Thought Experiment II - Moral dilema

clark · 2002-11-04 09:47:49

Imagine you and another person are locked in a room. There are no windows, and no doors. There is a small faucet that dispenses water from one wall, a hole that disposes of refuse, and another hole where food appears (which consists of the bare minimum to keep you alive and it tasteless).

A sign on one wall tells you that you and the other individual are trapped in this room forever. There is no escape, ever. You will be kept here until you are dead.

The other person with you does not wih to live under these conditions, so wishes to kill themselves. However, they need you to either help them kill themselves, or refrain from saving their lives if they attempt to kill themselves.

What do you do?

Palomar · 2002-11-04 10:59:02

Imagine you and another person are locked in a room. There are no windows, and no doors.

*How could anyone get into such a room in the first place, which has neither doors nor windows? ???

clark · 2002-11-04 11:02:43

There is a hole in the ceiling from which you were dropped into the room- the hole is 20 feet up, and there is no way of reaching it (even if you stand on each other)- even if you could, the hole is covered up and sealed shut.

Please try to deal with the context of the dilema instead of poking useless holes in the structure of the set-up. Thanks.

Byron · 2002-11-04 14:00:27

If this situation is as truly hopeless as you have outlined above, yes, I would allow that person to kill him/herself...and then I would find a way to take my own life...which would probably consist of just refusing to eat...

The reason for this is because there is no hope, at all of ever getting out...so dying of extreme boredom after ten years really makes no difference than if you die today in that horrible place...

B

clark · 2002-11-04 14:07:12

Would you help them kill themself?

Would you answer the same if books or games were made available to you, yet you could not leave?

Josh Cryer · 2002-11-04 14:13:14

Actually clark, it's necessary to define a problem as best you can. Someone once asked me, ?Would you be bored in an empty room?? I'm sure you can guess my answer to that! It's just that without a strict definition, other answers are plausible, and we can't give a fully informed answer. What if it was a trick question? What if the walls to the room were two inches tall? It could certainly be possible!

In that case, I would simply step over the wall.

But to answer the question you were going for (which still needs to be defined more). I would certainly try to convince them not to kill themselves. I mean, you didn't say that we were in there for any extended period. For all I know, we just got there! How could I let someone kill themselves simply because someone is pulling a silly prank on us and is going to let us out the next day? A sign tells me nothing. Such a situation would be very weird. Sure, we may be stuck there forever, but how do we know that until we've at least waited it out, to see what was up?

Assuming we were there an extended period of time, and all hope was lost, I would let them kill themselves. And I would help them. Then eat their body since I haven't had meat in a long time.

Byron · 2002-11-04 14:17:50

"Helping" the person to kill themself is really the same as murder...no, I do not think I would go that far, even if they begged for me to...that person would have to go about it his/her own way, such as going on a hunger strike.

The deal with the books / games...that's an added consideration that does change the nature of the original scenario, and would likely make me want me to live (as well as attempting to convince the other person to not killing themself.)...as least for a time. One can pass an awfully lot of time by reading books, and having a partner to play games with would while away the endless hours as well.

However, at some point...six months, a year, or even five years...I think I would be so overcome by depression that I would no longer want to live...so at some point I may become suicidal, as well being more conducive to not interfering with the other person's desire to terminate their life.

B

clark · 2002-11-04 14:38:54

I understand the need for a clearly defined problem, and I am trying to provide as much detail as I believe is neccessary. That being said, I tend to see "avoidance" at work when I am asked to define particulars regarding the siituation that ultimetly have no effect on the overall situation... ie, knowing how exactly you were deposited into a room with no doors and no windows (yadda yadda yadda) does not help determine how you will act in the current sitaution of being trapped with someone who choses to kill themself.

I also do not want to define the situation so much that all parties agree that there is only one acceptable solution- i am leaving thes eopen ended for a bit of interpretation (just like life) where it is mroe a matter of how you perceive the problem- not the actual probelm itself.... but maybe I am saying to much.

Josh Cryer · 2002-11-04 14:51:00

As it is, it does propose some interesting problems, though. How do you dispose of the body? Surely the hole in which waste exists isn't big enough for a body. So it would decay in the worst possible way. Being in a room with a dead body could be worse than being in there alone!

This is why I joked about eating the body. To me, such a solution would be the only way I could handle the situation. And even then, I would have to be way freaking out of it.

And I think that this ?avoidance? is just a natural reaction to your famous philosophical proposals, clark. We luv ya.

clark · 2002-11-04 15:18:41

Actually, the whole issue of body disposal is something that I thought I would leave for each person to consider, or to even consider at all.

Byron, are you willing to accept watching someone else kill themselves in front of you?

If you think that this situation is to bizarre to contemplate, imagine death row.

So here is an interesting side question, should the State make any attempt to prevent those on death row from killing themselves?

And thanks Josh for the love. I enjoy your optimism, no matter how misguided.

Byron · 2002-11-04 15:41:28

Byron, are you willing to accept watching someone else kill themselves in front of you?

I'm no more willing to watch them die in front of me than I would to accept the risk of being strangled to death during the night because I interfered with that's person's desire to kill themself.

As for the body...I'm assuming that little robots would come in during the night while I was sleeping to cut the corspe up in little peices and cart it away... :0

should the State make any attempt to prevent those on death row from killing themselves?

Should people with no possibility of ever getting out of prison be allowed to kill themselves? I've thought of this type of thing before...I guess the way the State chooses to see it..you're being punished for a crime, and you must serve that punishment, so no getting out easy by suicide. As for me, I'm not too terribly sure about this...after all, murder can be easily be dressed up to look like suicide...so I guess it's better to leave the "no suicide" policy alone..even in Death Row, but then again...

B

Josh Cryer · 2002-11-04 17:00:02

Life in prison isn't exactly a guarenteed thing. Laws outside the prison can change, or society could change, and reform could happen. Therefore, I could possibly get out in the future, no matter how slim the chances. So sure, I don't see a problem with letting someone kill themselves in prison. As long as they are informed of the situation and know that they can still have a relatively fullfilling life while there.

Palomar · 2002-11-04 18:39:07

*Introducing a few believable specifics into Clark's scenario: A loaded pistol has been put into the room where I and the other person are imprisoned. The other person is an adult, has 2 hands, 10 fingers, fine motor skills, and is of average intelligence [IQ 90 or above].

I would -not- take this person's life. That would have to be
-their own- decision and via -their own- action.

I wouldn't ask him/her to shoot me in order to prevent a slow and horrible death via starvation [provided I'm capable of carrying out that action of my own accord], and I likewise would not fulfill said request from them.

Of course, someone could ask "Well, what if the other person is paraplegic and can't pull the trigger? Or has an IQ of 65? Or has had both hands amputated?, etc., etc." My answer to that would be that I'd have to actually be in those alternative situation to know what I would or would not do, and why.

Otherwise, the situation I outlined and my response holds. I'd better add that I wouldn't shoot myself unless it were for certain there was -no- getting out of the situation, I'd carefully taken any possible alternatives into consideration, had waited a few days [in hopes of rescue, finding a way out somehow, etc.]...and then the only other alternative were death via starvation [which is a very painful, horrible death]. In anticipation of Clark asking how I could shoot myself instead of allowing myself to starve to death: What's to ask? Only a self-hating idiot would willfully chose to put themselves through weeks of suffering and torment when a quick and painless "out" is available, when there are just these two options.

Since you're trying to feel out our morals and scruples, Clark, I sure would be interested in reading what -you- would do and why.

--Cindy

P.S.: As for your response to Byron, to wit: "Byron, are you willing to accept watching someone else kill themselves in front of you?" [I love it when Clark makes statements like these, -as if- it's Byron's fault he and the other person are in this predicament, and thus bears some sort of responsibility for the predicament, when in fact they are both victims of some sadistic plan]. Well, the other alternative is to have to watch the other person slowly starve to death and die a horrible, malignering death, as if that's somehow a better alternative. Checkmate.

clark · 2002-11-05 08:51:41

Checkmate? lol. Okay Cindy, you win.

I would not allow the person to kill themselves, and I would not help them kill themselves.

For better or worse, we are both stuck in this room together, and I find the prospect of being alone in the room a lesser choice than being in the room with someone, anyone else (save Carrot Top, then I would shoot)

As Josh pointed out, we don't know how long we have been there- so allowing someone to immediatly off themselves would be rash. Also, allowing someone to kill themself is to say there is no hope- that implies that the future is knowable.

We could be stuck in this room for a very long time, maybe forever, or we could not. That is the options, no?

Of course this assumption operates from "perspective"- how we see the situation, or more precisely, how we CHOOSE to see the situation. That's the whole point of these moral dilemas- that's the whole crux of any dilema- it is a matter of perspective.

I set up a pretty hopeless situation, and so many chose to see that hopeless situation- yet I also set it up so that you could entertain "hope" since your basic needs for life are being met.

I can choose to hope that I will find a way out. And from a practical standpoint, I might need help, so allowing someone who wants to throw in the towel to off themselves limits my options in the future.

How people choose to off themselves is of no great concern- however you get there, you're there in the end.

Maybe after a few years, I would decide otherwise- yet when I decide otherwise, it is only becuase I choose not to allow hope into the equation.

Maybe my version of hope is different than yours- many people, presented with bleak futures struggle and persever- just as many give up- what is the difference?

PS- And as for my question "how can you watch someone kill themselves...", it was an honest question becuase the thought of watching someone take their own life in front of me is rather disturbing- try imagining it- I didn't enjoy the thought, so I would think contemplating the treality to be a bit gruesome- I don't know if I COULD watch or allow someone to do that in this situation.

HeloTeacher · 2002-11-22 15:15:49

Survive and attempt escape, no matter how protracted.

Encourage my fellow to help, try to prevent suicide to a point. Not to the point where I am risking my own murder.

CalTech2010 · 2002-12-06 23:35:45

This is one tough cookie. I couldn't stand living in close quarters with a psycho-suicidal person. I'd fear for my own life, but at the same time I couldn't kill another human being for no apparent reason. I think it's easier to answer this question in a room with windows and stimuli, than if you were actually going insane in a cell.

I think there are some other questions that are more interesting. If the person was the same sex as you, would you become homosexual after a while? If the person was the opposite sex, would you resort to rape? Would you try to steal food from your prison-mate? Would you begin to fight with them over simple things, like becoming extremely territorial?

I had a similar question I though about for a long time:

You are stuck in an endless void, stretching out into blank whiteness for as far as you can see. There are no landmarks in the void whatsoever. Completely barren. The ambient light that illuminates this void comes from somewhere that you can't exactly tell; the light just is. You are never hungry, for some reason, and because this void is empty, you think that escape is impossible.

Personally, I think ANYONE would go crazy. Imagine having no landmarks to judge movement by. You could in theory just be trapped in an 8-foot cube and be running in place. Even staring off into the distance would be horrible. Nothing to occupy your thoughts...

:0 :0 :0 :0 :0 :0

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#1 2002-11-04 09:47:49

Re: Thought Experiment II - Moral dilema

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