Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

Palomar · 2002-11-27 09:17:29

I'm telling anyone who might be reading this who is trapped in a negative office situation, such as Cindy described in her posts above...do yourself a favor and get out...immediately. If you're unable to do that, then fight back - without mercy.
I was once highly *ostracized* by a female supervisor...and boy, when you're on someone's bad side like that..it ain't a whole lotta fun ??? It was a terrible experience, to say the least, and the resulting trauma...shoot I'm still getting over it, and it's been years now. And the truth of the matter, one of my life goals is to write a book someday about *workplace abuse*, as I think it's truly a serious problem that really needs to be addressed...nobody should have to go through what I went through. It's people being inhumane to other people, and there is no excuse for that kind of behavior at ALL.
I urge anyone who is being treated unfairly, picked on, insulted, harrassed...you have fight back, and fight back hard...sue their butts off, or whatever you have to do...otherwise it will get worse and worse. Believe me...I've been there.
B

*Regarding your plans to write a book on workplace abuse, I certainly encourage you to do this. There certainly is a lot of it out there.

Regarding unwarranted unfair/hostile treatment, what it all boils down to is this: If I respond/fight back, they are going to be angry with me. If I don't respond/fight back, I'll be angry with myself, and will have betrayed myself and my sense of ethics. And of course, I'm -not- going to wind up the angry party...they are.

--Cindy

P.S.: Regarding abuse in the workplace, a friend of my husband's, named Tony, felt he had to leave the Albertson's store he worked at as a meat cutter for another Albertson's across town. A woman named Barbara was harrassing him, accusing him of trying to grope and fondle her [she wishes; she's as ugly as she is a lying troublemaker], of trying to run her off the road with his truck, on and on. The supervisors of the store, which Tony had worked at for -years- and he is a good worker, were too cowardly to confront this woman, stop and/or fire her; she will scream for her lawyers whenever anyone attempts to react to HER abusive and hostile actions [you're just supposed to sit back and take it, apparently]. My husband and I had the misfortune of dealing with her a few years ago [car repair job]; when she tried to cheat my husband out of payment she then added insult to injury by putting a legal restraining order on him when he tried to collect, called the house repeatedly one day harrassing me, and had the gall to call the cops on us to "warn us" to "quit harrassing" HER! She was the one harrassing us, not the other way around, and I went down to the police station and filed a formal complaint against her. That stopped the music. But anyway, she's a major asshole...and she was giving Tony such hell that he felt compelled to leave. And all the while, his cowardly piss-poor supervisors do nothing to stop Barbara...because she'll scream for her lawyers and the cops [as if Albertson's Corporation doesn't have more money that she's got, duh].

So how do we explain assholes in the workplace getting by with murder? The people in authority watching this going on and being too cowardly to do anything about it? When they'd rather keep this woman on their premises as an employee [and a poor one at that], and allow a good and dependable worker to leave? How stupid is that?! She'll just find somebody else to pick on, harrass, threaten, etc. This woman needs to be removed from the workplace, period.

A lot of workplace abuse happens because people in positions of authority *allow* it to occur and continue...when they're not the culprits creating the problems.

Oh well, really off topic now.

--Cindy

dicktice · 2002-11-27 14:44:56

Regarding bone mass and calcium loss: Is 1-gee optimum just because life evolved on Earth? What would have happened if it had been 2-gees? Or 1/2-gee? Now we are faced with 1/3-gee (Mars) and 1/6-gee (Moon). Why wouldn't each of these gravities have optimums, as well. Admittedly, 0-gee hardly need upright strength, so optimum would be detrimental under accelerations not submerged in liquid. But, shouldn't we investigate the positive effect(s) of diminished gravities on bone mass and calcium loss, not to speak of heart and blood circulation consequences...we may find life not so risky (from falling) and longevity increased (less work) as a consequence. I for one won't write-off less than 1-gee habitat undesireability until some data along these lines becomes available....

AltToWar · 2002-11-27 14:59:51

Gravity does a lot of bad things to the human body. There is a good chance that lower gravity might have medical benefits.

AltToWar · 2002-11-27 15:01:50

to continue the discussion of women on mars, and the effects of gravity...

Mars chicks grow up to be hotter than earth chicks?

soph · 2002-12-04 14:29:44

doubtful. likely, theyd be much taller. for me, thats a drawback...

Byron · 2002-12-04 15:32:27

Not me...I happen to like tall women...

My guess about the effects of Martian gee is that people would grow taller, but not that much more, perhaps a 10% increase in height..? Your guess is good as mine, at least until they get that biosatellite experiment going in a couple of years...which should answer a LOT of questions about the effect of .38 gee.

B

Bill White · 2002-12-04 15:57:47

The real issue is pregnancy on Mars. Days at 24 hours 5minutes, 0.38 g, restrictive (vegan) food, etc. What about hormonal signals shifted well above or below 9 months gestation, forbidding any normal delivery.
what about Embryonic Neural tube closure / Brain growth at 0.38g ? Will the fetal brain be overgrowth, undergrowth, No one knows.
For 500 millions years, the vertebrate body has adapted his fetal growth at a 1g gravity, I doubt the shift at 0.38 g will be without concequences. Doctors and Molecular Biologists, men or women, will be required to fix the expected problems: high rate of spontaneous abortion during pregnancy, grossly developmentaly abnormal babbies (those who survive), growth and mental retardation after birth.
For example, I completely disagree that because of low gravity, the martian children will be necesseraly tall (as in KSR trilogy or the recent poem sent by Ms Zubrin: " they grow taller and taller").
Body growth is a function of hormonal signal, food income (check the size of nordic population in the starving middle age: were they all 6 feet tall giants ?). It might well be that under low gravity and no McDonalds available, the children hormonal system won't be stimulated, won't produce enough growth hormone like for "small size people" to speak politically correct. Being tall in rough condition is a disadvantage, you cannot sustain your metabolism by a higher food income, you cannot sustain the calcium in your vertebrae and bones, you just break them. That's just an example that nothing is obvious on Mars except that everything will be difficult.

This is why TransLife is so important.

Otherwise, pregnant women may be confined to oversized hotel rooms racing about inclined race tracks to generate artificial one (1) gee environments.

AltToWar · 2002-12-05 04:47:47

just be sure to pack these trains with pickles and ice cream.

Phobos · 2002-12-05 19:53:02

just be sure to pack these trains with pickles and ice cream.

LOL! What is it about pickles? Last summer I went to Magic Mountain with some friends, one of whom was pregnant, and she absolutely would not pass a vendor if they were selling pickles!

Palomar · 2002-12-05 20:14:46

just be sure to pack these trains with pickles and ice cream.
LOL! What is it about pickles? Last summer I went to Magic Mountain with some friends, one of whom was pregnant, and she absolutely would not pass a vendor if they were selling pickles!

*Hmmmm. When I was pregnant, I craved fresh fruit; never pickles. I don't like pickles anyway...well, except for "bread and butter" pickles, you know -- the sweet type served as a side dish to Sunday dinner

I don't know about pickles, but women on Mars will definitely need plenty of calcium and vitamin D to help the baby's bones develop properly, in addition to maintaining their own bone health -- before, especially during, and even after pregnancy.

Cravings are crazy. They just hit you, and you've got to have whatever food you're craving ::NOW:: -- it's a total animal passion-like thing that has to be satisfied immediately. That's why I said elsewhere, in a different thread, that I feel for the earliest pregnant settlers...imagine one of those ladies craving fresh fruit like I did, and having only dehydrated fruit.

But imagine being the first woman to give birth on Mars! That'd be a great distinction!

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-12-06 23:19:23

Cravings are crazy. They just hit you, and you've got to have whatever food you're craving ::NOW:: -- it's a total animal passion-like thing that has to be satisfied immediately. That's why I said elsewhere, in a different thread, that I feel for the earliest pregnant settlers...imagine one of those ladies craving fresh fruit like I did, and having only dehydrated fruit.

Do you start to feel violent if you can't satiate your craving? I think the people on the ship would crave things in general but it seems pregnant women might go ballistic if they can't get what they want. Like my friend who couldn't pass up a pickle. There are cravings and then there are cravings like their addicted to drugs or something.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-12-07 02:35:21

Nahh! .. pickles didn't do it for my wife, either.

But fizzy lemon drinks ...? Ahhh, they sure hit the spot!!

Palomar · 2002-12-07 09:29:42

Cravings are crazy. They just hit you, and you've got to have whatever food you're craving ::NOW:: -- it's a total animal passion-like thing that has to be satisfied immediately. That's why I said elsewhere, in a different thread, that I feel for the earliest pregnant settlers...imagine one of those ladies craving fresh fruit like I did, and having only dehydrated fruit.
Do you start to feel violent if you can't satiate your craving?

*Well, I was fortunate to have a lot of fruit in the house at the time, so I wasn't deprived. Every craving I had with pregnancy could be satiated immediately, so I'm not sure if I would've gotten violent or not...

One of my favorite episodes of "I Love Lucy" is when she's pregnant, Ricky has to go out in the middle of the night and get her what she's been craving -- pistachio ice cream with hot fudge sauce...and a big pile of sardines on top! And she actually eats it, too, on camera. Yuck!!

--Cindy

P.S.: Morning sickness is more fun to talk about. Want to talk about it? Suddenly feeling extremely faint and dizzy, having to literally CRAWL to the bathroom to throw up...shall I go on??

Phobos · 2002-12-07 14:48:53

P.S.: Morning sickness is more fun to talk about. Want to talk about it? Suddenly feeling extremely faint and dizzy, having to literally CRAWL to the bathroom to throw up...shall I go on??

Getting pregnant would scare the hell out of me. It's always been something of a mystery to me why so many women actually try to get pregnant! Maybe I'm just a wimp.

Palomar · 2002-12-07 16:21:44

P.S.: Morning sickness is more fun to talk about. Want to talk about it? Suddenly feeling extremely faint and dizzy, having to literally CRAWL to the bathroom to throw up...shall I go on??
Getting pregnant would scare the hell out of me. It's always been something of a mystery to me why so many women actually try to get pregnant! Maybe I'm just a wimp.

*Well...not all pregnancies -are- planned...oops. The thought of labor and delivery does scare me. With my first pregnancy, I had just found out I was pregnant [this was some time ago], and had to hand deliver pathology reports I'd typed to the doctors' boxes in the doctors' lounge of the hospital...which happened to abutt onto the Labory & Delivery Dept. of the hospital. While I was distributing the copies of reports, a male housekeeper came in to straighten out the room -- and just a few seconds later a woman in Labor & Delivery started shrieking and crying. My hands started trembling really bad, the housekeeper looked nervous -- I hurried up to finish my task and got the hell out of there, with the housekeeper making a bee-line for the door right behind me. It was funny. Unfortunately, I had a miscarriage with that pregnancy, so no trip to L & D. However, miscarriages are extremely painful as well, with high fevers and delirium...it's very hard on a woman. They'd better make preparations for treating miscarriages on Mars [ability to perform dilation and curettage in the medical facility of the settlement].

Hopefully the next baby will come along just fine.

--Cindy

Echus_Chasma · 2002-12-15 15:06:06

Yo everybody, this is my first post.

I personally don't like the idea of sending such a small amount of crew up to Mars, because, what if a couple of them are doing whatever they will be doing up there and there is an accident and a few of them are killed. That would be devastating,
it would kill of a large proportion of the crew and the psychological effects on the crew that survived would be massive.

I dunno if thats already been stated cos I could'nt be bothered to read the rest of the thread before posting.

Phobos · 2002-12-15 23:10:30

I personally don't like the idea of sending such a small amount of crew up to Mars, because, what if a couple of them are doing whatever they will be doing up there and there is an accident and a few of them are killed. That would be devastating,
it would kill of a large proportion of the crew and the psychological effects on the crew that survived would be massive.

Mark S thinks a crew of four is too small for social reasons. It does seem like a small crew for such a long mission and there could be dangers if members of the crew have critical specialities or skills that the other members don't have or aren't good at. Zubrin wants to split the crew up by having two technicians who would basically keep the equipment ship shape among other necessary duties and then have scientists who do the field work. I'd support sending more people.

RobS · 2003-04-30 17:42:04

For the first flight to Mars, it might make sense to send two vehicles, each able to fly four people, but with three on board each. If designed right, either vehicle could serve to fly six home, thereby improving the safety margin. The equipment would still be untested or nearly so, hence the value of this approach. But you'd almost double the costs.

-- RobS

Runnerbrax · 2003-08-08 08:19:35

What i don' get is why everyone thinks that this mission has to be sent straight from earth? Couldn't we assemble the ship like a puzzle here on earth and on the routine space missions, send it up peice by peice to put it together ? I think that is one way to lower the cost. I saw we send seven people on one ship. That way if a "MExican standoff" happens between the crew members it will be uneven there fore making it unbalanced. Ya'll know what I'm sayin ?

prometheusunbound · 2003-08-08 14:35:23

What about a crew of 20-30? There needs to be more than 8 people at least as small groups can quickly get very confrontational. I know this from experience as a city council man at BBS. There needs to be more varity of people.

RobertDyck · 2003-08-09 19:37:54

What i don' get is why everyone thinks that this mission has to be sent straight from earth? Couldn't we assemble the ship like a puzzle here on earth and on the routine space missions, send it up peice by peice to put it together ? I think that is one way to lower the cost. I saw we send seven people on one ship. That way if a "MExican standoff" happens between the crew members it will be uneven there fore making it unbalanced. Ya'll know what I'm sayin ?

It was Robert Zubrin who advocated a spacecraft sent straight from Earth. He believed on-orbit assembly is extremely risky. Personally, I think orbital rendezvous was developed by Gemini, perfected by Apollo, and used routinely on Skylab, Mir, and now the ISS. On-orbit assembly was also used to build Mir and the ISS. You could argue all you want whether it was a better decision to develop Ares rather than assemble a space station using Space Shuttle; the bottom line is that the modular space station is built now. That means we do have the technology to assemble a large craft in Low Earth Orbit, we don't have a heavy lift launch vehicle. Robert Zubrin also argued for sending a manned mission to Mars instead of building a space station; well, we have the space station now. Again, argue all you want over which would have made more sense, the decision has been made and we have the ISS now.

The idea of assembling a spacecraft in orbit using existing launch vehicles has been discussed before. You can check out the discussion started by RobS under "Human missions", the thread name is "Mars 24 project". He so named it based on launch capacity of 24 tonnes each. Or my thread titled "Mars Orbit Rendezvous", under the same heading. You can read Robert Stockman's novel "Mars Frontier: Chapter 1", it's currently on the NewMars home page.

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-10 00:51:34

I never really liked the idea of building something in orbit, unless it was on a large mass, like the moon or an asteroid. The reason is that I find that shipping parts would be really prohibitive resource-wise, and in the end we wind up doing more work the less intelligent way.

I like smart concepts, like dropping robots on Luna which can build a base for us; things like that.

I say if we're going to assemble in orbit (and I definitely think we should; Earth's gravity is just too expensive currently), do it on the moon and do it right.

alokmohan · 2003-09-14 05:25:08

I have not read Zubrins book.My mere reading about his ideas I am fascinated.

Spider-Man · 2003-09-14 08:25:42

I know a lot of this stuff is weeks old, but I don't think it ever hurts to rehash Zubrin's stuff.

What i don' get is why everyone thinks that this mission has to be sent straight from earth? Couldn't we assemble the ship like a puzzle here on earth and on the routine space missions, send it up peice by peice to put it together ? I think that is one way to lower the cost. I saw we send seven people on one ship. That way if a "MExican standoff" happens between the crew members it will be uneven there fore making it unbalanced. Ya'll know what I'm sayin ?

Oh heavens no! That's the exact opposite of trying to make something cheeper or better or less complex. First of all, trying to build an enormous spaceship in LEO (Low Earth Orbit) is incredibly difficult. There were huge problems when trying to put the dinky pieces of the International Space Station together; a failure to dock one time cost billions of dollars.
What you suggest, Runnerbax, is exactly what NASA came up with, back in 1990. That's why it hasn't happened yet.

You don't need an enormous "DeathStar" either, as Robert Zubrin is fond of saying with reference to NASA's terrible proposed Mars missions, only a space capsule the size of a small house, carrying a few people ? very minimalist and efficient and inexpensive and ideal.
And astronauts, intelligent people who have trained for years and are chosen for the cool-headedness, will not go crazy on each other as so many people fear. Are we so cynical as to believe that they'd kill each other or some nonsense?

What about a crew of 20-30? There needs to be more than 8 people at least as small groups can quickly get very confrontational. I know this from experience as a city council man at BBS. There needs to be more varity of people.

Ach, no, that is again, in my opinion, the exactly wrong thing to do. In larger societies, factions arise, not greater unity. The smaller, more family-like a crew is, the better for such a first mission.

I say if we're going to assemble in orbit (and I definitely think we should; Earth's gravity is just too expensive currently), do it on the moon and do it right.

Where exactly would you construct this trans-Mars capsule and rocket? At our manned Moon Base?
Ah, but we don't have one of those... so it would take ungodly billions of dollars just to build on the Moon what we already have in spades on Earth: construction and launch sites.

You mention it being "too expensive", to launch the whole thing from Earth, and that therefore we should launch it from space.
It would be a great idea ? except that the parts to build a ship aren't exactly floating around low Earth orbit. They have to come from somewhere, which is Earth, where they must be tested and manufactured efficiently, safely, logically. In the end, it would cost more in launching the vehicle piece by piece due to the waste of fuel alone from the individual launch boosters, to say nothing of the in-space construction cost.

The Moon is just as useless. It has no minerals we will be able to mine before we obtain fusion power to have adequate energy to break the iron, carbon, titatium from the oxides they are bound into. Even if we could mine it, you'd be talking about building smelting, manufacturing plants, huge industry on the Moon that doesn't exist yet and would take years to develop, and all in a total vacuum.

Launching from the Moon or LEO might be logical ? if it weren't that the spacecraft itself has to come from somewhere, which is the Earth. As it's coming from Earth (naturally) anyway, there is no need to break it up into bite-sized pieces for easier handling and consumption, no need to launch it from the Moon because of it's lower escape velocity, and no need for galaxy class, interplanetary Battlestar Galactica city-ships carrying hundreds of people to a place they will only stay for a few months.

"What we need is a tuna can."
-Robert Zubrin, The Case for Mars, referring to the habitat that would sustain four crew for a full, wonderful mission.

Alokmohan, definitely read
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684835509/qid=1063548952/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2456138-5627034?v=glance&s=books"The Case for Mars"

and

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de … s]Entering Space

by Dr. Robert Zubrin. He is a great man, and a genious, and if you see humans on Mars in your life, you'll have him to thank.

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#26 2002-11-27 09:17:29

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#27 2002-11-27 14:44:56

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#28 2002-11-27 14:59:51

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#29 2002-11-27 15:01:50

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#30 2002-12-04 14:29:44

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#31 2002-12-04 15:32:27

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#32 2002-12-04 15:57:47

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#33 2002-12-05 04:47:47

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#34 2002-12-05 19:53:02

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#35 2002-12-05 20:14:46

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#36 2002-12-06 23:19:23

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#37 2002-12-07 02:35:21

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#38 2002-12-07 09:29:42

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#39 2002-12-07 14:48:53

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#40 2002-12-07 16:21:44

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#41 2002-12-15 15:06:06

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#42 2002-12-15 23:10:30

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#43 2003-04-30 17:42:04

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#44 2003-08-08 08:19:35

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#45 2003-08-08 14:35:23

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#46 2003-08-09 19:37:54

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#47 2003-08-10 00:51:34

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#48 2003-09-14 05:25:08

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#49 2003-09-14 08:25:42

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

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