Lets walk before we run - Moon first

Martian Republic · 2005-08-19 16:58:05

Orrrr we could delve heavily into human biochemistry, and find the chemical trigger that orders the body to dump muscle/skelatal mass and just find a way to counter it with pills/patches/etc...
You are looking at the problem wrong MR, the issue is that the body throws away muscle & bone mass that it doesn't use; gravity isn't the root problem.

I'm not saying that we have to build a gravity wheel on the Moon, all I'm saying is, that is only one way to deal 1/6 gravity on the Moon and we know that it would work too. You brought up another idea of how to deal with the 1/6 gravity on the Moon too and there a good chance it would work too. We may choose to use either one or both kinds of ways to deal with this 1/6 gravity on the Moon. I'm not stuck on using either method of dealing with the 1/6 gravity problem on the Moon or it would not bother me if we used both methods to accomplish our goals of colonizing the Moon. Over the next ten to twenty years, we will probably deal 1/6 gravity problem on the Moon by changing crew that on the Moon out like we change ISS crew out every so often. It floats my boat just fine thank you.

I'm not stuck on either idea that I have to have one over the other or that we have to exclude that other idea. There plenty of room for both idea's and they may both have there place in our plan too.

Larry,

John Creighton · 2005-08-19 17:24:12

Orrrr we could delve heavily into human biochemistry, and find the chemical trigger that orders the body to dump muscle/skelatal mass and just find a way to counter it with pills/patches/etc...
You are looking at the problem wrong MR, the issue is that the body throws away muscle & bone mass that it doesn't use; gravity isn't the root problem.
I'm not saying that we have to build a gravity wheel on the Moon, all I'm saying is, that is only one way to deal 1/6 gravity on the Moon and we know that it would work too. You brought up another idea of how to deal with the 1/6 gravity on the Moon too and there a good chance it would work too. We may choose to use either one or both kinds of ways to deal with this 1/6 gravity on the Moon. I'm not stuck on using either method of dealing with the 1/6 gravity problem on the Moon or it would not bother me if we used both methods to accomplish our goals of colonizing the Moon. Over the next ten to twenty years, we will probably deal 1/6 gravity problem on the Moon by changing crew that on the Moon out like we change ISS crew out every so often. It floats my boat just fine thank you.
I'm not stuck on either idea that I have to have one over the other or that we have to exclude that other idea. There plenty of room for both idea's and they may both have there place in our plan too.
Larry,

Say it was linear and if you lived in 1/6 the gravity you would be 1/6th as strong. What would that mean?
It would mean if you could lift 100 pounds on earth then after living a long time on the moon you might only be able to lift 16 pounds. Some well trained people on earth can lift over 300 pounds so if you did the same level of training on the moon you might be able to lift 50 pounds when you come back to earth. Yes that would mean you would be week but I don’t think it would be unrecoverable. Anyway, I am sure if you came back that the mussles could be rebuilt like they were in the matrix by electric stimulation provided you weren’t so old that you needed a pace maker.

Of course if you list 1/6th your strength I guess that would mean you would be bed ridden when you come back because besides the Sherpa I don’t there are too many people that can carry 6 times there weight on there back.

You know we should of done some better research on the people that came back from the ISS. We could of put them in a pool that way the weight of there body wouldn’t be an issue and we could of gave them weights to see how much weight they could lift. Knowing the length of time different people spent on the ISS we could of tried to fit the data to some curve which has an asymptote because I don’t think it is linear and you would waste away to nothing rather at zero g you would still retain some strength. An exponential curve would probably be the best canadate.

Now this would tell us how quickly strength decays if the same amount of exercise is retained and what it decays to at zero gravity. If we had the centrifuge we could do similar tests on rodents at various levels of gravity in insuring they maintain the same level of exercise. We could then for each level of exercise determine the asymptotic percent mussel mass. This would allow us to fit a curve for gravity and asymptotic strength at various levels of exercise. I think we would find that this curve is also exponential. Hmmmm…..Just for fun I am going to propose a curve in my next post. Does anyone know any sources of data to try and fit it to?

Martian Republic · 2005-08-19 20:06:38

John Creighton, that an interesting idea to find out what loss is over time and what kind of rehabilitation that we will have to do with the people that come back from a long term mission of over six month to one year or longer. Unfortunately I have any information to add to your new post, but it would be a worthwhile study though and problem to solve.

So then we would have to ask the question do we want to have to rehabilitate someone or design our space hardware so we don't have that problem?

Of Course this is going to cost more to build the hardware so we don't have to rehabilitate our astronauts and/or run the risk of debilitating them for life. Because we will be putting a lot of stress on there body that possibly could cause them permanent injury or harm. So ultimately it come down to what we have to spend and what we think we need to have to do for though future mission.

Larry,

Stormrage · 2005-08-21 07:02:30

Orrrr we could delve heavily into human biochemistry, and find the chemical trigger that orders the body to dump muscle/skelatal mass and just find a way to counter it with pills/patches/etc...
You are looking at the problem wrong MR, the issue is that the body throws away muscle & bone mass that it doesn't use; gravity isn't the root problem.

orrr we could do research into artifical gravity. Messing with human body chemistry is like a bomb waiting to go off.

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-21 08:05:53

Unless short periods of being spun in a Lunar centrifuge or regular (relativly) heavy workouts solves the muscle/bone mass problem, then long stays on the Moon aren't happening any other way. Might be rough on Mars crews too.

I don't think that you give quite enough credit to the biochemists, who are getting quite good at what they do given how complex the body is. I am certain that with enough effort, it could probobly be done. Drugs are being developed today that cause your bones to grow, and steroids have been available for years to bulk up... Its a matter of how to fix the side-effects, which are unpleasent.

Dragoneye · 2005-08-22 08:17:55

we could always do weighted clothing... so it feels like your moving arround on earth...

then when you go to do stuff on the moon, like mine or what ever, take it off and you will be like 6x stronger than normal being able to move stuff with alot less gravity pulling it down...

chat · 2005-08-27 15:24:54

Dragoneye,

Oh that wont work! no one will make huge quantities of money from heavy underwear.
Its just to simple to be practical and such, and the rust problems haven't been solved yet.

lol

I was going to post the exact same idea until i read you post.

Stormrage · 2005-08-28 12:47:37

I like to ask you guys two question.

1:Do we actually need to go to the moon? The Mars Society faq doesn't think so.

2: Wouldn't we be better of in the long term if NASA puts all of it's budget into research?

chat · 2005-08-28 14:54:48

Stormrage,

It's more of a question of money than destination.

Going to the moon to build a moon base means that mars is pushed back further.

Going directly to mars means everything else is pushed back.

A moon base with industry evolving would open up true space flight for all, or at minimum open up the solar system, Mars being just one destination.

I think everyone would like to see a moon base, but not at any cost.
The same goes for going to Mars.

If we do choose to go directly to mars we might put a moon base 50 or 100 years back, and a mars colony 50 years beyond that.

In my opinion a moon base will seed the need to go to mars and beyond.

Maybe a little of both is the best solution.

John Creighton · 2005-08-28 16:58:45

Stormrage,
It's more of a question of money than destination.
Going to the moon to build a moon base means that mars is pushed back further.
Going directly to mars means everything else is pushed back.
A moon base with industry evolving would open up true space flight for all, or at minimum open up the solar system, Mars being just one destination.
I think everyone would like to see a moon base, but not at any cost.
The same goes for going to Mars.
If we do choose to go directly to mars we might put a moon base 50 or 100 years back, and a mars colony 50 years beyond that.
In my opinion a moon base will seed the need to go to mars and beyond.
Maybe a little of both is the best solution.

By what logic do you throw out those numbers. Anyway if we have the rockets we can go anywhere we want be it the moon, mars or an asteroid. The key is to develop the right technology. The moon and mars are a testing ground and a chance to do some science as a result of the technology produced.

Grypd · 2005-08-28 17:11:11

I like to ask you guys two question.
1:Do we actually need to go to the moon? The Mars Society faq doesn't think so.
2: Wouldn't we be better of in the long term if NASA puts all of it's budget into research?

The Mars society is the Mars society and it is dedicated to Mars. But you must understand that it was formed from the Mars underground and that was a result of the hiatus of the space programme. The first president Bush wanted to get back to space and it was this infamous ninety day report that basically soured that. The Mars society is the result of a wish to do something and go somewhere and Mars is the only world where we can raise another human civilisation.

But though in the Mars society there are people who only want the one destination most people want just to have an increased prescence and capability in space. To do this we need to have infrastructure above the well that is Earth and the capacity for independent operations not dependant on the Earth alone. There are two places where this can be done. The lagrange points or the Moon, the lagrange points will need materials either sent to them from the Moon or from the asteroids. The Moon though already has those materials and even better for operating on, gravity but much weaker and easier to break away from that of the Earth.

The best way to think of the Moon is that of a factory/port area that can power mankind deeper into space and to actually enrich our home planet with the one thing that Earth relies upon. Energy. to quote Dennis Skinner "We go to Mars to bring our civilisation there. We go to the Moon to save our civilisation here."

John Creighton · 2005-08-28 17:29:20

I like to ask you guys two question.
1:Do we actually need to go to the moon? The Mars Society faq doesn't think so.
2: Wouldn't we be better of in the long term if NASA puts all of it's budget into research?
The Mars society is the Mars society and it is dedicated to Mars. But you must understand that it was formed from the Mars underground and that was a result of the hiatus of the space programme. The first president Bush wanted to get back to space and it was this infamous ninety day report that basically soured that. The Mars society is the result of a wish to do something and go somewhere and Mars is the only world where we can raise another human civilisation.
But though in the Mars society there are people who only want the one destination most people want just to have an increased prescence and capability in space. To do this we need to have infrastructure above the well that is Earth and the capacity for independent operations not dependant on the Earth alone. There are two places where this can be done. The lagrange points or the Moon, the lagrange points will need materials either sent to them from the Moon or from the asteroids. The Moon though already has those materials and even better for operating on, gravity but much weaker and easier to break away from that of the Earth.
The best way to think of the Moon is that of a factory/port area that can power mankind deeper into space and to actually enrich our home planet with the one thing that Earth relies upon. Energy. to quote Dennis Skinner "We go to Mars to bring our civilisation there. We go to the Moon to save our civilisation here."

Infrastructure in space will be needed but of course first comes the right infrastructure on earth. This includes the facilities to build the rockets of the future and the tools to help harness the resources above this planet.

SpaceNut · 2005-08-28 20:30:49

As noted in the moon direct thread under human was an article by the bbc with details to a moon concept.

As chat put it other than the dates what we do can influecence the out come for Mars or vise verse. When plans of grandiose base construction of the future, price tags are portaid to scare, they do little for any plans that are long term that start out simple but end eventually with the brass ring item.

If we take to long exploring we loss interest and if we just go for broke we loss as well. We need a plan that is some where in between.

Martian Republic · 2005-08-29 10:34:52

I like to ask you guys two question.
1:Do we actually need to go to the moon? The Mars Society faq doesn't think so.
2: Wouldn't we be better of in the long term if NASA puts all of it's budget into research?

This question has pretty much been answered by the other poster. They have all gone over infrastructure that we need to build and choices of either having mission of discovery or building factories on the Moon. So I won't talk about those things. But, then we need to also decide what to spend on these project and the other financial assets that need to be put into place to do these things. The government will probably have build some key infrastructure to get things going with private enterprise coming behind them with bank loans to build those factories that make colonizing either the Moon or Mars possible. At least that the way it works down here and there no reason to think it going to be working any different in space.

Larry,

chat · 2005-08-30 04:50:07

John Creighton,

Just a guess at the numbers.
It will be getting close to 50 years since man first walked on the moon, and unlikely we will see a permanent moon base before 2019.

Building up a moon base and the infrastructure for a mars walk will be a similar time frame.

If we wait for government agencies to colonize space it will be short steps with long waits between them.

If industry can make money in space it will be a gold rush.

John Creighton · 2005-08-30 18:40:06

John Creighton,
Just a guess at the numbers.
It will be getting close to 50 years since man first walked on the moon, and unlikely we will see a permanent moon base before 2019.
Building up a moon base and the infrastructure for a mars walk will be a similar time frame.
If we wait for government agencies to colonize space it will be short steps with long waits between them.
If industry can make money in space it will be a gold rush.

Yeah, but it may take baby steps to get to the gold rush.

Dragoneye · 2005-08-31 11:39:36

it would be a gold rush, heck, just think of the possibilities.... people would be thinking up of new ways to get to and from space easier, cheaper, faster. research labritories set up on the moon, possibily hospitals for rich cancer patients that want to live out their days in a super clean environment, and so on... there are lots of things to do up there as well as mine the moon....

chat · 2005-08-31 15:52:23

Telescopes built that can see earth like planets at near stars, giant drink coke signs visible from earth, precious metal mining with easy to earth transport, shuttle services, magnetic rail guns, transport, hotels, construction companies, moon based satellite repeaters stations, etc etc.

A big company with vision could own it all now, and be the first to do the same at Mars.

Dragoneye · 2005-09-01 07:33:26

Telescopes built that can see earth like planets at near stars, giant drink coke signs visible from earth, precious metal mining with easy to earth transport, shuttle services, magnetic rail guns, transport, hotels, construction companies, moon based satellite repeaters stations, etc etc.
A big company with vision could own it all now, and be the first to do the same at Mars.

exactly....

you need money to make money...

I am more than willing to help this effort in full force, but like i just said, I dont have the money for it.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-14 13:27:31

Small article on Ocean floor simulates lunar conditions

As part of a programme to return to the moon, NASA is sending six astronauts on an 18-day mission next month to an underwater lab called Aquarius, 20 metres beneath the surface of the ocean near Key Largo, Florida.

18 day mission sounds ok but we need longer ones for mars.

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#26 2005-08-19 16:58:05

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#27 2005-08-19 17:24:12

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#28 2005-08-19 20:06:38

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#29 2005-08-21 07:02:30

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#30 2005-08-21 08:05:53

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#31 2005-08-22 08:17:55

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#32 2005-08-27 15:24:54

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#33 2005-08-28 12:47:37

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#34 2005-08-28 14:54:48

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#35 2005-08-28 16:58:45

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#36 2005-08-28 17:11:11

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#37 2005-08-28 17:29:20

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#38 2005-08-28 20:30:49

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#39 2005-08-29 10:34:52

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#40 2005-08-30 04:50:07

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#41 2005-08-30 18:40:06

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#42 2005-08-31 11:39:36

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#43 2005-08-31 15:52:23

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#44 2005-09-01 07:33:26

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

#45 2005-09-14 13:27:31

Re: Lets walk before we run - Moon first

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