Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

Ian · 2005-08-12 16:35:54

I am against the Human Exploration of Mars if only a few people could go instead of ordinary and calling someone ordinary is segragating them from people who are considered not ordinary and I think that treating Astronauts the way that people are treating them as people who are somehow better than everyone else and I think that people who want to treat a small number of people as somehow better than someone else to me is somehow ELITIST and it's also discrimination against people. I also don't want any class system to be on Mars if humans actually go there and set up a society. I think that a "CLASS" system of stratification or any stratification is oppression and that it shouldn't happen if anyone trys to build a colony on Mars. I don't want there to be a class system like there was on the Titanic in 1912. Back then, people were segragated into CASTS and I don't want people to do that in today's society especially on airplanes. I think that airplanes shouldn't have any Class Seperation. People should pay for an airplane by giving the airplane company the same amount of money for services on the airplane that everyone else pays. The back and the front of an airplane should be the same with no Classes. I don't want just "A FEW" to be able to go to Mars. I want it to be everyone and I don't like the companies that are sending just the Rich and the "FEW" into space.

Grypd · 2005-08-12 16:41:32

So you want us to send incredibly massive spacecraft filled with thousands of people just to have a look around mars.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN and anybody with common sense will tell you why still it is a laudible goal but we can only send a few people to look around for us first and hopefully learn enough to prepare the way for the eventual colonisation of Earths sister.

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-12 17:08:34

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect textbook example of a classic, collectivist, Communist. The genuine article, who believes that the precepts of Communism should be enforced both economically and socially. You'd think after a whole century of failure, they would learn...

"any stratification is oppression"

"ELITIST and it's also discrimination against people"

Since it is obviously not possible for everyone who wants to go to Mars to be able to because of the MASSIVE logistical expense, and since only government, persons of wealth, or persons selected by private entities of wealth could afford to do such a thing, it therefore seems to me that they should decide who goes based on the maximum bennefit to who pays the rocket bill.

Since most are not ultra-wealthy nor have the support of fabulously wealthy corporations, that pretty much leaves the government as the only one who might pay much money. So, the bennefits in question should be the ones that bennefit the citizens of said country, such as inspiraiton, knowledge, and eventual seeding of colonies. The persons who have the best skills to accomplish such goals typically are scientists, engineers, medical doctors, and pilots... astronauts selected for these rolls therefore should have these skills, in addition to being physically and mentally suitable for spaceflight.

Since most people do not have such skills, quite a few lack the mental suitability, and some lack the physical stability, therefore not that many people will have the opportunity to go. Persons who have these skills in abundance and can meet the riggors of mind and body are therefore "elite" space farers, and since these things are most valued for space travel, other people who do not are indeed discriminated against.

"Stratification" and "eliteism" are natural consequences that not everyone is the same. I have skills in chemistry, physics, and a bit of math but other people have skills in biology and medicine or engineering and piloting. More generally, different people have different talents and abilities to contribute to society, and quite often some abilities are more useful to society then others... and these persons who are more demanded, are similarly more rewarded. Thats about all there is to it, and there is nothing inherintly wrong or immoral about this fact of socioeconomics.

Of course you don't want to accept this since you are a Communist, but that is the way things are, as bound by the limits or our technology and the (as far as we know) immutable laws of physics. Grow up. Get over it.

srmeaney · 2005-08-12 17:23:25

On the contrary,

Ian is meerly insulted by the inequality and elitism of civilization and recognises the need for something of equal benifit to all...Welcome Recruit!

Another potential Space Commonwealth citizen. Yay!

Mars Suits are going to require a wetwall layer that can be replaced every so often (Possibly a yeast bacteria layer).

John Creighton · 2005-08-12 17:37:47

Maybe we should all live like poor people and then everyone will be equal and know one will be oppressed.

Perhaps airplanes are a sign of access and everyone should take the train.

And of course we should mandate that 50% of a persons diet comes from beans.

P.S. Ever see the movie Dr. Cavago.

srmeaney · 2005-08-12 17:48:12

Mars Colonists against Tourism!

Keep the Tourists out!

Mars for Ethical People only!

Oops, looks like I'm the only one who qualifies!

Oh God! I am the Elite!

Hides head in shame...

Ian · 2005-08-13 05:49:54

I am not a communist or a capatilist because I think that both social systems have problems but I also think that socialism has some problems too, but I think that in all cultures therer is some form of discrimination because usually there are going to be people who are afraid of including those who are different into a democracy and I'm just against discriminatoin and I am for equality.

Ian · 2005-08-13 05:52:57

Also, who supports where it says in the Declaration of Independance that all men are created Equal. Of course I am for the rights of women and back then there was only a small women's rights movement starting. I am just one of those men who supports the equality of women and everybody.

Ian · 2005-08-13 05:54:21

How do I put in my gender into the message board?

srmeaney · 2005-08-13 05:58:40

I think you do it somewhere in profile...

Ian · 2005-08-13 08:10:57

"Stratification" and "eliteism" are natural consequences that not everyone is the same. I have skills in chemistry, physics, and a bit of math but other people have skills in biology and medicine or engineering and piloting. More generally, different people have different talents and abilities to contribute to society, and quite often some abilities are more useful to society then others... and these persons who are more demanded, are similarly more rewarded. Thats about all there is to it, and there is nothing inherintly wrong or immoral about this fact of socioeconomics.

So basically, you support kicking those who don't know much out on the street and not giving them an education and you also probably support forcing these people to work against their will for food and basic resources? I think that everybody should be able to get an education and it's possible to be an engineer and also a philosopher although I am not an engineer, I could be a lot of things all at once if I got degrees in everything. Are you against democracy and equality? Are you one of those people who want to attack equality and the ideals that the people who founded the United States believed in? People like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine and everyone else who created this country supported ideals like everyone being equal and eventually because of what they did a lot of civil rights movements started all over the world and now everybody is struggling to see everyone as an equal even though they have different backgrounds or different kinds of knowledge. I support equality do you?

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-13 08:49:10

See, this is what is called taking the logic to the absurd extreme...

If we are talking about who gets to be an astronaut and who doesn't, I most certainly do not believe in perfect, blind equality. In fact, I staunchly oppose total equality for all job requirements private or public: the whole point the founding fathers was that people have the same basic rights, but having a job isn't one of them. People have equal rights but people are not equal in every respect since people are different, and if one job requires abilities you don't have, thats too bad. Picking astronauts by lottery would be a completly stupid thing for NASA to do.

I really think you are taking the concept of equality to an stupid extent, which is most certainly not what the founding fathers had in mind by any stretch of the imagination, that the government is obligated to give everyone equal billing reguardless of personal ability in everything. You are reading into what they said, that since the founding fathers were not stupid, they would not have advocated something so silly. It is not racist nor eliteist to place standards and what people can do for a particular job.

Also life-long free eduation would be a swell thing, but in the same vein as space travel, education is expensive and it is economically unfeasable to give everyone all the money needed to be educated as much as they want the way they want indefiantly. You shouldn't be given an unlimited free ride to school so you can collect enough degrees to get into the astronaut corp, since that would mean someone else couldn't go to school that wants to.

Ian · 2005-08-13 09:18:43

People have equal rights but people are not equal in every respect since people are different, and if one job requires abilities you don't have, thats too bad. Picking astronauts by lottery would be a completly stupid thing for NASA to do.

Anybody can do anything if they put their mind to it. Also, people can teach themselves and also, I don't support your philosophy of not giving everyone equal access to an education. This is probably why there is compulsory education for all young people. People like you shouldn't be allowed to stop people from getting an education. The collages in Pennsylvania are against discrimination and they support diversity in their collages. You are saying that you would try to stop people from getting an education. I think that it should be a human right to have an education and people like you shouldn't stop everyone from being educated. Since education is the path to freedom. Do you support freedom? If you don't support equal access to education, then you don't support democracy and that shoudln't be tolerated. There should be a law saying that everyone should be educated and I think that it is a law.

Dook · 2005-08-13 09:29:32

Like it or not people are not equal. I can't hit a baseball like Sammy Sosa but I can afford a first class seat in an airplane anytime I want, I just choose not to because to me the cost doesn't equal the benefit.

Would you put a 9 year old in the pilot seat of a space shuttle?

What about a blind person?

What about someone who is a diabetic? Would you send them to mars and have them depend on shipments of insulin from earth?

Would you hire someone who can't do Algebra to teach Mathematics at Harvard?

People are not equal for everything.

I think what you mean to say is that people all have the same basic worth.

Ian · 2005-08-13 09:44:01

All of these arguments are from people who don't support democracy. You try to come up with all of these arguments against compulsory education and public education and free schools and everyone having access to books. I am in philadelphia and here, everyone is givin a chance to have an education.

Ian · 2005-08-13 09:47:46

People who don't support democracy are TYRANTS and AUTOCRATS who think that literacy, learning adn books and newspapers are somehow dangerous, but it's all about who has power over others and TYRANTS and AUTOCRATS are afraid of losing their power over others. So they come up with arguments that are against all froms of education and you protest agianst equality because you are afraid that you will lose power.

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-13 11:25:16

Wow, a real "pot to kettle: you are black" moment... being called a anti-democratic tyrant by a communist, how ironic.

Minimum baseline education for everyone such that they can function in society (basic math, reading, etc) is affordable enough that society should pay for it. However, secondary education is a different matter, as it is not nessesarry to be a gainfully employable citizen and is inhertinly more expensive due to the scarcity of experts combined with more difficult subject matter, is too expensive to just give away for free blindly. If someone takes more then their fair share by seeking multiple degrees or they are unable to reasonably make use of said education (by passing tests to show they get it), then this reasource should be reallocated to another person who can use it better. Quite simple really.

"Anybody can do anything if they put their mind to it"

No. In my line or work, I have seen dozens and perhaps hundreds of people who just aren't cut out to learn chemistry, reguardless if they put a sufficent amount of effort into accomplishing that goal. If you aren't cut out for it, then burning another $10,000 or more of public funds is $10,000 that didn't go to someone who could accomplish the course of study.

"they support diversity in their collages"

Ah, so you would then discriminate against non-minority students just because of their ethnicity? My, how... hypocritical

Stormrage · 2005-08-13 11:35:18

Do you want to be an Astronaut? Join the Air Force.

John Creighton · 2005-08-13 12:47:57

Forgive me for glossing over a lot in this thread but there seems so little here worth reading. The concept of equality and jealousy vastly different. Equality would say either when looking at a handicap person and say either A they have the right to climb the stairs and they just can't or B require the building to be accessible to handicap people via ramps and elevators. Jealousy would say it is not fair that the able person can walk and the handicap person can't so we should all be bound to wheelchairs so we are all equal.

Equality would say I am allowed to spend the money I earn on a nice car. Jealousy would say there should be no cars nicer then each other and any car that is too nice should be turned into scrap mettle so we have no nicer cars. Equality would say I am allowed to paint my self I nice picture. Jealousy would say if the picture is too nice it should be defaced so it is not beyond the quality of a picture anyone else can obtain. Equality would say I am I am allowed to score as many points in a sports game as I can. Jealousy would say that I cannot score any more points until everyone on the team had the right to score the same number of points as I had already scored.

I can go on and on with these absurdities but anyone who would deference Jealousy in the name of equality has there ideas so messed up that I don't know if it makes any difference. I'll end with one last example, if someone is not as attractive as someone else then the less more attractive person should be made uglier so we can all be made equal. :rol: Maybe we should all be forced fed so know one feels fat. Maybe we should get rid of books so know one feels dumb. I just can't comprehend how anyone would think such a position is rational.

Ian · 2005-08-13 13:14:47

Ah, so you would then discriminate against non-minority students just because of their ethnicity? My, how... hypocritica.

I don't discriminate against non-minority students just because of their ethnicity. I also just would like to end this argument and get on with life. I also would like to get back on to the topic of Human Exploration of Mars. Which is what this Fourum is about. Talking about politics is for another board.

GCNRevenger · 2005-08-13 15:43:37

I don't discriminate against non-minority students just because of their ethnicity. I also just would like to end this argument and get on with life. I also would like to get back on to the topic of Human Exploration of Mars. Which is what this Fourum is about. Talking about politics is for another board.

Really? But that is exactly what pro-diversity admissions "defacto" does, as it values one student over another for no reason whatsoever but their ethnicity. You cannot be both pro-diversity and pro-equality, as the two are mutually exclusive when applied to individual students, which it will inevitibly be.

I do think that is your name on the first post of this thread, Ian.

Grypd · 2005-08-14 14:18:38

Basic education is the right of every citizen this is the benefit of an advanced society giving its citizens a chance to be what they can be. But citizens are not equal some people are brighter than the others and this will always be the case. But should we reduce the quality of the higher educations provided by colleges and universities so that everyone has a chance to graduate. NO this would simply make the graduation and the certificates worthless.

So a secondary education is something that should be available to those who have the ability but not the cash but it should be that there ability gives them the chance. In space we should send our best this is so that we can gain the most out of what is an expensive proposition and that is why the best are needed. Everyone should have a chance to be that astronaut but they should have to fight the competition to be that astronaut. When space becomes cheaper it has to be noted more people can go but they will still have to fight for that space and prove they are worthy of the chalenge.

John Creighton · 2005-08-14 15:37:17

Basic education is the right of every citizen this is the benefit of an advanced society giving its citizens a chance to be what they can be. But citizens are not equal some people are brighter than the others and this will always be the case. But should we reduce the quality of the higher educations provided by colleges and universities so that everyone has a chance to graduate. NO this would simply make the graduation and the certificates worthless.
So a secondary education is something that should be available to those who have the ability but not the cash but it should be that there ability gives them the chance. In space we should send our best this is so that we can gain the most out of what is an expensive proposition and that is why the best are needed. Everyone should have a chance to be that astronaut but they should have to fight the competition to be that astronaut. When space becomes cheaper it has to be noted more people can go but they will still have to fight for that space and prove they are worthy of the chalenge.

Can you really judge ability from a highschool education to decide the best university candidates. A lot of people that are not too bight excel at highschool because they know how to give the teacher exactly what they what well some very bright people can’t be bothered with stupid busy work that they don’t get much out of because the work is repetitive and unchallenging and taught towards the lowest common denominator. Also some people can be incredibly gifted in one area but don’t do well in high school because they lack intrest in the other areas that they aren’t as strong in.

Grypd · 2005-08-14 15:43:12

this is the domain of independent tests and the ability for continous testing and whole year marks to show what a candidate is truly worth.

Not a hundred percent accurate but then again what is in this world

kaci_m · 2005-08-30 15:03:49

Everyone can eventually go to Mars, just not all at once. The first people who will go to Mars will obviously be people who are able to contribute most to whatever is needed on Mars (likely people trained in science or mechanics). Given the small size of the initial spacecrafts (and food supplies), the first crews will be people who are selected to be the most competent and in the best physical health. This, like every other successful exploration effort, is to ensure the survival of the crew and the success of the mission, and any compromise in this would make the mission fail, or, worse, cause the death of the crew, thus probably stopping every other Mars mission from happening.

As time goes on and an infrastructure is built up, other members of society can go too, if they either have enough money, educate themselves in skills that other colonists would find valuable, and/or form a group that can raise the funds for the trip. This is how the New World was populated; Traders, people skilled in making or repairing tools or other goods, the families of those involved, religious groups, and, yes, even impoverished peoples such as the Irish and the various Asian groups eventually were able to settle and thrive in the Americas.

In the end, I imagine the only people who couldn't go to Mars would be those who are physically unable to make the trip or those unable to come up with the money to go to Mars, either on their own or through a government and/or private sponsorship. I expect a wide variety of people from all walks of life to eventually populate Mars, not because they were selected for their different ethnicities/backgrounds by some politically correct "somebody", but because they simply wanted to and so found a way to make it happen.

-KCM

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#1 2005-08-12 16:35:54

Re: Against the Human Exploration of Mars if Everyone can't go.

#2 2005-08-12 16:41:32

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#17 2005-08-13 11:25:16

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#19 2005-08-13 12:47:57

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#20 2005-08-13 13:14:47

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#21 2005-08-13 15:43:37

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#22 2005-08-14 14:18:38

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