Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

tim_perdue · 2002-11-19 15:00:03

Full story here:

http://scileap.com/stories/2002/marscol … id=8&cat=4

I read with great interest Dr. Robert Zubrin's excellent book The Case For Mars and it certainly stimulated my imagination to say the least. I began to think about how his "Mars Direct" plan could be modified to be even cheaper, and produce a permanent colony instead of a 500-day mission which may never be repeated. Instead of expending so much of the mission budget on a return vehicle, you could instead focus on delivering basic infrastructure to form a permanent colony on mars.

AltToWar · 2002-11-19 17:46:59

Lesbians in space?

How about you have just 1 guy go. I volunteer.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-11-19 18:29:30

Welcome, Tim!

The idea of a one-way trip to Mars has been suggested before but I don't think I've ever come across a plan to send an all-female crew with men replaced by semen samples.
I suppose one of the problems we might face is finding women prepared to leave Earth forever, renounce their chance of a normal relationship with a man, live a very spartan existence on a strange world, and act as baby-making machines! You, yourself, have referred to possible difficulties in finding such people.

If I were a woman, I don't think I'd be interested in going to Mars in circumstances like that, but who knows what drives different individuals.

I'm hoping that when we finally get off our butts and go to Mars, it won't be on such a shoe-string budget that your suggestion becomes necessary. It doesn't really fit in with my vision of Martian exploration and colonisation, but then you never know what the future might bring.

AltToWar · 2002-11-19 18:57:46

I dont know, I know a few women who think the an entire world free of men would be a great place to live.

tim_perdue · 2002-11-19 19:03:22

Heheheh - yes I thought the sperm bank was a unique angle. A colony of lesbians could make for some interesting viewing on "reality tv". "Real World Mars" on MTV maybe? ;-)

Personally, I am hoping for a technological breakthrough that will make space launches cheap and practical, if not for everyone, than at least the upper middle class.

I've spent a lot of time looking into that possibility, and there are a couple of potentially interesting things in the works, with the "Black Light Rocket", the space elevator and "Eugene Podkletnov". The BLR appears to be scientifically validated, the space elevator is 15 years away, and NASA is currently working to validate the Podkletnov device.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.03 … ty_pr.html
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf....202.pdf
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,51792,00.html

So who knows, a full-blown settlement may be achievable in 10+ years by private investment alone.

Phobos · 2002-11-19 21:37:50

Personally, I'm putting my betting dollars on the space elevator. If one can be built and proven feasible I don't think it'll be long before we have elevators like that magnificent beast mentioned by Shaun in another thread. One that can carry mindblowing amounts of payloads into the beyond for practically nothing.

Palomar · 2002-11-20 10:30:30

I dont know, I know a few women who think the an entire world free of men would be a great place to live.

*I'll go ahead and presume these women have never worked
8 hours a day, 5 days a week in an office staffed only by women! Ha ha ha. I worked in a large transcription office in a major Albuquerque hospital 5 years ago...what a viper pit. Some women [myself included] try to get along with other women in a female exclusive enviroment...most, however, do not.

A world without men? I'd rather die.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-11-21 00:48:35

On behalf of men everywhere, I convey a vote of gratitude to Cindy!

In a world where the role of the male is so often undermined by the ugly excesses of feminism gone feral, it is refreshing to find we are still appreciated by some women!

Many thanks!!

P.S. Equal pay for equal work!!

Palomar · 2002-11-21 10:41:03

On behalf of men everywhere, I convey a vote of gratitude to Cindy!
In a world where the role of the male is so often undermined by the ugly excesses of feminism gone feral, it is refreshing to find we are still appreciated by some women!
Many thanks!!
P.S. Equal pay for equal work!!

*Feminisim gone feral...yes, I'd say that is a very appropriate phrase.

I'm not a feminist; I'm a HUMANist -- as in BOTH male and female.

Awhile back, someone here mentioned a feminist [can't recall her name] who suggested women rise up and kill all men, as this is the only way women are ensured of any sort of future. This is just plain CRAZY [and not just for obvious reasons]. As I responded then, the domineering women would then just enslave, oppress, degrade, etc., other women. There's no utopia to be found where there's humans [of either gender].

The women back home [Iowa] and the Hispanic women around here [southern New Mexico] are pretty cool. They can be very gracious, open, and genuinely friendly. The white women born and raised in this area, however, are a different "breed" altogether. I've previously worked in a few offices around here; the white women native to this area are constantly at each others' throats, always locked in these ultrabitchy cat fights. They are stand-offish and cold when meeting them the first time, and otherwise just really hostile and unpleasant. I don't get it, and I'm white myself!

I also very much resent and dislike the feminist attitude that women are superior to men. What, it's okay for women to claim superiority, but not men? These are the same gals who voraciously condemn male claims of superiority. It's hypocrisy. A few months ago I came across a personal web page which happened to belong to a butch lesbian. I was curious, so read it. Her personal page quoted herself and other butch lesbians as putting down and degrading their "femme" lovers, i.e. "get your nail polish dried, bitch;" "shut up and hand me the power tool like a good little girl;" "make me a chicken pot pie now, bitch!" etc. Things like that; it was like reading put-downs from a macho men's magazine ala 1950! It blew me away; I mean, it takes a lot to shock me, but that did shock me. Women treating other women this way, and to them it's funny and justifiable. Whatever. If that same woman found a -man's- page saying crap like that, oh my god it'd be World War 4!!

It's stupid. I'm not saying -all- butch lesbians are like that, I have absolutely no idea; but it sure shoots another hole in the ridiculous theory that a women-only world WOULDN'T be nice and wonderful. As if I didn't know that already.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-11-22 14:40:04

Awhile back, someone here mentioned a feminist [can't recall her name] who suggested women rise up and kill all men, as this is the only way women are ensured of any sort of future.

That would be Valerie Solanas. It just gives me the creeps that there are people out there who see her as some shining example of feminism. We won't get anywhere if we continue to spew hate toward people under any guise and these very Solanas-style radical feminists are definately haters as bad as racists. You can't preach tolerance on one hand and advocate genocide against 50% of the population on the other. It's the ultimate in hypocrisy. A humanist attitude where we realize we are all human and therefore have the equal right to strive toward any goal and develop our attributes is a less divisive and more effective philosophy in my opinion.

Josh Cryer · 2002-11-22 19:13:51

I think those people who exist on the extremes need serious help. I know of, and I have argued with, people who think that deep ecology is the only ?just? solution to human organization. In other words, they think that a world without humans is the ?best? one and that any other system is ?unfair.? They argue that humans should simply stop existing; quite an amazing thing to say, really. I sometimes pretend that they're not serious, to bring some sanity to their concepts. It's just a big joke to me.

soph · 2002-11-25 14:20:46

i see two problems with a female only crew. first, what can they do while they are pregnant? i dont suppose a pregnant woman can be much help to a colony. no, the colony has to be built in stages, after a time being able to support an incapacitated colonist, and his/her baby. a colony would have to be established before babies could be supported and cared for. perhaps nuseries could be formed to take care of all babies 18 hours a day, but this is still not possible before the colony is several years old, unless you send a bigger, single, 50 person mission.

second, no sexism intended, but women are not as physically capable as men in some situations, and vice versa. women can do many things men are less capable at, yes, but men are usually better at brute work, like lifting or moving. so, the crew should be diverse, not men or women only, but a mix.

dicktice · 2002-11-25 16:53:48

How foolish! This is Mars, remember, where a typical woman from Earth would be able to do a typical man from Earth's work, brute or otherwise... Also, where's the incentive to civilization without kids to bring up at the same time as pioneering? You belong in Victorian times, when women were purposely hobbled. For shame!

soph · 2002-11-25 17:01:35

i never said without kids. i said that you cant have kids with a limited workforce and no existing infrastructure.

im not saying that women arent just as important as men, what im saying is that both have differing roles in a future colony. im not saying women should stay inside and cook for men, of course not.

Phobos · 2002-11-25 18:35:09

see two problems with a female only crew. first, what can they do while they are pregnant?

If the crew is entirely female how will they get pregnant? Risky sex a few days before lift off maybe? Actually I think a mixed crew is still best if they can keep their animal instincts under control. I don't like the idea of being in an all male crew for two years anymore than Cindy apparently doesn't like the idea of being in an all female crew. I think a mixed gender crew would be better for morale.

soph · 2002-11-25 18:52:47

where will the sperm be fertilized and carried in this plan? or am i missing something?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-11-26 00:22:59

I think there's some confusion here. The all-female crew is supposed to be taking many different sperm samples with them so that fertilisation can be undertaken as and when required.
As I understand it, the actual insemination will have to be performed by crew members, one for another.

Hell!! ... It sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to when there are so many of us cute cuddly guys ready willing and able to make the trip!!!

Palomar · 2002-11-26 09:26:35

I don't like the idea of being in an all male crew for two years anymore than Cindy apparently doesn't like the idea of being in an all female crew. I think a mixed gender crew would be better for morale.

*I'm just doubtful of how well an all-female crew could function together. I base this on my previous years [approximately 12] of working in mostly female-exclusive enclosed offices [I currently run my own transcription business]. I hate to sound negative toward my own gender for obvious reasons, and yes there have been and are individual exceptions [myself included], but here are just a few *consistent* behaviors I've seen from women in offices, in different geographical locations, of varying ages, etc:

1. Two women will be drawn toward each other in an office friendship, and other women are given very obvious clues to keep their distance and any approach is considered an "intrusion" into the dyad. This is whether they're working side-by-side in cubicles/desks or simply out for a stroll during coffee break.

2. Ostracization. Women are -really- good at punishing other women right in the weak spot, i.e. the socialization desire. A former coworker in 1990 was ostracized by most of the office. Her name was Linda, she was 14 years [or so] my senior and had been living in California for years. For whatever reason, the adjoining office which she worked in [Medical Records, which is always annexed to the Transcription Department of hospitals and clinics] absolutely ostracized her. She came almost literally crawling to a few of us transcribers; I befriended her, and she told me she felt they hated her because she'd been living a more varied, open, and interesting lifestyle in California as compared to dreary and dull northern Iowa [where the office was located]. I watched her for a few days, and I noticed NOTHING that warranted her being picked on, treated like trash, and ostracized by the Medical Records people. I watched her try to fight back, which only brought more indignation on her head; women in that situation are -not- allowed to win whatsoever. Women can be very cruel to other women. A transcriber named Diane and I were the only people who befriended Linda in that office complex. Negative gossip and comments about me came back to my ears, things were being said about me [untruths] because I'd befriended Linda, and Diane was getting the same sort of treatment. I guess the gals in Medical Records didn't want anyone else to see it was they who were being the assholes and Linda was okay. Imagine this sort of crap happening in a woman-only environment in a setting like going to Mars. Sure, you'd like to think that highly intelligent women with PhDs and other degrees wouldn't behave that way; maybe they wouldn't, but most gals I've worked with are of normal intelligence at least...and human nature is pretty much the same; I've also known some highly degreed and intelligent people who are as much assholes as anybody else.

3. Women don't like to confront each other. Believe it or not, in an office [enclosed] setting, most women prefer to run to the supervisor like a grade-school tattle-tale and rat on a woman she feels has offended her, rather than approaching the person in question and confronting her [even polite confrontation].

Those are the major problems I saw repeatedly in women-only interactions. Thus, I'm skeptical a women-only mission to Mars would work...unless these behaviors are addressed beforehand.

Just being honest. And for the record [not wanting to criticize my gender only], men have their own well-documented peculiar childishnesses and stupidities...which is why a mixed-gender crew will be for the best, IMO.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-11-26 09:33:52

I think there's some confusion here. The all-female crew is supposed to be taking many different sperm samples with them so that fertilisation can be undertaken as and when required.
As I understand it, the actual insemination will have to be performed by crew members, one for another.
Hell!! ... It sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to when there are so many of us cute cuddly guys ready willing and able to make the trip!!!

*Yeah! Give me the old-fashioned way of making babies or give me death!!

--Cindy

tim_perdue · 2002-11-26 15:57:42

I wish I could figure out how this board works (quoting in particular)

"more varied, open, and interesting lifestyle in California as compared to dreary and dull northern Iowa [where the office was located]"

That's hilarious - I'm originally from Northern Iowa. What city was this office in?

It's well-known that women don't function well in office settings, but they can be OK in small groups, aka "Sex in the City". Maybe 8 people is too darned big though??

Palomar · 2002-11-26 16:09:18

I wish I could figure out how this board works (quoting in particular)
"more varied, open, and interesting lifestyle in California as compared to dreary and dull northern Iowa [where the office was located]"
That's hilarious - I'm originally from Northern Iowa. What city was this office in?
It's well-known that women don't function well in office settings, but they can be OK in small groups, aka "Sex in the City". Maybe 8 people is too darned big though??

*Mason City.

I was born and raised in northern Iowa, thus I have no qualms about calling it dull and dreary; I can't think of two better adjectives.

--Cindy

P.S.: As for whether small groups of women is better: It depends. The 2nd-to-last office job I had was comprised of no more than 4 women at a time. The supervisor, Anna, was the rotten apple of the bunch, who went out of her way to always try and keep one of the other women "odd-gal out", to try and set people against each other, etc.; but she had emotional troubles and I doubt a person like her, male or female, would be included in a mission anywhere, let alone to Mars. Those coworkers were good, but of course it only takes one person to create a strain on everyone else.

I've often thought [not trying to get too off-topic here] that one of the main factors involved in many women not getting along well in enclosed offices is due to frustration in the home, and them bringing their troubles to work and [unconsciously or otherwise] taking their frustrations and anger out on their coworkers; in other words, what hubby and kids should get at home, the coworkers get. Another very probable factor are some women having their only opportunity to exert some control and aggressiveness at work, particularly if their husbands are very domineering and within the home they are expected to be submissive little doormats. I recall one coworker who about went into nuclear meltdown when I borrowed a pencil off her desk for a moment [a doctor walked in with a demand and I had to respond then and there], and though I did conscientiously put it back immediately, she nevertheless gave me a scolding for not putting it back IN THE **EXACT** PLACE I'd found it in [i.e. maybe 1 inch from where it'd originally rested]. We later became friends; she felt bad about it and apologized...but I mean, things of that nature are -not- uncommon in dealing with women. I noticed that single women are usually easier to work with than married women, but not always of course.

My sister has a phrase she likes to refer to in this regard: "Too many hens in the hen-house." It can be all too true, unfortunately.

Phobos · 2002-11-26 20:44:47

I watched her for a few days, and I noticed NOTHING that warranted her being picked on, treated like trash, and ostracized by the Medical Records people. I watched her try to fight back, which only brought more indignation on her head; women in that situation are -not- allowed to win whatsoever. Women can be very cruel to other women. A transcriber named Diane and I were the only people who befriended Linda in that office complex.

You know, not too long ago the place where I work hired a new secretary and I've noticed that the other people in the office tend to viciously get on her case for every little mistake that she makes. Just yesterday she bound a report wrong and one of the other secretaries in a very vindictive voice said "do I have to do everything for you!" I always thought these kinds of things came from the stress of the environment but maybe there's other factors at work to (she's a lot younger than the other ones.) Of course I'm always being accused of laziness because I don't want to work all night. Being a quasi-minimalist that lives way below my means I just don't see the point. And it seems all I do at work anyway is dream about building space elevators and transhumanism. I'm a hopeless dreamer.

Byron · 2002-11-27 04:16:22

And it seems all I do at work anyway is dream about building space elevators and transhumanism. I'm a hopeless dreamer.

Sounds a LOT like me..LOL...back when I used to work for the county, I would quickly get bored with withever I was doing and daydream about Mars, etc...lol. I often felt that the work I was doing was meaningless (which it was), and a complete insult to my intelligence.

I'm telling anyone who might be reading this who is trapped in a negative office situation, such as Cindy described in her posts above...do yourself a favor and get out...immediately. If you're unable to do that, then fight back - without mercy.

I was once highly *ostracized* by a female supervisor...and boy, when you're on someone's bad side like that..it ain't a whole lotta fun ??? It was a terrible experience, to say the least, and the resulting trauma...shoot I'm still getting over it, and it's been years now. And the truth of the matter, one of my life goals is to write a book someday about *workplace abuse*, as I think it's truly a serious problem that really needs to be addressed...nobody should have to go through what I went through. It's people being inhumane to other people, and there is no excuse for that kind of behavior at ALL.

I urge anyone who is being treated unfairly, picked on, insulted, harrassed...you have fight back, and fight back hard...sue their butts off, or whatever you have to do...otherwise it will get worse and worse. Believe me...I've been there.

B

Palomar · 2002-11-27 08:57:08

You know, not too long ago the place where I work hired a new secretary and I've noticed that the other people in the office tend to viciously get on her case for every little mistake that she makes. Just yesterday she bound a report wrong and one of the other secretaries in a very vindictive voice said "do I have to do everything for you!" I always thought these kinds of things came from the stress of the environment but maybe there's other factors at work to (she's a lot younger than the other ones.)

*It's because she's younger, I can guarantee that. When I started out on my career path I didn't encounter much negativity/hostility by older women, mostly because I'm a hard worker, I learn quickly, and I'm very good at what I do. My own personal experience in offices is that I got along okay, encountered some jealousy if anything, but was recognized for the good, quick, efficient work that I do; thus, I garnered respect from coworkers, physicians, etc. But people also tended to get the drift, based on the way I conduct myself, that I was there to work, perform my duties...and that I wouldn't feel obligated to take any crap from anybody.

But yes, I have seen younger women really get it in the neck from older women -- simply because of youth. However, in all fairness, the majority of older women I've worked with are helpful to the younger ones, will try to "take them under their wing" to some extent, etc.

--Cindy

dickbill · 2002-11-27 09:13:48

Hi all,

Surreallist thread, women only on the Red planet, God of War, Symbol of Masculinity ? It's just an epidermic reaction I guess, more a provocative joke than anything else.

The real issue is pregnancy on Mars. Days at 24 hours 5minutes, 0.38 g, restrictive (vegan) food, etc. What about hormonal signals shifted well above or below 9 months gestation, forbidding any normal delivery.
what about Embryonic Neural tube closure / Brain growth at 0.38g ? Will the fetal brain be overgrowth, undergrowth, No one knows.
For 500 millions years, the vertebrate body has adapted his fetal growth at a 1g gravity, I doubt the shift at 0.38 g will be without concequences. Doctors and Molecular Biologists, men or women, will be required to fix the expected problems: high rate of spontaneous abortion during pregnancy, grossly developmentaly abnormal babbies (those who survive), growth and mental retardation after birth.
For example, I completely disagree that because of low gravity, the martian children will be necesseraly tall (as in KSR trilogy or the recent poem sent by Ms Zubrin: " they grow taller and taller").
Body growth is a function of hormonal signal, food income (check the size of nordic population in the starving middle age: were they all 6 feet tall giants ?). It might well be that under low gravity and no McDonalds available, the children hormonal system won't be stimulated, won't produce enough growth hormone like for "small size people" to speak politically correct. Being tall in rough condition is a disadvantage, you cannot sustain your metabolism by a higher food income, you cannot sustain the calcium in your vertebrae and bones, you just break them. That's just an example that nothing is obvious on Mars except that everything will be difficult.

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#1 2002-11-19 15:00:03

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#2 2002-11-19 17:46:59

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#3 2002-11-19 18:29:30

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#4 2002-11-19 18:57:46

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#5 2002-11-19 19:03:22

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#6 2002-11-19 21:37:50

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#7 2002-11-20 10:30:30

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#8 2002-11-21 00:48:35

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#9 2002-11-21 10:41:03

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#10 2002-11-22 14:40:04

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#11 2002-11-22 19:13:51

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#12 2002-11-25 14:20:46

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#13 2002-11-25 16:53:48

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#14 2002-11-25 17:01:35

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#15 2002-11-25 18:35:09

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#16 2002-11-25 18:52:47

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#17 2002-11-26 00:22:59

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#18 2002-11-26 09:26:35

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#19 2002-11-26 09:33:52

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#20 2002-11-26 15:57:42

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#21 2002-11-26 16:09:18

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#22 2002-11-26 20:44:47

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#23 2002-11-27 04:16:22

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

#24 2002-11-27 08:57:08

Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

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Re: Mars Colonization on a Super-tight Budget - My variation on Mars Direct for a colony

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