVIGATION DEVELOPMENT

GCNRevenger · 2006-12-20 22:59:37

Yeah whatever

The Russians aren't raking in THAT much oil money

RedStreak · 2006-12-21 05:36:25

Yeah whatever
The Russians aren't raking in THAT much oil money

No BUT the budding partnership with China might lead in suprising directions...

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#76 2005-09-27 20:03:16

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#77 2005-09-27 20:07:57

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#78 2005-09-27 20:12:17

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#79 2005-09-27 20:18:10

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#80 2005-09-27 20:31:33

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#81 2005-09-30 08:42:00

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#82 2005-10-07 09:40:59

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#83 2005-10-13 09:26:39

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#84 2005-10-13 10:06:00

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#85 2005-10-13 11:20:04

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#86 2005-10-13 11:50:22

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#87 2005-10-13 12:15:25

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#88 2005-10-13 12:35:08

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#89 2005-10-13 12:47:41

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#90 2005-10-13 14:19:25

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#91 2005-10-18 09:13:26

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#92 2005-11-01 08:33:27

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#93 2005-11-02 16:56:06

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#94 2005-12-06 12:24:34

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#95 2005-12-07 09:05:58

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#96 2005-12-07 14:18:27

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#97 2006-05-03 20:50:11

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#98 2006-12-20 21:13:18

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#99 2006-12-20 22:59:37

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

#100 2006-12-21 05:36:25

Re: Russian Klipper or US CEV - why can we not get it done sooner

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