Space Advocacy Fragmentation

Palomar · 2005-08-19 11:55:55

*Have been mulling thoughts over since posting in Robert's new thread. His thread is very specific and I don't wish to risk taking it off topic, so am creating this one to address some related issues.

Space advocacy is a mess, IMO. As I mentioned in Robert's thread, the average space advocate seems unappreciated. How many "VIPs" bother to rub shoulders with "peons"? We've even seen a few Apollo astronauts emphasizing the need for more attention to social/environmental concerns over returning to space (beyond LEO). Lots of people are for "Moon First." This board has 1180 registered members...where are they? We have consistent and probably long-term lurkers or "Guests"; why aren't they registering and interacting? A lot of people have become enthused about private concerns such as SpaceShipOne, space hotels and tourism (Mars again on the backburner).

Everyone has their reasons and of course are entitled to them.

But it is discouraging when even the "rank and file" of space advocacy is so fragmented. I thought more people would be serious about a manned mission to Mars than this.

--Cindy

flashgordon · 2005-08-19 12:11:20

people are not interested in questioning and facing facts - just say whatever their social group says; since specialization of jobs due to agriculture, or civilization ten thousand years ago arose, we have lots of different social groups(some bigger than others); so, we are fragmented!

SpaceNut · 2005-08-19 13:26:22

Lots of different groups but those that are for space are also splintered into the Earth bond protect us, lets not go beyound LEO, while a few of us want to be the ones to say lets go anywhere in that it does not matter the destination. I suppose that I am in the latter so long as we can all go at an affordabale rate within the reach of the middle classes. But then of course we have the one group that I left out which is, they see no value in the amount of money for the returns for even being space fairing.

I am here and this is now all that I can afford thou I dream of so much more.

Dragoneye · 2005-08-19 14:05:44

I'm all for going to mars, but honestly i think its impractical to go at the current time, we just dont have the money, technology, and intrest in getting to that point from the rest of the world, or even just the rest of the US as it is...

we need to get a break through with technology to get us there in a record time, or invent something that will want people to be like "oh hey look at that, we can start traveling to other planets in 1/2 the time, i dont mind investing a few bucks to get something like this going."

its something thats outstanding that people will want to put intrest into... no one wants to invest money in something thats the same stuff we have been doing for years, but just in a new place...

we need to get others excited about things. once we do that, then the money comes, and along with money comes more research, and intelegent decision making.

Dook · 2005-08-20 10:34:49

Fragmented? Yeah, I really think it comes down to whats best and what's wanted. An example is that people want to save Hubble even though we can build a new, better one that will last longer and be placed in a more stable orbit for less cost.

Space exploration is a slow business. It takes years to build, launch, and finally get results, if it even succeeds. Also there really is little vision in our space exploration programs. Sure our probes are discovering new things about mars, the sun, and the universe but they are really not that different than the things we've been doing for the last 30 years. The VSE is severely lacking any true, new, vision. Mars Direct came out in the 90's.

About the membership, really it's tough to stay here for more over a year because you see the same arguments over and over again.

Stormrage · 2005-08-22 04:35:41

Run Defragmenter.

SpaceNut · 2005-08-22 05:36:33

Ya I understand what Dook is driving at and I have seen it as well within the news coming out recently from each of the Nasa agency sites. The non cooperation or of secrecy to not allowing competition for projects.

publiusr · 2005-08-25 13:07:42

Robert makes good sense.

We have become our own worst enemy--and the anti-space people like Matt Drudge and other love it.

it's time to support Mike Griffin and quit backbiting him.

John Creighton · 2005-08-25 13:28:04

Robert makes good sense.
We have become our own worst enemy--and the anti-space people like Matt Drudge and other love it.
it's time to support Mike Griffin and quit backbiting him.

Who is not supporting him? As far as I can tell everyone in this board is supporting him? Also there is a difference between supporting someone and mindlessly agreeing with everything they say. It is the discussion that helps us further evaluate and improve our ideas. Stop trying to dogmatise space, which is part of science and engineering. Dogma is an impediment to advancement.

publiusr · 2005-08-25 13:38:06

His is a heavy-lift advocate--and heavy-lift doesn't seem to have many friends--due to anti-heavy lift dogma that needs to stop.

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-25 14:53:18

WTH again... it seems to me that just about all space advocates are at least tollerant of heavy lift notions, and the vast majority are supportive. About the only people that aren't are the hardcore space elevator and NASA-hater people.

publiusr · 2005-08-26 14:24:38

The space elevator people will be insufferable with the recent nano-sheet find.

Fledi · 2005-08-26 19:49:30

About the only people that aren't are the hardcore space elevator and NASA-hater people.

??? Heavy lift would help a lot to initially set up a space elevator, maybe the will be no other way to get the first ribbon up without in orbit construction.

John Creighton · 2005-08-26 20:09:58

About the only people that aren't are the hardcore space elevator and NASA-hater people.
??? Heavy lift would help a lot to initially set up a space elevator, maybe the will be no other way to get the first ribbon up without in orbit construction.

So then maybe the fragmentation is highly execrated and mostly used by as a tool for people who have run out of arguments or which to willfully ignore facts.

SpaceNut · 2005-08-29 09:42:05

Well here is an effort to achieve a common goal even if it is only a space flag of humanity.

who knows but it is a start...

Palomar · 2005-08-29 12:23:46

*The space flag of humanity?? I don't recall having seen it before. Where's the eyebrow up and down emoticon?

It's not psychedelic enough. The concept is nice (anyone care to explain the reasoning behind the patterning? And yes, it'll get criticized by others for red-white-blue).

Make it more psychedelic. Then people will want to take space trips. Dig it? 8)

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-08-29 12:48:05

Ask and you shall recieve. Well almost.
http://www.spaceflag.com/

Symbolism
Against the background of space, the central blue circle represents the Earth, and the other six circles represent colonies. Together, the seven circles form the flower-like Seed of Life symbol, representing life from its beginnings on Earth to its growth to space. Four white stars represent life’s ultimate destination.

Wish there was more to it but alas there is not...

John Creighton · 2005-08-29 13:37:40

Ask and you shall recieve. Well almost.
http://www.spaceflag.com/
Symbolism
Against the background of space, the central blue circle represents the Earth, and the other six circles represent colonies. Together, the seven circles form the flower-like Seed of Life symbol, representing life from its beginnings on Earth to its growth to space. Four white stars represent life’s ultimate destination.
Wish there was more to it but alas there is not...

I think it is ugly.

John Creighton · 2005-08-29 13:40:07

Ask and you shall recieve. Well almost.
http://www.spaceflag.com/
Symbolism
Against the background of space, the central blue circle represents the Earth, and the other six circles represent colonies. Together, the seven circles form the flower-like Seed of Life symbol, representing life from its beginnings on Earth to its growth to space. Four white stars represent life’s ultimate destination.
Wish there was more to it but alas there is not...
I think it is ugly.

Could turn the center part into a pot leaf and then it would almost look the same, and kind of be something like cindy sugests.

John Creighton · 2005-08-29 13:42:52

The background should be black. The stars should be hellow. Each of the outer circles should be a different color representing a different planet. Since there are not 6 inner planets, once circle could represent the moon and once circle could represent the asteroids.

John Creighton · 2005-08-29 13:46:00

The center circle could also be yellow representing the sun. Mars red, earth blue, moon white, venus purple, mecury silver, asteroids brown.

Or should the earth be green and venus be blue?

RobertDyck · 2005-08-29 14:29:47

Only Cindy mentioned the red-white-blue colour scheme. It's too American; if you want something American then use Old Glory. NASA's colours are the same as the American flag because it's an American federal agency. If the goal of a space flag is to unify the space community, it must represent other countries.

Now here I want to emphasize you not only picked red-white-blue in exactly that order for the circles, you added white stars on a blue background and the points of the stars have the same angle as the 5 point stars on Old Glory. This is way too much American symbolism.

The Olympic flag has 5 circles, each with a different colour representing the 5 continents. There are 7 continents on Earth, but Antarctica doesn't have any countries and for some reason they chose to represent the Americas with a single ring. Colours were chosen because at least one of the 6 colours (including white background) is found in every country in the world. We should use this kind of symbolism, including everyone rather than just one country. I rather like John's suggestions, although placing Earth at the centre instead of the Sun does symbolize humanity (and life) expanding from this planet.

My initial idea from John's question about colouring for Venus is to use a photograph showing cloud striations. Asteroids could be represented by a cluster of a few rough shaped objects, or a single rough shaped asteroid. However the rules of heraldry govern flag design. They say the design should be easily recognised from a distance, so simple shapes and always put a light colour on dark, or dark on light; never dark on dark or light on light. English heraldry goes further to say "metal" on "tincture" or vice versa, where "metal" means silver represented by white, or gold represented by yellow. Never actually use metallic silver or gold, they're too reflective on a shield in bright sunlight and can't be sewn into a cloth flag. Every colour other than white or yellow is treated as a tint. German heraldry does permit red on black because they're sufficiently different. Ok, so I studied heraldry a bit when I was in a medieval recreation society, I had to come up with my own design to represent me so I had to learn how to do it. This helps design the space flag, guidelines to make it practical. A photo-realistic Venus is right out. Colours should be light-on-dark unless they're diametrically opposed colours: blue on yellow, green on magenta, red on cyan. Can the red-on-blue colours be readily be distinguished from a distance or does it become a hazy blur?

I also like the idea of including the red-green-blue of the Mars flag.

Palomar · 2005-08-29 14:53:03

*Black (for the blackness of space crossed), bluish green (coming from Earth) and red (for Mars of course).

Black, blue-green, red: That'd be my vote for Mars flag colors.

(John C: A marijuana leaf?? I don't smoke the stuff, in case you're wondering).

--Cindy

P.S.: Got Mars on the brain. As for an overall "humanity/space" flag...some ideas here are good. Will give it more thought.

BWhite · 2005-08-29 15:37:30

Maybe Saffron and green should be included along with red and blue.

Russia is red, white and blue also - - merely different shades of red and blue.

= = =

Look, it can wave:

= = =

Flag images will be deleted in a little while to avoid further stealing IndianChild's bandwidth.

John Creighton · 2005-08-29 15:45:57

Speaking of visibility. How about a flag that glows. Wouldn't that be spooky

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#1 2005-08-19 11:55:55

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#2 2005-08-19 12:11:20

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#3 2005-08-19 13:26:22

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#4 2005-08-19 14:05:44

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#5 2005-08-20 10:34:49

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#6 2005-08-22 04:35:41

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#7 2005-08-22 05:36:33

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#8 2005-08-25 13:07:42

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#9 2005-08-25 13:28:04

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#10 2005-08-25 13:38:06

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#11 2005-08-25 14:53:18

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#12 2005-08-26 14:24:38

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#13 2005-08-26 19:49:30

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#14 2005-08-26 20:09:58

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#15 2005-08-29 09:42:05

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#16 2005-08-29 12:23:46

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#17 2005-08-29 12:48:05

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#18 2005-08-29 13:37:40

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#19 2005-08-29 13:40:07

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#20 2005-08-29 13:42:52

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#21 2005-08-29 13:46:00

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#22 2005-08-29 14:29:47

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#23 2005-08-29 14:53:03

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#24 2005-08-29 15:37:30

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

#25 2005-08-29 15:45:57

Re: Space Advocacy Fragmentation

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