Martian Society and Government

Siegfried · 2005-10-09 17:24:32

I wrote this a few days ago somewhere else. Some of it doesn't apply to this board, because it's obvious many of you like Kim Stanley Robinson.

This is important, is it not? If we are to colonize Mars, we
have to have one. We need a structured society, one that has a
concrete government in which all are equal (I mean this very
literally), and there is no poverty or out of control greed (greed is,
after all, a human nature).
I have been reading up on forms of government, which is a hobby
of mine, and about a year ago, before I even cared about Mars (or
astronomy, for that matter), I found revelation in a very irrelevant
place--a Fantasy writing message board (it was a vBulletin style
board). Anyway, the thread was about choosing a form of government
for your fantasy world, and of the 30 some-odd choices, there was one
that perked up my ears, or whatever you would call the metaphorical
virtual online equivilant. In it was what was called an Isocracy, and
further down, a Pantisocracy. Isocracy worked in a way where all the
members of the society had equal share in social order and
responsibility. Pantisocracy took it a step further: all were equal
members of the govenrment.
Then, as if in answer after all that waiting for some help as how
to operate economy under such an unusual society, I read Red Mars.
Two of the scientists, Vlad and Ursula, were explaining to John Boone
(who had been the first man on Mars) their idea called Eco-economics.
This, in short, was a system where the amount of work determined the
amount of pay, somehow linked so it wasn't just the heirarchial, "paid
by the hour" system again. I'm going to have to re-read it, but
whatever it was talking about, it was brilliant.
Finally, there are Arkday Bogdanov's (from Red Mars as well)
ideas, such as round buildings where all people live and work in equal
sized rooms, and work and recreation are not kept in seperate
locations, allowing god knows what.
Like I said, I have to read those parts again and give a clearer
meaning to these ideas. But in the meantime, anyone with opinions
toward this, please post them here, and try to use your best legible
grammar.

Cobra Commander · 2005-10-10 06:37:14

We need a structured society, one that has a
concrete government in which all are equal (I mean this very
literally), and there is no poverty or out of control greed (greed is,
after all, a human nature).

Ah, that's the New Mars I remember, so full of KSR inspired optimism for a bold new utopian future for all mankind.

Of course it's all fantasy, unworkable and based on flawed assumptions. Equality for example, it just isn't reality. Given that individual people are in fact not equal in any meaningful sense pretending otherwise is a recipe for disaster. The old any two idiots outvote a genius formula.

Sorry to come across so confrontational, it isn't my intent. What you propose actually does have some good points to consider, though I would argue that at present they are buried beneath a veneer of utopian wishful thinking.

Then, as if in answer after all that waiting for some help as how
to operate economy under such an unusual society, I read Red Mars.
Two of the scientists, Vlad and Ursula, were explaining to John Boone
(who had been the first man on Mars) their idea called Eco-economics.
This, in short, was a system where the amount of work determined the
amount of pay, somehow linked so it wasn't just the heirarchial, "paid
by the hour" system again.

This is one of those ideas that sounds good in theory but when it comes down to the gritty details of implementation it falls apart. How does one quantify "work" to determine value. Should a construction worker make more than an architect? What about a factory that produces goods nobody wants? They've put in the same labor after all, why should they not be compensated?

In short, it assumes that there is some inherent value to things. Whether applied to goods or labor it's a false premise. All value is relative, therefore a person's labor is only worth to me what I'm willing to pay to not have to do it myself. To some it's worth more, to others less. It can't have a set value applied to it without throwing the very foundation of trade into shambles.

Siegfried · 2005-10-10 21:45:01

You've got some good points there, Cobra. I have to agree with you on everything you said, though I wish you were wrong . But, you're not. Well, in my civs in Civilization II the citizens like to revolt against me and cause all this civil disorder even with all that I do for them. They just don't understand that my pocketbook isn't bottomless.

Cobra Commander · 2005-10-11 05:51:30

Well, in my civs in Civilization II the citizens like to revolt against me and cause all this civil disorder even with all that I do for them. They just don't understand that my pocketbook isn't bottomless.

Sounds like some people I know.

If any of us had the answers for the perfect system of government we wouldn't be arguing it on a message board.

Martian Republic · 2005-10-11 13:21:27

I will challenge you claim that someone doesn't have a better idea Cobra Commander.

But, whether everybody agree with me that I have a better plan, well that another story all together now isn't it.

Larry,

Cobra Commander · 2005-10-11 13:51:31

I will challenge you claim that someone doesn't have a better idea Cobra Commander.

Better is easy, it's perfect that neither I nor anyone else has yet conceived.

But, whether everybody agree with me that I have a better plan, well that another story all together now isn't it.

Indeed it is, quite another story. Convincing oneself is the easy part.

But I think I've needlessly bashed enough unworkable fantasy for the moment.

Siegfried · 2005-10-11 19:56:54

It can happen, but most likely won't, especially with most of the other kids my age...*shudder* God forbid that rap ever makes it to Mars.

Martian Republic · 2005-10-12 15:26:21

I will challenge you claim that someone doesn't have a better idea Cobra Commander.
Better is easy, it's perfect that neither I nor anyone else has yet conceived.
But, whether everybody agree with me that I have a better plan, well that another story all together now isn't it.
Indeed it is, quite another story. Convincing oneself is the easy part.
But I think I've needlessly bashed enough unworkable fantasy for the moment.

Then I don't have to worry about you bashing my idea then, because it has a track record of working. But then you have rejected the track record too. So I suppose that doesn't make any difference either to you anyway.

So just forget it!

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-08-16 10:53:51

No two things in this world are ever equal, that goes for people as well. The sort of government decided for Mars will be determined by the founders of the Martian society. I think the most we have to agree to here is to decide on how the Martian Constitutional Convention is to be convened by the first settlers on Mars and on what is the minimum number of people on Mars required to hold a Constitional convention and decide on what form of government it is to have.

If I was one of the founders, I would want a system where each citizen gets on vote in choosing the government. Elected representatives should be required to run for reelection in a contested election if they are to retain their posts. The voting should be as inclusive as possible among the people living on Mars. Naturally the Nations participating will have an indirect influence on this process by choosing who to send to Mars. If the United States gets their first with colonists, then naturally I expect the government to resemble the structures of the United States, as it is in the US national interest to export its own form of government. Naturally if the colonists are to form a government there, they have to stay there. If the colonists settle, decide on a constitution and then vacate the planet leaving it unpopulated, then the work is undone and the process must begin over again from scratch. If the US or some other country really wants to set up a government there, it must be prepared to maintain a permanent settlement on Mars. I figure just be fair to other competing countries, the colonists must stay on Mars for the duration of one launch window to the next, if another set of colonists arrive, they can then participate in the constituional convention.

I found Kim Stanley Robinson's third book a little difficult to swallow, it was too preachy and political for me, sort of putting "Capitalism on Trial" so to speak based on its fictional representatives in the form of Transnats in the book waging war on each other. I would avoid socialism and too much regulation on economic activity if at all possible. Freedom should be maximised, and economic decision making should be up to individuals rather than governments. The less regulation and red tape the better. I think property rights should be sacrosanct. If Kim Stanley Robinson's book, all the investors on Earth got screwed. If the investors feel they won't get a return on their investment, private capital won't be forthcoming. Would I be willing to invest in Mars if I felt the Martian Government was going to eschew all debts and nationalize all private property, leaving me with nothing? No, I don't think so. My advice is to beware of Third World Government practises such as exproppriating private property or forcing "sales" to a restricted number and kind of buyers or to the government. All settlers on Mars should be guaranteed a return trip to Earth if it turns out that they can't support themselves economically on Mars, that means the price of a ticket should include the price of a return trip. Martian society in its infancy shouldn't be burdened with too many welfare obligations, all citizens should contribute, at least among the initial colonizers. Criminals should likewise be deported to Earth, so as the spare the Martian government the burden of maintaining a Penal system.

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#1 2005-10-09 17:24:32

Re: Martian Society and Government

#2 2005-10-10 06:37:14

Re: Martian Society and Government

#3 2005-10-10 21:45:01

Re: Martian Society and Government

#4 2005-10-11 05:51:30

Re: Martian Society and Government

#5 2005-10-11 13:21:27

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#6 2005-10-11 13:51:31

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#7 2005-10-11 19:56:54

Re: Martian Society and Government

#8 2005-10-12 15:26:21

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#9 2006-08-16 10:53:51

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