Steam power on mars?

Dook · 2005-10-15 16:58:42

From what I've read domes on mars would become too hot during the day and too cold at night because the martian carbon dioxide atmosphere does not sufficiently carry the heat away.

So this got me thinking that if we double or even triple layer a dome (a dome inside a dome and both inside a larger dome) and place inward facing mirrors around the outside then the heat absorbed during the day would be substantial.

If we can get it up to the boiling point of water we could have a small steam powered electric generator provide power to a base during the day.

noosfractal · 2005-10-16 05:01:50

I wonder if you wouldn't eventually want something more like this

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/imagesdet … imageID=11

They are supposed to be twice as efficient as solar cells, and they could be larger with Mars' lower gravity. The Sterling engines may be too complicated for in-situ manufacture, but if you're already allowing electric generators, then maybe not.
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Dook · 2005-10-16 05:48:25

All of the equipment for this would have to be brought from the earth.

We're not going to be able to manufacture anything on mars for a very, very long time.

noosfractal · 2005-10-16 18:17:59

We're not going to be able to manufacture anything on mars for a very, very long time.

Oh I don't know. With a 0.3 kWh/kg power budget I can get molten iron, aluminum and titanium (approx. 16%, 8% and 1% of Martian soil). From there it isn't far to sheets, bars, tubes and wires. With half decent machining and polishing I should be able to make parabolic mirrors. I'm not sure about Sterling engines and generators though. They are simple in principle but usually require hi tech to get to high efficiency. It might be worth accepting low efficiency if it means you don't have to ship stuff from Earth. The ability to manufacture and repair on site lowers risk considerably - especially for fundamental stuff like power generation. It may be that you can ship 10%-1% of hi tech stuff from Earth and do 90%-99% of manufacture on site.

Solar cell in-situ manufacture might be easier though. Solar cell "paving" robots have been proposed for the Moon.

quanto042 · 2005-10-16 18:33:14

I agree entirely with noosfractal on this one, manufactur on mars would not be too difficult in even a 5 year timeframe. Not only would it be possible, but ESSENTIAL to survival. The less dependant Mars is on Earth, the better off it will be in the long run.

Dook · 2005-10-16 19:32:23

I think you are both forgetting that we don't even plan on visiting mars for another 30 years.

How are you going to separate the aluminum oxide from the regolith? Same for the other elements. How many missions to deliver your ironworks factory? How many missions to transport your machining and polishing devices?

I wouldn't consider in-situ rocket fuel, oxygen converted from CO2, and water collected from ice or microwave vehicles to be manufacturing.

Oh, and Quanto, mars is now completely independant of the earth.

quanto042 · 2005-10-16 19:41:17

lol, you know what i meant.

noosfractal · 2005-10-16 20:01:45

I think you are both forgetting that we don't even plan on visiting mars for another 30 years.

Even more time for the development of personal manufacturing facilities. I'll be disappointed if I don't have a 3D printer on my desktop within 10 years.

How are you going to separate the aluminum oxide from the regolith? Same for the other elements.

Metallic compounds can be separated from non-metallic with modest electromagnets. Once they melt, the different metals can be separated into layers - additives can help. Otherwise, different acids can be used to dissolve particular metals and later precipitate them.

How many missions to deliver your ironworks factory? How many missions to transport your machining and polishing devices?

If NASA can include a 20 ton drill on the flag and footprint mission, I can have a 20 ton electric smelter and shaping facility for a permanent base. Obviously, it won't process as much as Earth-based facilities - maybe 10 tons per day instead of 10000 - ideally it would come with its own rovot to keep it supplied with raw materials.
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noosfractal · 2005-10-17 04:02:47

Really nice Feb 2005 overview of ISRU for Human Mars Exploration ...

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/apio/pdf/ … s_isru.pdf

Mentions in-situ manufacturing for solar cells, metallic parts, polymer parts and ceramic parts.

Mentioned concerns with low gravity (which I haven't seen elsewhere) are:
- heat pipes: thermal convection coefficient impact
- water/gas separation: if gravity-based separation system
- cyrogenic storage/distribution: increased power demand due to surface tension/flow impacts
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Dook · 2005-10-17 06:45:17

Metallic compounds can be separated from non-metallic with modest electromagnets.

Aluminum is not magnetic.

noosfractal · 2005-10-17 20:25:41

Aluminum is not magnetic.

Apparently, you use hot (550 K) lye to dissolve the alumina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_process

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MarsDog · 2005-10-30 04:46:11

Transportation rocketry has been around for a very long time.
But how do you make a replica, on Mars, of the habitation module ?

Can all the complicated manufacturing processes be scaled down ?
I am thinking of a make anything small factory.

SpaceNut · 2006-05-06 07:33:19

If NASA can include a 20 ton drill on the flag and footprint mission, I can have a 20 ton electric smelter and shaping facility for a permanent base. Obviously, it won't process as much as Earth-based facilities - maybe 10 tons per day instead of 10000 - ideally it would come with its own rovot to keep it supplied with raw materials.
.

While not 20 ton this is what Nasa has for a plan.
NASA'S New Plan Drill is a 60-Watt Time

Geologists, biologists and archaeologists for years have used core samples to look back in time, tunneling through layers of soil and stone to study history. NASA engineers are taking this veteran technique into the future with a design that can bore into other planets using just a light bulb's worth of power.
This month they will drill more than six feet deep into the tundra of the Canadian Arctic with a futuristic tool that is a cross between an oil rig and a portable household drill, making it ideal for space exploration.

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#1 2005-10-15 16:58:42

Re: Steam power on mars?

#2 2005-10-16 05:01:50

Re: Steam power on mars?

#3 2005-10-16 05:48:25

Re: Steam power on mars?

#4 2005-10-16 18:17:59

Re: Steam power on mars?

#5 2005-10-16 18:33:14

Re: Steam power on mars?

#6 2005-10-16 19:32:23

Re: Steam power on mars?

#7 2005-10-16 19:41:17

Re: Steam power on mars?

#8 2005-10-16 20:01:45

Re: Steam power on mars?

#9 2005-10-17 04:02:47

Re: Steam power on mars?

#10 2005-10-17 06:45:17

Re: Steam power on mars?

#11 2005-10-17 20:25:41

Re: Steam power on mars?

#12 2005-10-30 04:46:11

Re: Steam power on mars?

#13 2006-05-06 07:33:19

Re: Steam power on mars?

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