President Bush - about bush

George H · 2002-12-03 17:36:51

Murder is not a part of war. Death is, but not murder.
We don't kill prisoners of war, why? Becuase to do so is murder.

So murder's not a part of war? Are you serious?

What about the women & children in the VietNam villages, mowed down like grass by U.S. soldier's? Yep, I'm U.S., so to let you know I'm not just U.S. bashing. Defense-less villagers, civilians, killed by armed & trained soldiers......that, buddy, is MURDER.

Then there's Hiroshema & Nagasaki. Look at all the defense-less civilians who lost there lives from those 2 bombs! Your gonna tell me that wasn't murder?? Like hell it wasn't.

There's no murder in war? Lol, lol. Tell me another lie! Sure, and no rape in war either! You are sadly MIS-informed pal.

clark · 2002-12-03 19:15:07

George H, you are misunderstanding, which is understandable given the very fast exchange of posts.

I will not try or would I even consider defending the henious actions that perertrated in the name of "war", sufficit to say, i agree that horrible things are done to defenseless people. That is wrong, just as killing is wrong.

The IDEA of war, the action of WAR, is not murder- however, acts of violence and murder, unrelated to the goals of war do take place.

Death and destruction are neccessary elements in war- is self defense murder? That is in essence what war is- two opposing sides placing people in their name in harms way where they exercise their right to self defense.

Murder is premedited and is not related to the defense or protection of self.

Satisfied?

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-03 21:55:26

Alexander, the missile issue is my point. While we risk nothing in this war except for battlefield casualties, the Israelis have to live in that region every day. Need I remind you that he launched SCUDs at Israel during the Gulf War, and I guarantee he'd do it again with a bigger and badder payload.

As for Rumsfeld, lay off. We have reason to believe that Iraq has a nuclear weapons program that could jeopardize American and Israeli interests in the middle east. That is why we set up the UN weapons inspections (under force, albeit), and that is why we moved troops to the region (to make our force known and keep Saddam out of any funny business. Our findings and intelligence in Iraq are inconclusive at this point, and that is why we are going through these hassles.

And yes, assassinations do effectively cripple a nation's will. Imagine what would happen in this country, with all of its strengths, if Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, C. Rice, Tom Ridge, Daschle, Gephardt, and the Joint-Chiefs of Staff. We would have no power whatsoever. Our law making ability would be crippled, as well as our ability to activate and command an armed force. Now imagine how devistating that would be to a nation who's government and citizens are already on shaky ground... ???

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-03 21:57:31

Imagine what would happen in this country, with all of its strengths, if Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, C. Rice, Tom Ridge, Daschle, Gephardt, and the Joint-Chiefs of Staff. We would have no power whatsoever.

I meant to ask what would happen if all of those leaders were assassinated... sorry

PaganToris · 2002-12-03 22:25:09

Ok CalTech i am a Junor in HS I bench 280, I squat 190 and i wrestle ok know let me ask u the same Q u asked me ok u nerd, yer just some freshmen who needs to be paddled,Trashcaned like all of us Junors and senors do to fresh meat such as yer self ok just becuse i make since and u dont dosnt mean that u have to get all butt hurt and start talking trash bout people such as my self what stae u live in what city what school?
SO THNX U SHOULD SHUT YER NERDY FACE!
just becuse i dont get straight A's in high school just becuse mommmy and daddy dont buy me everything in the world doasnt mean i dont know what im talking bout!
so there u damn NERD!

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-03 22:39:46

Okay, you pompous windbag. I bench 150, squat 260, and I play football/ cross country in the fall, wrestling in the winter (that's where I was all day), and track in the spring. AND I'M A FRESHMAN! So how about you stop the trash talking before I cram your sorry Junior butt into a locker and let my deprived jock friends take turns pleasuring themselves with your hindquarters.

PaganToris · 2002-12-03 22:46:41

HAHAHAH well if u thank u and yer friends can take me on tell them to go for it i GARENTEE U in fact ill bet $200 that u and yer friends cant take me out its kinda hard when 1 person know wrestling,Brizilian ju jitsu,Tae Kwon Do and about well how ever many of yer friends there is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
im dead serious if u and yer friends think u can take me out come to Exeter,Ca and try it i think ill be the ne pleasuring my self with u and yer friends Mouths

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-03 23:48:46

What kind of dork would challenge a COMPLETE STRANGER to come and try to anal rape them? Not only that, but would give this COMPLETE STRANGER their High School AND location.

If I'm correct, this is a page for the discussion of the Bush Administration and the war on terror, not a forum for your school yard trash talk.

Save your kiddie crap and taunting for the youth chat room, and let the rest of us have an intelligent conversation.

AltToWar · 2002-12-04 04:34:44

My daddy could beat up both your daddy's up.

clark · 2002-12-04 09:51:57

I suggest that we refrain from discussing current politcal leaders in the US, and what would happen to us if what you are saying happens.

It is against the law, and things like this are tracked.

However, our government has contingency plans in the advent of a loss of leadership- nothing will stop.

You muist also understand that politcal leaders are usually represenatives of the people they lead- killing leaders is the most undemocratic thing you can do.

Lay off rumsfield? try addressing the valid point- Rumsfield did convene a select committee after the CIA gave him a brief he didn't agree with. It's called white-washing. He got people who would tell him what he wanted to hear, so he could present his views as legitimate based in some kind of "fact".

And Pagan, please stop.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-04 15:14:48

By no means am I entertaining the thought of assassinating a political leader in this country. I was just trying to graphically illustrate how the same tactic would look in our own country.

And while leaders are the chosen representatives of a people, and generally not a good idea to pick off, a dictator is not. And with 10% of the population supporting Saddam, I think it would be a safe bet that his assassination would not send out ripples in the political pool. Plus, his cabinet members are safe bets because Saddam appointed them.

And big deal if Rumsfeld set up his own commitee. Facts are facts, and a civilian will not be able to defy the CIA, the President, the UN, and the international community.

Hey, can you block someone out of a message board? I hate PaganToris harassing people and not adding anything to the conversation (intelligent, at least...). :angry:

AltToWar · 2002-12-04 15:58:28

I for one think Pegan Toris is funny.

If you dont want trolls knocking on your door, dont feed them.

Palomar · 2002-12-04 16:07:05

*Well, since we're on the subject of King George, I thought I'd share some further opinions on Dubya the Wannabe Dictator [does anyone here recall his statement, around the time of the 2000 Elections, that if America were to have a dictator, he'd be the man?]:

He's just *barely* straining at the collar to nail Iraq, isn't he? It's not enough that the UN weapons inspectors are in Iraq; nope. Now it's they [the weapons inspectors] "aren't aggressive enough"; "Saddam's probably hiding something anyway [the burden of proof is on the accuser, and it looks like Bush is just aching NOT to accept any UN WI findings], and we'll never find it"; Turkey is being strong-armed and bribed into allowing U.S. forces onto its soil for the "coming war with Iraq" -- yep, listen to the wording folks; war on Iraq is already unofficially declared. Etc., etc. Big surprise.

I don't know what could possibly STOP Bush from waging war on Iraq at this point. Any little excuse will suffice; any MADE-UP excuse will suffice.

He's bound and determined to make war on Iraq; he gives every indication, IMO, that -nothing- anyone does will placate his belief that we need to smash Iraq and remove Saddam.

I, for one, am ashamed of this blatant, obvious, pathetic BULLYING and war-mongering. And yes, I'm a U.S. citizen, for any newcomers who might wonder.

::steps daintily off soapbox::

--Cindy

P.S.: And no, I don't like Saddam Hussein; he's an asshole...just like Dubya, the greedy OIL man. And who's got the oil...?

AltToWar · 2002-12-04 16:29:13

Why the US needs to invade Iraq RIGHT NOW!
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/corrections.swf

dicktice · 2002-12-04 19:09:58

Try playing "what if" for a moment: What if the U.S. didn't have the military capability it has, to invade another nation (any nation) on its own initiative, with at least short-term impunity...wouldn't the U.N. be the only recourse, and by supporting it wouldn't the U.S. (and the world) be better off in the long run? Just because you have the power to do so shouldn't give you the right to use it willy-nilly. The world deserves and expects better from the "bastion of democracy."

soph · 2002-12-04 19:26:28

in a word, no. the un is a token symbol. if the world relied on the un to solve its problems, nothing would happen. going to the un is more of a show of grace than anything. its a nice political show, but in terms of what it accomplishes, the un cant provide much more support than the us has.

either the countries arent willing or arent able to provide force, or both. the us, and a few other countries, wield power, but other than that, countries are important based on their economic and political stances, which may be completely unrelated to the issue at hand.

soph · 2002-12-04 19:30:14

and who cares how much anybody can bench? i play 3 sports, and i wont even discuss what i can do in a weight room. what does it matter here? this is an intellectual forum, not a locker room.

id be embarrassed if i couldnt stand up for myself without my friends there. we dont need to know about your friend, i dont care if hes jackie chan.

if you cant handle the issue at hand, why bother coming here?

PaganToris · 2002-12-04 23:24:45

welll caltech u started the high school trash talk ok so maybe u should reconsider the high school trash talk ok 2nd of all im just a teen who likes this mars forum and have been a member for quite sme time so just stop the non since and it ends here. its stupid fighting with a little freshmen and im a junor! its fun to paddle etc...... freshmeat in HS ok so
IT ALL ENDS HERE
TRUTH ???

Cobra Commander · 2002-12-05 07:52:39

*Well, since we're on the subject of King George, I thought I'd share some further opinions on Dubya the Wannabe Dictator [does anyone here recall his statement, around the time of the 2000 Elections, that if America were to have a dictator, he'd be the man?]:

Here's what he actually said:
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator..."

In all fairness, I often have this same thought myself.

Josh Cryer · 2002-12-05 08:16:11

Yeah, and days after 9/11, after his popularity went from a pathetic some 40% low to a nice 95% figure, he claims he said he wouldn't allow the budget to go into deficit unless there was a national emergency... joking ?I never thought I'd hit the trifecta.? Of course, he never actually said he would keep the budget balenced except in times of national emergency. Al Gore did.

clark · 2002-12-05 09:20:36

And while leaders are the chosen representatives of a people, and generally not a good idea to pick off, a dictator is not. And with 10% of the population supporting Saddam, I think it would be a safe bet that his assassination would not send out ripples in the political pool. Plus, his cabinet members are safe bets because Saddam appointed them.

Fidel Castro is a dictator, shall we invade Cuba?
Shall we invade every country that is ruled by a "dictator"?
Where does it end?
Shall we kill anyone who WE think is "bad"?

Do you realize how world war 1 started?

It is simply an unwise policy that will come back to haunt us.

Palomar · 2002-12-05 10:18:16

*Well, since we're on the subject of King George, I thought I'd share some further opinions on Dubya the Wannabe Dictator [does anyone here recall his statement, around the time of the 2000 Elections, that if America were to have a dictator, he'd be the man?]:
Here's what he actually said:
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator..."
In all fairness, I often have this same thought myself.

*I suppose lots of people do. But dictatorship and individual freedom/liberty are complete enemies.

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-05 16:18:57

No, we shouldn't invade Cuba because they don't support terrorists and they don't have a nuclear bomb.

And I do know how WWI started, and that won't happen because everyone will know who assassinated Iraqi leaders, they'll just turn a blind eye.

And as for the trash talk? It was you, PaganToris, who came in here telling me to keep my mouth shut for no good reason. You started it, and I'll finish it. I just wanted to talk politics with people I respect and I got slapped in the face by some kid I've never even met before and never want to talk to again. And AltToWar, you just think he's funny because I'm a conseervative. Nice call. ???

I won't be coming back to this message board for a while, so I'll leave you with my closing remarks:

1.) We are sending UN inspectors to Baghdad to prove or disprove our reasonable theories that Iraq has nuclear weapons.

2.) If we find weapons, we'll invade; if we don't, we'll move on to North Korea. Iraq is different from North Korea because of the proximity to China, and their threat to South Korea, Japan, and troops in the DMZ.

3.) The call to the UN by the President was a symbollic deed. The US doesn't need the international community to fight this dicator, but it makes us feel like we've consulted someone on the matter.

4.) I favor the use of assassinations, because they save our troops lives, they minimize Iraqi civilian loses, and they remove only the leaders that we and the Iraqi people hate.

5.) The nuclear weapon was one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. How many times did the possession of 1weapon keep so many wars from starting? How many times did it prevent the US and Russia from going into a war?

6.) The movement of troops into the middle east was done to keep Saddam from interfering with inspectors and making our presence known in the region.

7.) We must disarm Saddam to protect the Israelis from a SCUD nuclear missile, and to protect many western countries from having a nuclear weapons used by terrorists inside of their borders. If Americans don't stop this threat, who will?

8.) The US isn't in this for oil. If any energy benefits come of this, they are just that: a side benefit. We are in this to protect our borders and our interests overseas.

I have been harrassed, threatened, and degraded for holding these beliefs. I was just a 14 year old kid trying to defend my point of view in front of the world, and I think I did a pretty good job. However, I've grown tired of PaganToris' hate mail, and ecrasez_l_infame's assaults on Mr. Bush's personal life. Thank you, Clark, for being, in my mind, the only gentleman in this debate.

You may have gotten rid of me for now, but I will return...

Palomar · 2002-12-05 16:37:08

However, I've grown tired of PaganToris' hate mail, and ecrasez_l_infame's assaults on Mr. Bush's personal life. Thank you, Clark, for being, in my mind, the only gentleman in this debate.
You may have gotten rid of me for now, but I will return...

*What "assaults on Mr. Bush's personal life" have I made, other than pointing out my belief [my opinion, my entitlement] that he's interested in attacking Hussein only because of his own vested oil/financial interests?

Other than this POLITICAL statement, where have I "assaulted" Mr. Bush's personal life? I think I've criticized him a measley 2-3 times at these message boards. Is that too much for you? You've gotten "tired" of a mere 2-3 critical messages written by me about Mr. Bush? Gee, too bad.

Suggestion: You don't have to continue reading my posts; there's no "required reading" here.

I'm not the only U.S. citizen who shares this viewpoint, and it hardly construes an "assault on Mr. Bush's personal life" when he's wanting to send our troops to fight a war [with projected street fighting in cities...very dangerous], and risk losing their lives because he is concerned about his oil interests in the region. Ka-ching.

Check out the writings of Noam Chomsky. The truth hurts.

As for Clark being the "only gentleman" in this issue...well, that's good to know, since I could never be a gentleman. Ahem.

--Cindy

George H · 2002-12-05 16:49:54

No, we shouldn't invade Cuba because they don't support terrorists and they don't have a nuclear bomb.
And I do know how WWI started, and that won't happen because everyone will know who assassinated Iraqi leaders, they'll just turn a blind eye.
And as for the trash talk? It was you, PaganToris, who came in here telling me to keep my mouth shut for no good reason. You started it, and I'll finish it. I just wanted to talk politics with people I respect and I got slapped in the face by some kid I've never even met before and never want to talk to again. And AltToWar, you just think he's funny because I'm a conseervative. Nice call. ???
I won't be coming back to this message board for a while, so I'll leave you with my closing remarks:
1.) We are sending UN inspectors to Baghdad to prove or disprove our reasonable theories that Iraq has nuclear weapons.
2.) If we find weapons, we'll invade; if we don't, we'll move on to North Korea. Iraq is different from North Korea because of the proximity to China, and their threat to South Korea, Japan, and troops in the DMZ.
3.) The call to the UN by the President was a symbollic deed. The US doesn't need the international community to fight this dicator, but it makes us feel like we've consulted someone on the matter.
4.) I favor the use of assassinations, because they save our troops lives, they minimize Iraqi civilian loses, and they remove only the leaders that we and the Iraqi people hate.
5.) The nuclear weapon was one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. How many times did the possession of 1weapon keep so many wars from starting? How many times did it prevent the US and Russia from going into a war?
6.) The movement of troops into the middle east was done to keep Saddam from interfering with inspectors and making our presence known in the region.
7.) We must disarm Saddam to protect the Israelis from a SCUD nuclear missile, and to protect many western countries from having a nuclear weapons used by terrorists inside of their borders. If Americans don't stop this threat, who will?
8.) The US isn't in this for oil. If any energy benefits come of this, they are just that: a side benefit. We are in this to protect our borders and our interests overseas.
I have been harrassed, threatened, and degraded for holding these beliefs. I was just a 14 year old kid trying to defend my point of view in front of the world, and I think I did a pretty good job. However, I've grown tired of PaganToris' hate mail, and ecrasez_l_infame's assaults on Mr. Bush's personal life. Thank you, Clark, for being, in my mind, the only gentleman in this debate.
You may have gotten rid of me for now, but I will return...

Blah blah blah blah. Your an arrogant punk who's not even old enough to vote by about 4 years. Give me a break. For a while there, I thought you were pretty cool & with it for a kid your age, but now it looks like you've gotten hoisted by your own petard. Cindy hasn't been attacking Bush's PERSONAL life, just commenting on his politics (this is America, we have that right, comprehende?), and she's not the only person here with negative things to say about Pres. Bush. Your just as quick & happy to trade insults with Pagan Toris (never mind who started it), etc etc. And SO WHAT if someone has something bad to say about Pres Bush, ever heard of free speech & free expression? I don't like the SOB either. See that? SOB: That's what Pres Bush is in my books. What have you got to say about that CalTech? Ooooo.......I'm hanging onto the edge of my chair just waiting for your reply! Not likely.

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