Selling out Mars and Science?

Martian Republic · 2005-04-15 23:32:35

When they bombed that city west of Baghdad a few month ago, they killed several thousand then in that city of 200,000. They just bombed the crap out of that town while a major portion of that population of that city was still there. Beside the ones that we just out and out murdered in cold blood. Then there the depleted Uranium that we are using in the bombs and artillery shell, which generates a low nuclear waist for both our own troops and for the Iraqi to breath in, which causes health problem and even death. There are also the ones that starve to death or have poor drinking water because of the war we had in there country. If we break something, then we are responsible to rebuild it. Which we have not done, that has caused many more people to die too.

Oh, we have murdered over 200,000 thousand Iraqi since this war began. You just don't want to admit that we did. But, if you don't care about the Iraqi people, then maybe you might care about the Americans that have died and will die a delayed death because of the depleted uranium that we are using in our weapons. In the last Gulf War we have already lost about 30,000 do to death and have another 200,000 or more former service men and women who have applied for disability, because of medical problems cause because of the war in Iraq. It called Gulf War Syndrome. For the first two or three years they refuse to admit there was such a problem and said it was all in there head. How many American service men are going die this time or be disabled, no one knows. But, the servicemen from World War II, the Korean War, The Veit Nam War and Gulf War I War are coming out in mass against this second Gulf War and occupation of Iraq. I mean actual war veterans are against this war and are asking for the impeachment of George Bush and Dick Cheney. That kind of action by veterans is almost unheard of and Don't know of any President in our history that has had that respose to there foriegn policies by either people in the military or former military in such large numbers. I show us, how much the people in the military hate George Bush and Dick Cheney and hate there foriegn policies also.

Larry,

Martin_Tristar · 2005-04-16 01:25:32

MR,

This not a soapbox for your opinions of the war, or is it because the ancient humans called Mars the God of War !!!!, but I can't see the relationship talking about the issues with earth and the issues that will relate to Mars unless you think we shouldn't go there because we are too young as a race and we might fight over the resources in space like we are doing here.

I think that we are human beings of earth and second our country affiliation but most people are the other way around and until the human race grows up and works together we will have these growing pains as a young race and hopefully we will come together as one people with different cultural, religious and language difference only. Diversity brings strength to the human race but we are one people of one planet called EARTH.

Also the United Nations should be disbanded and replaced with the United Earth Government - One Planetary Government for One Planet for One People and the current UN Members are Member State Governments for their planetary region on earth, but any issue that relates to the whole planet is directed from the planetary government not from a regional government like the United States. I Hope that we start moving that way in the next fifty years or get there before I die.

Now I am on my soapbox.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-16 10:09:52

MR,
This not a soapbox for your opinions of the war, or is it because the ancient humans called Mars the God of War !!!!, but I can't see the relationship talking about the issues with earth and the issues that will relate to Mars unless you think we shouldn't go there because we are too young as a race and we might fight over the resources in space like we are doing here.
I think that we are human beings of earth and second our country affiliation but most people are the other way around and until the human race grows up and works together we will have these growing pains as a young race and hopefully we will come together as one people with different cultural, religious and language difference only. Diversity brings strength to the human race but we are one people of one planet called EARTH.
Also the United Nations should be disbanded and replaced with the United Earth Government - One Planetary Government for One Planet for One People and the current UN Members are Member State Governments for their planetary region on earth, but any issue that relates to the whole planet is directed from the planetary government not from a regional government like the United States. I Hope that we start moving that way in the next fifty years or get there before I die.
Now I am on my soapbox.

I was not going to originally go over the fact that America has killed over 200,000 people in Iraq by one process or another over the last ten to fifteen years, but I was just making a statement of that fact. It was when you challenge that fact and it is a fact, that I went into more details of the killing of those 200,000 people. There are several web site that can give a rough estimate as to how many people have died, but no accurate account is available. So we get what has to be on the low and high of how many have been killed on all side, but it would still be well over 200,000 Iraqi killed by Americans as they engage in war on Iraq.

But, as to government, it would not make any difference if we had one government or a bunch of governments on Earth. The distinguishing difference is the type of government or kind of policies that they engage in or in there world view of man and what government should be. If George Bush and there crowd were able to conquer the world and have a worldwide Empire, that would not make things better for mankind. Beside the fact that not going to happen, a worldwide Empire is just not a good thing to have or something that we want to do.

But, an American that goes back to the US Constitution and principle of the General Welfare for all Americans and world population at large in sovereign nation state configuration. Then that would be different. Where everyone is seeking a common good for everybody else on this planet and we honor the sovereignty of other nations, instead of invading them like George Bush like to do in the middle east. Now George Bush is working up a new Axis of Evil for the Western Hemisphere too. It includes Cuba, Castro and Venezuela, Chevies and he also trying to intimidate Brazil too, to stay out of this contest between the United States and Cuba, Venezuela.

But, as to why the United States is threatening most of the other countries is, because the financial Oligarchy is trying to maintain there control over the earth. Until we deal with this Oligarchy, there will be war, famine, disease, corruption, mass murder, slander and just out and out tyranny on a global scale in a run away fashion. We will either go into a new dark age or we will go into a new Renaissance, but we will not continue doing what we are doing right now. This Oligarchy is this old class warfare for control based on slavery, monitory control by a select few over the many. This Oligarchy that trying to maintain there control over the Earth are the ones that are responsible for every war that the United State has gotten into in the 20th Century. They also are responsible for setting up the British Empire, Adolph Hitler, Napoleon, the communist in both Russia and China.

If we are serious about developing space, then we will have to deal with this Oligarchy that controls the Earth. As long as this Oligarchy controls the money supply and controls major governments like the United States, they will sabotage the space program, because they see it as a threat to there control. Beside, what there doing will cause a new dark age and if we economically collapse, then we won’t have the technology to do a space program, because we will be back in horse drawn cartridges again and black smiths. It will not be a society that can build city on the Moon or Mars and the Apollo Mission will recede into folklore of what man did in the distant past. Some people will believe that we did and some will think it was some superstition of some foreign religion or something.

It not something that I would like to see happen.

Larry,

Dook · 2005-04-16 11:23:12

Depleted uranium in bombs and artillery shells? Ridiculous. Depleted uranium is very heavy and would be only a burden in a bomb or artillery shell.

Depleted uranium is only used in certain tank shells and the A-10's tank busting gun. Tank's would rarely need to fire their main gun in a suburban combat environment.

On April 16 you posted that veterans are coming out in mass against the President and the Vice President. Really? Where? By the way, the election was only a few months ago and George Bush won easily. You think any President gets elected without the support of the entire military/veteran population?

Nothing you say ever stands up to reason.

Financial Oligarchy that set up the British Empire, Hitler, Napoleon, and Communism? Riiiiight.

You favor conspiracies, likely because it makes you feel better about your own plot in life. It's not your fault that you are not more successful in life. It's the unfair system, led by the President, keeping you down.

Also, the financial institutions that you hate so much? We are going to set them up on our space stations and on mars too. You can't get away from them. They are going to control you forever!

Martian Republic · 2005-04-16 14:29:11

Depleted uranium in bombs and artillery shells? Ridiculous. Depleted uranium is very heavy and would be only a burden in a bomb or artillery shell.
Depleted uranium is only used in certain tank shells and the A-10's tank busting gun. Tank's would rarely need to fire their main gun in a suburban combat environment.
On April 16 you posted that veterans are coming out in mass against the President and the Vice President. Really? Where? By the way, the election was only a few months ago and George Bush won easily. You think any President gets elected without the support of the entire military/veteran population?
Nothing you say ever stands up to reason.
Financial Oligarchy that set up the British Empire, Hitler, Napoleon, and Communism? Riiiiight.
You favor conspiracies, likely because it makes you feel better about your own plot in life. It's not your fault that you are not more successful in life. It's the unfair system, led by the President, keeping you down.
Also, the financial institutions that you hate so much? We are going to set them up on our space stations and on mars too. You can't get away from them. They are going to control you forever!

Hey, Dook!

Go read up on Depleted Uranium!

http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/du.htm … ted/du.htm

http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc … mettoc.htm

http://www.cadu.org.uk/]http://www.cadu.org.uk/

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land … and/du.htm

http://www.who.int/entity/mediacentre/f … s/fs257/en

Larry,

GCNRevenger · 2005-04-16 15:25:48

You are a stupid, parinoid, ungreatful, unpatriotic, insane waste of our oxygen MR... it enrages me and makes me sick to know that members of my family have bled and died so that you don't know what REAL facism is like... first hand.

So we bombed a city with 200,000 people in it... and killed the majority of them? Ummmm, thats alot more people then were killed in the fire-bombing of Dresden in WW2, and that left nothing intact. We were careful to use precision weapons around civilians, even replacing explosives with concrete for tight spots.

Its insane to think we've killed a quarter of a million innocent Iraqis, thats just beyond beliefe, unless you include the thousands of terrorists and ex-Baathists we've killed. We would have had to wipe out entire towns and small cities to do that.

We don't use DU in bombs or artillery, because DU is only good for armor-piercing weapons. DU is only used in anti-tank missiles, anti-armor bullets, and anti-armor cluster bombs. Since there wern't large columns of tanks hiding in Iraqi streets, then there isn't much DU there either.

DU is so un-radioactive that its barely any different then the regular stuff out of the ground... its chemical toxticity is worse then its radiation. All those sites you mention MR are biased or clueless about the health risks from radioactive material, assuming the discredited linear-no-threshold theory as a fact.

And 30,000 GW1 veterans dying from "Gulf War Syndrome?" WTH are you talking about? It would be plasterd all over every paper and journal in the nation if it were that bad... And you seem to forget that we bombed quite a few bunkers with nerve agents in GW1, which the troops were exposed to the smoke.

You are truely PATHETIC

Martian Republic · 2005-04-16 16:02:05

Depleted uranium in bombs and artillery shells? Ridiculous. Depleted uranium is very heavy and would be only a burden in a bomb or artillery shell.
Depleted uranium is only used in certain tank shells and the A-10's tank busting gun. Tank's would rarely need to fire their main gun in a suburban combat environment.
On April 16 you posted that veterans are coming out in mass against the President and the Vice President. Really? Where? By the way, the election was only a few months ago and George Bush won easily. You think any President gets elected without the support of the entire military/veteran population?
Nothing you say ever stands up to reason.
Financial Oligarchy that set up the British Empire, Hitler, Napoleon, and Communism? Riiiiight.
You favor conspiracies, likely because it makes you feel better about your own plot in life. It's not your fault that you are not more successful in life. It's the unfair system, led by the President, keeping you down.
Also, the financial institutions that you hate so much? We are going to set them up on our space stations and on mars too. You can't get away from them. They are going to control you forever!

Hey, Dook!

Go read up on Veterans against the war in Iraq!

These aren’t from the same web site either and there are probably hundreds of more web site out there too. So don’t tell me everything, OK! On some of these Veterans webs sites, they talk about him being incompetent, immoral, criminal, that he should be impeached, that George Bush is a trader, committed treason, that he’s thug, etc, etc. So don’t tell me that everything is cool between George Bush and the US Military, because there not and many of them would like to see George Bush impeached and maybe even tried as a War Criminal.

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php]http: … /index.php

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op= … ...&sid=86

http://www.ivaw.net/]http://www.ivaw.net/

http://www.ivaw.net/links.htm]http://ww … /links.htm

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature … 0_400.html

Viet Nam Veterans against the war in Iraq.

http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/]http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Made_in … 082504.htm

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0305/030505.h … 030505.htm

Veterans for the impeachment of George Bush and Dick Cheney.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/impeach … chment.htm

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Article … 051003.htm

Veterans calling on congress to impeach the President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney!

http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/03300 … Peace.html

Veterans forming there own blog’s to inform both other people and other Veterans to impeach George Bush.

http://www.freddevan.com/blog/archives/ … 05712.html

Veterans that believe that George Bush has violated both the US Constitution and Nuremberg laws of order and therefor George Bush should be impeached.

http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.php/ … ...203.htm

Veterans fighting against George Bush’s cutting of the Veterans Benefits.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-new … 6477/posts

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/a … ticle/370/

And then we have this web site that does not claim to be either Republican or Democrat or Military, but only claims to be for America and for impeaching George Bush.

http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/]http:/ … h-now.org/

So, most people in America don’t like George Bush and a growing number would like to see him impeached as an American President both in and out of the military and people who have never been in the military either want him out being the President of the United States.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-04-16 16:22:12

Depleted Uranium may be the good stuff. Mixed is;

http://www.miltoxproj.org/DU%20Fact%20Sheet.htm]Spent fuel contains highly radioactive substances including plutonium, neptunium, technetium, and U-236

If you had purer depleted Uranium, it could be used for http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factshee … ]shielding on a Mars mission.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-16 17:04:09

We don't use DU in bombs or artillery, because DU is only good for armor-piercing weapons. DU is only used in anti-tank missiles, anti-armor bullets, and anti-armor cluster bombs. Since there wern't large columns of tanks hiding in Iraqi streets, then there isn't much DU there either.
DU is so un-radioactive that its barely any different then the regular stuff out of the ground... its chemical toxticity is worse then its radiation. All those sites you mention MR are biased or clueless about the health risks from radioactive material, assuming the discredited linear-no-threshold theory as a fact.
And 30,000 GW1 veterans dying from "Gulf War Syndrome?" WTH are you talking about? It would be plasterd all over every paper and journal in the nation if it were that bad... And you seem to forget that we bombed quite a few bunkers with nerve agents in GW1, which the troops were exposed to the smoke.
You are truely PATHETIC

I wish that what I am saying were not true too, but it is true as to what happened in Iraq and our service men and women dying from Gulf War Syndrome. A little back ground history on Captain Joyce Riley. Well she in the Army Medical Cop. And served in the First Iraq War and she way ignorate as to what the US Government was really doing in Iraq and what there game plan was. Everything the US Government told her as to what was happening in Iraq and why we were there, turned out to be a lie. As she began to look into the matter, the Gulf War Syndrome problem begin to show up in former service men. These links go over her testimony as to what she found out and what is really going on over there.

http://www.all-natural.com/riley.html]h … riley.html

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/gulf.h … u/gulf.htm

A little back ground on who Captain Joyce Riley is:

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/bio.htm]http … om/bio.htm

The exposing of the Gulf War Syndrome.

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/bio.htm]http … om/bio.htm

Things that you might want to know about the Gulf War Syndrome.

http://home.earthlink.net/~founders/gul … ulfwar.htm

Veterans in the Gulf War I that are interested in the Gulf War Syndrome, there web site.

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/]http://www.gulfwarvets.com/

One of Captain Joyce Riley’s Web sites

http://www.all-natural.com/riley.html]h … riley.html

Links to the Google search of the Gulf War Syndrome.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& … ...=Search

So the Gulf War Syndrome is a wide spread problem and not just my imagination either.

Larry,

RobS · 2005-04-16 19:48:10

I thought this thread had something to do with "Selling out Mars and Science". . . . .?

-- RobS

MarsDog · 2005-04-16 20:48:54

Most result is still with rovers and remote sensing satellites.

Humans can wait till permanent Mars base construction begins.

Sending humans too early is selling out science.

SpaceNut · 2005-04-28 08:43:42

Another panel of experts? The National Research Council Panel Criticizes NASA For Delaying Missions sharply rebuked NASA yesterday for canceling or delaying Earth-observing space missions, blaming President Bush's moon-Mars initiative for siphoning money from an environment-monitoring satellite system that is "at risk of collapse."

Some of the concerns:

Concern about the future of NASA's $1.49 billion earth science program, whose satellites perform tasks including mapping deforestation and predicting El Niño,
Congress has already protested planned reductions in NASA's aeronautics budget and questioned the agency's decision to cancel a servicing mission to keep alive the Hubble Space Telescope.

NASA is reviewing earth science programs to minimize gaps between the demise of the agency's current satellites and the planned launches, beginning in 2009, of satellites from the new National Polar-orbiting Environmental Operational Satellite System

To congress we go:

Diaz will appear before the House Committee on Science today for a hearing timed to coincide with release of the council's findings -- described by the panel as an interim report from a more comprehensive "decadal survey" of earth science research, scheduled for release at the end of 2006. The report was commissioned by NASA, the oceanic and atmospheric administration, and the U.S. Geological Survey.

Full Committee – Hearing

NASA Earth Science live webcast
10:00a.m. – 12:00p.m.
Witnesses:

Mr. Alphonso V. Diaz, Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate, NASA;
Dr. Berrien Moore III, Director, Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans, and Space, University of New Hampshire;
Dr. Tim Killeen, Director, National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colorado;
Dr. Marcia McNutt, President and Chief Executive Officer, Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute, Moss Landing, California;
Dr. Sean Solomon, Director, Department of Terrestrial Magnetism, Carnegie Institution of Washington; and
Dr. Ray Williamson, Research Professor, Space Policy Institute, The George Washington University

TOPIC OF CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGs to be NASA EARTH SCIENCE PROGRAMS

SpaceNut · 2005-04-29 05:35:09

NASA moves shortchange Earth, science panel says

These are some of the mission that have or are cut.

NASA has canceled, delayed or diminished at least six planned missions, the panel said, identifying two that need to be restarted "immediately." They are:
The Global Precipitation Measurement (GPM) mission. An international project to provide more frequent and accurate measurements of precipitation, considered important to international water security issues.
Geostationary Imaging Fourier Transform Spectrometer (GIFTS). Designed to measure temperature and water vapor, it is expected to provide more rapid detection of atmospheric changes that signal destructive weather events.
Three other canceled climate- and weather-related science missions should be "urgently" reconsidered, members said.

Martian Republic · 2005-04-29 08:05:38

Another panel of experts? The National Research Councilhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/27/AR2005042702211.html] Panel Criticizes NASA For Delaying Missions sharply rebuked NASA yesterday for canceling or delaying Earth-observing space missions, blaming President Bush's moon-Mars initiative for siphoning money from an environment-monitoring satellite system that is "at risk of collapse."
Some of the concerns:
Concern about the future of NASA's $1.49 billion earth science program, whose satellites perform tasks including mapping deforestation and predicting El Niño,
Congress has already protested planned reductions in NASA's aeronautics budget and questioned the agency's decision to cancel a servicing mission to keep alive the Hubble Space Telescope.

NASA is reviewing earth science programs to minimize gaps between the demise of the agency's current satellites and the planned launches, beginning in 2009, of satellites from the new National Polar-orbiting Environmental Operational Satellite System
To congress we go:
Diaz will appear before the House Committee on Science today for a hearing timed to coincide with release of the council's findings -- described by the panel as an interim report from a more comprehensive "decadal survey" of earth science research, scheduled for release at the end of 2006. The report was commissioned by NASA, the oceanic and atmospheric administration, and the U.S. Geological Survey.
http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/f … index.htm] Full Committee – Hearing
http://boss.streamos.com/real-live/hsci … 5.smi]NASA Earth Science live webcast
10:00a.m. – 12:00p.m.
Witnesses:
Mr. Alphonso V. Diaz, Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate, NASA;
Dr. Berrien Moore III, Director, Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans, and Space, University of New Hampshire;
Dr. Tim Killeen, Director, National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colorado;
Dr. Marcia McNutt, President and Chief Executive Officer, Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute, Moss Landing, California;
Dr. Sean Solomon, Director, Department of Terrestrial Magnetism, Carnegie Institution of Washington; and
Dr. Ray Williamson, Research Professor, Space Policy Institute, The George Washington University
http://www.house.gov/science/press/109/109-65.htm] TOPIC OF CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGs to be NASA EARTH SCIENCE PROGRAMS

I don't want NASA to be a single mission agency either. But, for that to happen, they do need the funding so they can do more than one project or mission at a time.

Larry,

SpaceNut · 2005-04-29 09:14:50

Maybe it is just time to spilt nasa up into the goals for which these mission are for.

These are some of them:
Nasa aeronatics (x43 and other planes)

Nasa robotic space science and exploration (mars rovers, casini)

Nasa Manned space science and exploration (ISS apollo from the past, future places)

Nasa earth science (tsunami warning, global warning)

Nasa solar system science (voyager, pioneer, and telescope use)

Nasa exosolar science (Telescopes infrared, UV and visible maybe someday robotic probes)

Nasa Space vehicle research:
Of course some utilize the vehicles from on group to the other with modifications as needed.

Give each there own budget and let each fight for what they need seperate from the other.

SpaceNut · 2005-08-15 09:46:51

Well with any new direction there is bound to be changes that not all staff will enjoy or tollerate and includes be cancelled, down sized or fired and reassigned.
With that there has also been changes to the roadmaps.
National Research Council (NRC) Space Studies Board Report: Review of Goals and Plans for NASA's Space and Earth Sciences

The main sources of gaps and potential missed opportunities in some roadmaps are a shortage of scientific justification for their stated goals and an overly narrow interpretation of the presidential vision by the NASA roadmap teams. If science in pursuit of the exploration vision is to be aligned with the priorities set forth by the scientific community in NRC decadal strategy reports, it will be essential for NASA to embrace the broadly based science program that has been recommended by the 2004 report of the President's Commission on Implementation of United States Space Policy and the 2005 Space Studies Board report "Science in NASA's Vision for Space Exploration".

There must be more roadmaps than these:

NASA Roadmap for the Robotic and Human Exploration of Mars
NASA Solar System Exploration Strategic Roadmap
NASA Strategic Roadmap: The Search for Earth-like Planets
NASA Strategic Roadmap: Sun - Solar System Connection
NASA Earth Science and Applications from Space Strategic Roadmap: Exploring our Planet for the Benefit of Society
NASA Science Strategic Roadmap: Universe Exploration: From the Big Bang to Life

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-08-15 20:53:49

The 100,000 figure originally was cooked up by a hypra-leftist author in a British journal

Under the Geneva Conventions, cluster bombs are criminal weapons because it is impossible to use them in significant numbers without indiscriminate effects.
Massive Ordnance Air Burst (MOAB) bomb were very successful in mass killings.
The bomb, nicknamed the "mother of all bombs," is officially known as the Massive Ordnance Air Blast. It replaces the Vietnam-era "Daisy Cutter," a 15,000-pound bomb with 12,600 pounds of the less-powerful GSX explosives.
The bomblets are bright yellow and look like beer cans. And because they look like playthings, thousands of children have been killed by dormant bomblets in Afghanistan, Kuwait and Iraq. Each bomblet sprays flying shards of metal that can tear through a quarter inch of steel.
Although U.S. forces sought to limit what they call "collateral damage" in the Iraq campaign, they defied international criticism and used nearly 10,800 cluster weapons; their British allies used almost 2,200.
Human Rights Watch reports that thousands of Kuwaiti and Iraqi civilians have been killed, many more injured, by explosive duds following the Persian Gulf war.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq … over_x.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/ … moab.gulf/

Stormrage · 2005-08-16 09:25:21

You are a unpatriotic

Is he? Maybe he doesn't want his country to go war for false reason. Maybe he doesn't want his country to go war for financial reasons. What gives America the right to be the bully? What gives America the right to keep 7,000 operational nuclear warheads and 3,000 reserve warheads yet try to stop other countries from developing their own.

It's a hypocritical world :cry:

SpaceNut · 2005-08-16 09:46:18

yup that is what happens when you become the worlds police force...

Rxke · 2005-08-16 10:17:07

For fuck sake, people!!!!

There's a politics section in free chat, use it, and stop going off on a tangent all the time!
:evil:

SpaceNut · 2005-08-26 11:02:10

Well the debate on what is science continues:
Cosmic log:

The tumult over science and politics continues this week over a wide spectrum: For example, more states are thinking about breaking away from the Bush administration's policy on climate change, and there's yet another warning about warming in the Arctic.

Sounds more political than ever...

publiusr · 2005-08-26 14:30:55

Yep. Friedman and the toy-robots crowd should have learned their lesson. When you don't care about launch vehicles--it bites you--as in the Volna.

EuroLauncher · 2006-03-11 21:27:24

The CEV and Shuttle look like they are going ahead, they got their money.

however

Mars smaple mission - MSR looks delayed
the Dawn Discovery mission seems to be cancelled
The outrigger Keck telescopes are gone.
MTO is dead
NASA has dropped the Methane-Engine from CEV
LISA and Constellation-X will be delayed indefinitely
Europa probe is getting axed
Mars research has been cut by $243.3 million to $700.2 million

publiusr · 2006-03-15 13:58:10

We got enough things going to Mars. It isn't as if those programs with never take place.

In the 30-40 years between the liquid ICBM programs and the EELVs meant to replace them as LVs, how many different aircraft have been fielded?

Okay--in the quarter century since STS first flew--how many manned spacecraft have been built? Now--how many robotic probes have been launched in 25 years?

So I don't want to hear any more of this misleading talk about how NASA doesn't spent enough on aviation and robotic--because that is a lie.

GCNRevenger · 2006-03-15 19:23:10

The CEV and Shuttle look like they are going ahead, they got their money.

however
Mars smaple mission - MSR looks delayed
the Dawn Discovery mission seems to be cancelled
The outrigger Keck telescopes are gone.
MTO is dead
NASA has dropped the Methane-Engine from CEV
LISA and Constellation-X will be delayed indefinitely
Europa probe is getting axed
Mars research has been cut by $243.3 million to $700.2 million

Unless Congress forks over a rather large increase in the budget, NASA has no business putting much effort into preparing for Mars in addition to Shuttle/ISS, and Lunar/CEV programs. Pick two, and only two.

Mars sample return doesn't need to be executed right now, and when we really start thinking Mars technology should not be difficult nor time consuming to develop.

Mars Telecommunications Orbiter will probobly outlive its design life before manned missions would arrive if we were to send it to Mars any time soon, and being powerd by whimpy solar arrays would have a hard time matching the next Mars Science Rovers' nuclear powerd communication system.

Likewise, the CEV doesn't need a Methane engine. Even if the stock CEV is used as the Earth reentry vehicle following a Mars mission it won't need a Methane engine. A Methane engine has little or no bennefit for missions to LEO or the Moon either, and infact probobly wouldn't work as well. NASA must make the CEV work, and do so without signifigant delay nor being over budget, and building a brand new engine isn't worth the risk of it delaying or making the CEV exceed its advertised price tag.

Outrigger Keck AND Hubble? LISA and Constellation-X? Just how much of NASA's budget can the astronomers demand before being satisfied? How much should they be getting? And is astronomy all NASA's business and not the Nat'l Science Foundation et al? Astronomers will keep on coming up with new and more and bigger and better space & surface telescopes forever, and we are supposed to cry and curse NASA when some of them are turned down?

The Dawn mission was cut because the builders could not keep costs under control, a half billion dollar mission turned into a one billion dollar mission. It has been far too long since NASA held its project managers accountable for incompetant or fraudulent estimates of the price. If you can't estimate the cost of your space probe to within 100%, then you have no business building space probes. Also, hopefully this will finally put the space probe/space telescope/space science people on notice, that if you can't deliver, then no longer will NASA sigh and bail you out - no, if you can't deliver, then the mission you have so emotionally invested in won't fly... Now if only they would do that for manned flight systems more often.

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#26 2005-04-15 23:32:35

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#27 2005-04-16 01:25:32

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#28 2005-04-16 10:09:52

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#29 2005-04-16 11:23:12

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#30 2005-04-16 14:29:11

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#31 2005-04-16 15:25:48

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#32 2005-04-16 16:02:05

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#33 2005-04-16 16:22:12

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#34 2005-04-16 17:04:09

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#35 2005-04-16 19:48:10

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#36 2005-04-16 20:48:54

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#37 2005-04-28 08:43:42

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#38 2005-04-29 05:35:09

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#39 2005-04-29 08:05:38

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#40 2005-04-29 09:14:50

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#41 2005-08-15 09:46:51

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#42 2005-08-15 20:53:49

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#43 2005-08-16 09:25:21

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#44 2005-08-16 09:46:18

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

#45 2005-08-16 10:17:07

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#46 2005-08-26 11:02:10

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#47 2005-08-26 14:30:55

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#48 2006-03-11 21:27:24

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#49 2006-03-15 13:58:10

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#50 2006-03-15 19:23:10

Re: Selling out Mars and Science?

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