Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

BWhite · 2005-06-01 07:49:11

Kwajelien.

Musk spoke at lunch at ISDC and said that if the Air Force delays making Vandenberg available he will launch from Kwajelien.

Mad Grad Student · 2005-06-01 15:23:23

Musk can't launch till he gets the green light from USAF, which wants to launch a Titan carrying a military sat. After the Titan launch, Musk can then launch.

Provided the Falcon truly is ready to go as soon as the last Titan clears the area. If the Kestrel hasn't been flight qualified yet there's no telling what kinds of pre-flight work still needs to be done before launch, and if it can all be done on time for an August/September launch window. I'm optimistic that we may be very close to the Falcon I's first launch here, but there's still a very good chance that there will be further delays.

clark · 2005-06-03 05:45:43

More on SpaceX and plans for NASA collaboration:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ?pid=17000

NASA and California-based Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) have signed a two-year agreement to research strategies for future human spaceflight systems for exploration missions and commercial space access.
The Space Act Agreement is part of NASA's collaboration with private industry to seek innovations in space flight that may one day lead the way in expanding the frontiers of exploration. The results may benefit both NASA's exploration activities and assist in developing new capabilities for commercial access to space.
Through this partnership, NASA and SpaceX also may identify other technical areas of collaboration that could leverage research and development resources.

It seems to me a lot of people who know a lot about rockets think SpaceX is doing something right, even before Falcon has flown...

Two years covers the expected delivery date of the Falcon V.

BWhite · 2005-06-03 07:32:36

More on SpaceX and plans for NASA collaboration:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ?pid=17000
NASA and California-based Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) have signed a two-year agreement to research strategies for future human spaceflight systems for exploration missions and commercial space access.
The Space Act Agreement is part of NASA's collaboration with private industry to seek innovations in space flight that may one day lead the way in expanding the frontiers of exploration. The results may benefit both NASA's exploration activities and assist in developing new capabilities for commercial access to space.
Through this partnership, NASA and SpaceX also may identify other technical areas of collaboration that could leverage research and development resources.
It seems to me a lot of people who know a lot about rockets think SpaceX is doing something right, even before Falcon has flown...
Two years covers the expected delivery date of the Falcon V.

As far as I can tell, Elon Musk has undertaken to do the hairy-knuckled engineering that will lower costs (and profit margins!) for building rocket engines. Not paradigm shattering breakthroughs, just aggressive cost containment during the execution.

For Musk, making money is a "been there; done that" experience - - can you say "paypal" - - therefore I personally doubt SpaceX is about selling snake oil to NASA or the Air Force.

Musk surely knows how to sell snake oil, only there is much more money to be made elsewhere IF that were his real objective.

Slaying the snake oil salesmen (or rope sellers to use Zubrin's metaphor) at Boeing and Lockmart may be his real goal. You should have seen the Big Aerospace guys squirm at that ISDC lunch when Musk described how he was running his business.

= = =

Edit to add:

Musk NEEDS a destination! As does Gump and t/Space.

Edited By BWhite on 1117805615

clark · 2005-06-03 07:59:27

Musk is like us. He wanted to send people to Mars.

But he realizes you need to start at the begining. :;):

SpaceNut · 2005-06-17 07:19:02

This thread has also been the catch all location of the Falcon darpa Small Launch Vehicle (SLV) program as well.

LOCKHEED MARTIN SUCCESSFULLY TEST FIRES SECOND FALCON SMALL LAUNCH VEHICLE HYBRID MOTOR

Hybrid Propulsion Demonstration

Hybrid propulsion provides the potential for launch vehicles that are lower in cost, more reliable, safer and environmentally compliant. The hybrid system under study is powered by a combination of solid, non-explosive fuel and a liquid oxidizer. Unlike solid rockets currently in use, the hybrid system can be throttled, shut off and restarted during flight.

SpaceNut · 2005-06-30 10:34:16

The launch of the spaceX launch of Falcon 1 has been moved due to conjestion for launch times.
First flight of Falcon 1 rocket moved to 'tropical paradise'

Sure looks like paradise.

SpaceNut · 2005-08-10 05:10:06

SpaceX Lands Two More Falcon-1 Customers and this is for a rocket that has not even launched anything.
The Falcon 1 is slated to debut no earlier than Sept. 30 from SpaceX’s island launch complex at the Kwajalein Atoll.

SpaceX charges $5.9 million plus range fees for a Falcon 1 launch. The vehicle as designed is capable of lofting a half-ton of payload into low Earth orbit.
The Falcon 1 has been in development since mid-2002. Although the rocket is taking longer and costing more to develop than the company expected, Musk said he has spent less than $100 million on the Falcon so far. “Although it gets closer to the $100 million-level every week,” he added.

Mad Grad Student · 2005-08-12 22:47:02

New article from space.com:http://space.com/missionlaunches/050812 … sland.html

It's too early to say that Spacex has succeeded, but their prospects are certainly a great deal brighter than they've ever been for an alt.space company. No major technical obstacles seem to stand in the way of a September or October launch for the Falcon I. If Spacex is able to pull this launch off and a few others on a regular schedule they'll likely be flooded with orders shortly thereafter. Considering that the company has obtained six customers and a $100 million contract from the Air Force before launching a single payload, there could be a highly lucrative market in store for them if they can fullfill their goal of providing cheap, reliable access to LEO.

As the article mentions, however, Spacex is far from being home free. In addition to the fact that the company still has not demonstrated the Falcon I's reliability, they're apparently being asked to leave their present infrastructure at Vandenburg. Unlike the legions of start-up alt.spacers that have either folded completely or faded into obscurity, however, Spacex appears to have real staying power. Their future, while still uncertain, is starting to look brighter overall.

publiusr · 2005-08-25 13:10:08

The Falcon V is certainly a Delta II replacement--and Dnepr is its closest rival.

Comsats continue to grow larger however.

Rxke · 2005-08-26 15:56:40

They'll have to come up with the goods (launch) soon, though...

All good and well to have launchcontracts, but finished sats sitting there waiting, cost money. you can't just let these things sit there in a corner, need constant power/maintenance/control...

And if it keeps getting delayed, some customers might start looking elsewhere.

SpaceX has the menetary clout to weather contract cancellations, even a launchfaliure (or two...) but if they want to actually make money...

clark · 2005-08-28 22:10:58

Well, Musk is quoted as saying three launch failures and they close shop. I don't think SpaceX is in to much trouble in terms of losing contracts (other than maybe Bigelow who has his own time schedule to keep).

Most of the business plan for Falcon is predicated on a market that will want to utilize the low cost for their own launch, instead of piggybacking as a secondary payload for another launch.

Also, if I recall, 3 of the five contracts are military, and it is the military that is holding things up.

I juts hope they get the whole range issue resolves (lockheed is forcing them to relocate their launch pad!).

publiusr · 2005-08-31 15:40:52

I think the Primes are behind the range issues.

PurduesUSAFguy · 2005-09-01 08:57:10

It could very well be that the giants that Space-X might bring down could have a hand in the issue, but the rules reguarding launching one vehicle while a fully stacked vehicle is on another pad at Vandenburg have been around for a long, long time, back when rockets had even odds of blowing up during their ascent they didn't want debris, likley very toxic high explosive debris falling on their next multimillion dollar launcher and it's billion dollar payload.

It should be pointed out that for AltSpace there are options now other then Vandenburg and the Cape, there's the Atoll, the Illeution Islands space port, and now the New Mexico space port, any of which could turn into the altspace equivilent of KSC.

publiusr · 2005-09-01 13:11:41

I must say some of you USAF guys haven't been good friends of space. Jumper did a lot of damage and the way Pete Worden was treated was criminal.

I see the Air Farce is still run by the pilots unions and the fighter mafia.

PurduesUSAFguy · 2005-09-04 15:41:39

I must say some of you USAF guys haven't been good friends of space. Jumper did a lot of damage and the way Pete Worden was treated was criminal.
I see the Air Farce is still run by the pilots unions and the fighter mafia.

Yes, much to my great frustration the Air Force is still very much run by the fighter mafia, but their strangle hold is finally starting to be broken, and for the first time it's looking good that jumpers replacement might be a non-pilot.

Also, the missiles and space feild is very much hamstrung by the fact that what would be prestige postings deal entirely with top secret or SAR systems, so if you can't tell anyone what your doing, or how uber the R and D or procurment program you ran was, then it seriously hurts your chance of joining the ranks of the guys with the stars on their shoulders.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-08 06:14:36

Darpa is still going forward though with plans
USA's Falcon Program for Fast, Small Space Launches Evolving

we seen the drop test but what caught my eye was the Falcon HTV (hypersonic technology vehicles) concept image further down the page.

publiusr · 2005-09-08 14:56:28

But Rockets beat Hypersonics--in that--while they keep their oxygen...they only need pop up through the atmosphere. Hypersonic craft must be more robust--and heavy--and must stay in flaming drag to eat oxygen--and hot oxygen can itself eat through a lot.

A rocket is like a fat man who loses 20 pounds for each step up the ladder he ascends, staging mass as thrust very fast. The hypersonic airframe is like a sprinter--who laughs at the fat man and runs up a gentle ramp--filled with dense flaming jello he has to eat through to build speed.

In the end the fat man--like the turtle--wins the race and leaves mister hot shot far behind. It doesn't keep the fighter jocks from trying:

http://www.xprizenews.org/forum/viewtop … 8&start=15
http://www.xprizenews.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1310
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ares.htm

Make Wade bumped Zubrin's SD HLLV off this site:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/shuttle.htm (try clicking on 'Ares').

For shame!

They don't call the AF Ares by that name any more--and now Falcon means different things too:

Introducing FALCON IX

http://www.spacex.com/press18.php
http://www.spacex.com/falcon_9.php

The AF has to steal folks names now (sounds like Jumper)

BTW --not to brag--but I called him out in 2003...

http://www.justforfun-forum.com/forum/I … 10450.html
http://www.justforfun-forum.com/forum/I … 10451.html

I write more about that below:
http://www.xprizenews.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1356
http://www.xprizenews.org/index.php?p=1059

No sooner did that come out--did I hear about this!
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/10/car.va … index.html

The AF is really in trouble now!

SpaceNut · 2005-09-09 13:17:09

Looks like spacex has taken a page out of Boeing's book.

publiusr · 2005-09-09 14:00:30

Yeah--but this thing has wads of engine-out. But it all depends on Falcon I.

And whether some ULA plant ice-picks it.

GCNRevenger · 2005-09-09 16:44:35

I'd love to know how Elon wants to get his upper stage BACK... heat shielding? Deorbit rockets? Power supplies? Attitude jets/gyros? Parachute heaters? Recovery CEP?

I think the claim that the upper stage will be reuseable is a pretty tall order, and I wonder if Elon is making a claim that he can't pull off... and being that he is the only AltSpacer' with a prayer of sucess, wild claims are very bad for business.

Ad Astra · 2005-09-10 01:24:15

GCN Revenger:
Jon Goff has the scoop on the Falcon upper-stage recovery method, plus some analysis on how it could work.

All:
As far as previous posts about the DARPA FALCON effort, I feel that I should clear up some misconceptions. The DARPA and SpaceX efforts began around the same time, so neither can be accused of ripping the name off the other. In DARPA's case, "FALCON" is a recent addition to the military tradition of forced acronyms.

The FALCON vehicle pictured in a recent post by SpaceNut is not a near-term vehicle, but an air-breather that will hopefully be the final result of FALCON's spiral development. In the near term, FALCON demonstrators will be launched by rockets, and the Falcon I is a contender for FALCON launches.

Rxke · 2005-09-10 04:13:00

wild claims are very bad for business.

The Windows marketing department doesn't think so! (couldn't resist)

Does Musk claim it will be reusable in the first incarnation?

GCNRevenger · 2005-09-10 08:00:45

Use the engine nozzles as a shockwave deflector? Ummmm I don't think so, even if they were made of RCC they would probobly burn off. And what happens if even a small part of the hot gasses actually come in contact with the rest of the vehicle? Or get funneled into the metal rocket nozzles, and burn off the nice kevlar blast armor and composite interstage... You get the picture. Blowing a little leftover LOX through them is a like trying to drain a pond with a thimble too. No no this is a terrible idea and it will never work.

There are actually three different "Falcon" programs, two for the USAF and one for Elon Musk:

-FALCON suborbital space bomber program
-FALCON low-cost responsive military satelite launcher
-FALCON series of rockets from SpaceX

PurduesUSAFguy · 2005-09-10 14:04:51

FALCON = Force Application Launched from the CONtinental US.

lol, I know, it's definetly a stretch as far as acronyms go.

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#101 2005-06-01 07:49:11

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#102 2005-06-01 15:23:23

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#103 2005-06-03 05:45:43

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#104 2005-06-03 07:32:36

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#105 2005-06-03 07:59:27

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#106 2005-06-17 07:19:02

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#107 2005-06-30 10:34:16

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#108 2005-08-10 05:10:06

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#109 2005-08-12 22:47:02

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#110 2005-08-25 13:10:08

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#111 2005-08-26 15:56:40

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#112 2005-08-28 22:10:58

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#113 2005-08-31 15:40:52

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#114 2005-09-01 08:57:10

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#115 2005-09-01 13:11:41

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

#116 2005-09-04 15:41:39

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#117 2005-09-08 06:14:36

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#118 2005-09-08 14:56:28

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#119 2005-09-09 13:17:09

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#120 2005-09-09 14:00:30

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#121 2005-09-09 16:44:35

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#122 2005-09-10 01:24:15

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#123 2005-09-10 04:13:00

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#124 2005-09-10 08:00:45

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#125 2005-09-10 14:04:51

Re: Falcon 1 & Falcon 9

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