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#51 2005-08-17 14:17:01

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Reuseable heavy lift is not ever going to happen... reuseable medium lift maybe (as much or a bit less then Shuttle), but without antigravity drive or a fantasticly powerful super rocket fuel, reuseable heavy lift is silly.

Private research can't make any money off it, so they aren't going to get the investment needed to build such vehicles. Especially not advanced technologies needed for reuseable medium lift, like super thermal tiles or hypersonic jet engines.

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

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#52 2005-08-17 14:49:47

Dragoneye
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From: Romeoville, IL
Registered: 2005-08-17
Posts: 100

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Reuseable heavy lift is not ever going to happen... reuseable medium lift maybe (as much or a bit less then Shuttle), but without antigravity drive or a fantasticly powerful super rocket fuel, reuseable heavy lift is silly.

Private research can't make any money off it, so they aren't going to get the investment needed to build such vehicles. Especially not advanced technologies needed for reuseable medium lift, like super thermal tiles or hypersonic jet engines.

ok so say its a medium lift with the potential to work cheaply and everything...

it would be a great investment to have a "competition" to have some private contractors put some ideas together, test some stuff out, and enter it in the competition... I know I for one have been working on smaller crafts with amazing potential thus far. just takes time, creative thinking, and some hard work.

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#53 2005-08-17 15:34:26

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

No, not really...

There are a very limited number of concepts for practical 100% "no kidding" reuseable medium lift vehicles (only about four actually) and any of them would be so difficult that only a few companies in the world - all established aerospace giants - could possibly pull them off. Especially the most difficult one, single-stage to orbit (SSTO) runway takeoff & landing spaceplanes, which will without a doubt require a revolutionary new propulsion system.

1-SSTO spaceplane, revolutionary propulsion, cooling systems, and materials

2-Two stage spaceplane (runway takeoff), using  evolved technologies, but would be very large

3-Two stage spaceplane (verticle launch) using available technologies, but would be extremely large and difficult to operate cheaply

4-SSTO rocket, launching and landing using rocket power, requires advanced materials and improved fuel/engines, will also be very big

None of these are easy to do for one very simple reason, that burning rocket fuel has a limited amount of energy per-pound, which nessesitates that the rocket be either extremely efficent or extremely large in order to push its own fuel.

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

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#54 2005-08-17 15:53:27

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

1-SSTO spaceplane, revolutionary propulsion, cooling systems, and materials

You could do number 1 with a scramjet right? Anyway, if we get the RLV above 20 tons to LEO then most things we want to ship to space we will be able to do in one piece.

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#55 2005-08-17 15:55:01

Dragoneye
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From: Romeoville, IL
Registered: 2005-08-17
Posts: 100

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

im sorry, i didn't mean the private companys should make it, but do computer simulation test models, and so on. stuff like that isn't 1/4 as expensive.

personally i look at it as an investment for bigger companys to invest in smaller ones to work on ideas...

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#56 2005-08-17 15:57:10

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

im sorry, i didn't mean the private companys should make it, but do computer simulation test models, and so on. stuff like that isn't 1/4 as expensive.

personally i look at it as an investment for bigger companys to invest in smaller ones to work on ideas...

Kind of like how space agencies fund universities to help develop electric propulsion engines.

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#57 2005-08-17 16:08:57

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Even low-level trade studies or system development can become very expensive. I am sure that billions of dollars would have to be spent to make a practical scramjet for a spaceplane, a few billion for possibly microwave heaters, billions for the active skin cooling, hundreds of millions developing the fuel... and so on. A true SSTO spaceplane is a $30Bn project, even doing "little" things with it won't come cheaply.

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

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#58 2005-08-17 16:28:22

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Even low-level trade studies or system development can become very expensive. I am sure that billions of dollars would have to be spent to make a practical scramjet for a spaceplane, a few billion for possibly microwave heaters, billions for the active skin cooling, hundreds of millions developing the fuel... and so on. A true SSTO spaceplane is a $30Bn project, even doing "little" things with it won't come cheaply.

What about some ablative coating that cools the vehicle as it vaporizes? Of course I suppose you still might want active cooling to preheat the hydrogen before combustion. Engine temperatures could be a bigger problem. Would it be possible to design an engine so that as the speed increases the amount the air compressed decreases to try to keep down the heating caused bybthe air being compressed as it compressed as the enters the engine.

What is there for cooling anyway, there is the expanding hydrogen and any solids that vaporize. Perhaps some kind of coating could be sprayed in the engine that would vaporize each flight to try to keep engine temperatures down.

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#59 2005-08-17 16:45:35

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

For engine cooling how about an engine made our of ceramics and coated in platinum before each flight. I wonder how much vaporizing platinum will cool down an engine that is too hot.

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#60 2005-08-17 17:23:56

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

An ablative heat shield is heavy, and whatever shield is used, it has got to be reuseable. Ablative heat shields aren't, so they are out. Regenerative skin cooling with the Hydrogen fuel is a must too, since it increases the efficency of the engine alot.

You have to have alot of air compression if you are going to maintain thrust... by the sound of it, the engine temperature isn't a huge obsticle, since you could afford some weight here. Since it will be cooled by the fuel, engine temperature should not be a show-stopper.

Slushed hydrogen has the highest specific heat of any  material in the universe, its the ideal coolant.

[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

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#61 2005-08-17 17:29:54

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Slushed hydrogen has the highest specific heat of any  material in the universe, its the ideal coolant.

Wow! That is convenient. smile

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#62 2005-08-24 16:44:45

publiusr
Banned
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

from www.nasawatch.com

Rove has signed on to griffs plans.

Somew in the White House still balk.

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#63 2005-08-24 19:30:11

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Karl Rove's opinion is very important to the president, but he doesn't have any official authority to approve or reject NASA plans.  The ultimate authority rests on Congress to fund the VSE.

I suspect the delay has to do with the selection of the in-line SDV.  In-line requires more funding than the side-mount, and NASA will probably require more money beginning in FY 2007 to begin development in time for a 2018 moon mission.

The lesson NASA has hopefully learned from the shuttle is that you will get a lemon if you don't spend enough money during the development.  Let's hope that in-line SDV doesn't become an albatross like its predecessor.

Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#65 2005-08-25 18:36:45

Ad Astra
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Registered: 2003-02-02
Posts: 584

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Looks like I was wrong about the holdup--the sticking point is the accelerated CEV development, not the drawn-out SDV development.

If one looks at the history of the shuttle's development, the real bad guys are the OMB.  They forced NASA and the Air Force to share the shuttle, even though the Air Force didn't want it (manned launches draw too much attention on secret missions) and the Air Force requirements created a vehicle that was too large and complex for the NASA mission.  Then the OMB had the gall to cut the shuttle development budget in half.

OMB is repeating many of the past mistakes.  You'd have hoped they'd learn by now.

Who needs Michael Griffin when you can have Peter Griffin?  Catch "Family Guy" Sunday nights on FOX.

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#66 2005-08-25 18:43:56

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

What does OMB stand for?

Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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#67 2005-08-27 11:34:10

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,926
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Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Thanks publisusr, I had to use a web translator to read ww.espacial.org web pages, but it told me exactly where Buran orbiters ended up. So the orbiter outside exposed to the elements with heat shield tiles hacked off to sell to tourists is one of the full size mockups, OK-ML-1. After reading Encyclopedia Astronautica I thought the last 2 of the 5 ordered were cancelled and scrapped, but especial says the 4th one (orbiter 2.02) was only 10-20% complete and still at the factory, the 5th one (orbiter 2.03) only had its engines built and no one can find any recognizable components any more. The 3rd one (orbiter 2.01) was going to be the first one with life support and seats but was only 40-50% complete, still at the factory but web documents hint it's destined for a German museum. The first one, Buran (orbiter 1.01) was destroyed in the roof collapse of building MIK-RN (vehicle assembly building). However Ptichka (translates as "Birdie") orbiter 1.02 is 95% complete and still somewhere at Baikonur. Ptichka is of the first series, without life support, but explains why Russia says the Buran class orbiter could fly again.

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#68 2005-08-31 15:22:07

publiusr
Banned
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Sadly--we just had the equivalent of the hanger collapse in some respects due to the hurricane:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=17918


That could finish STS. If I didn't know better--I'd say Revenger and the EELV folks were practicing voodoo on it roll

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#69 2005-09-01 00:44:00

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,926
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

::shutter:: I'm sitting here unemployed at the moment. I have a job application in but haven't heard back yet. I also have the first phase of a contract bid in but expected to receive the next phase last week; only those deemed "qualified" would receive the second phase request so this doesn't sound good. I also keep thinking of building houses. My maternal grandfather build houses for a living, I have a cousin who does so today. With my father I built several garages, driveways, sidewalks, converted a storage shed into a playhouse (installed windows & electrical), and finished one basement (built my teenage bedroom). I know framing, roofing, sheething, drywall, concrete, electrical, plumbing, ducting. When we finished the basement we moved the furnace. Dad hired a professional to move the natural gas line but we installed new heating and air return ducts together. All this makes me think I could construct houses rather than sitting sending out job applications.

The mention of Michoud workers loosing their homes makes me think of this again. However, I would want to build high quality homes that are different that the usual. I would build them proof against any natural disaster, so difficult to break into that thieves would have to pay more for tools than they would get from your home, and low cost to operate (zero maintenance and energy independent). The catch is affordable solar cells. But this disaster in Louisiana reminds me that the first criteria to make it disaster proof is to identify the worst possible natural disaster that could happen in the area and select a site that can survive it. I live in an area that floods every spring, the key is high ground. Land south of the city outside the area protected by the floodway is known to flood so don't build there. The "Flood of the Century" in 1997 was the worst flood on record, so that says how high water will get. The Golf coast gets hurricanes; I lived through 2 when I lived in Miami, Florida. I lived through hurricane Floyd, it was category 5 but luckily we only caught an edge of it. I worked for the county government at the time, they evacuated the city close to the coast and employees like myself were on-call to serve as emergency workers if it did land-fall. I was told that I would be called upon to direct traffic when traffic lights were brought down. Again, we were lucky the edge was only mild. When I arrived in Florida and chose an apartment I made a point of looking up county evacuation plans and chose a building outside the evacuation zone. I got an apartment above the 2nd floor so it couldn't flood. One cupboard shelf was stocked with hurricane supplies: flashlight and batteries, and food that didn't require refrigeration or a stove to cook. I got a small charcoal barbecue anyway. When the hurricane was announced everyone ran to the stores in a panic but I just sat at home watching TV. When the evacuation was called my girlfriend came to my apartment; her condo was on a Key. We watched the weather channel until it was over. So, if I were to build houses in Louisiana to help people there, I would start by choosing a site above sea level and where flood water wouldn't rise above the basement concrete wall (or foundation concrete pillars) even with a direct hit by a category 5 hurricane. Since living through my first hurricane, Fran in Richmond Virginia in 1996, I've always wanted a house proof against the worst hurricane or tornado on record. To me that means strong all-brick sides, hurricane glass in the windows, steel entry doors, and roofing that won't blow away in hurricane force wind. But after watching video of New Orleans homes that became islands, I think if I were to build homes the first thing is to build elsewhere.

By the way, why does Miami have overhead power wires downtown? In a hurricane zone overhead wires will blow down, planning should burry all power lines. Traffic signal lights were hung on wires; they should be mounted on steel poles. City infrastructure should be built expecting the worst hurricane.

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#70 2005-09-01 12:55:19

publiusr
Banned
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

Alabama was struck pretty hard--even the battleship was moved. I wrote a piece about how this country could better use its resources here:
http://starshipmodeler.net/cgi-bin/phpB … 364#400364

Some nice links:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/skyation.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/otrag.htm

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#71 2005-09-01 17:30:10

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,926
Website

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

"Gundamdome" of that forum is locked for non-members. Since clicking on the line brings a log-on window, and the post you linked starts with "400" and "Gundamdome" is "f=4" (forum 4) in the link from their forum index page, I conclude that's where your link is supposed to go. Sorry, can't read it.

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#72 2005-09-08 14:26:55

publiusr
Banned
From: Alabama
Registered: 2005-02-24
Posts: 682

Re: The Myth of heavy lift 2 - (Let the fight find a new home)

It's a nice site.

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