STS-114 Mission Coverage and Discussion

Grypd · 2005-07-27 17:35:53

Apparently as the Shuttle was taking off it had a bird strike. This may have happened before but has never been seen and the area the bird collided with the main fuel tank is thought to be where the foam debris came from. They are not sure if it is related but it is one possibility.

Still this really does sound bad for the shuttle and this glitch will hamper the US space program for at least 6 months if not longer. It also spells considerable trouble for the ISS and certainly dooms any plan to rescue the Hubble.

srmeaney · 2005-07-27 17:44:59

Actually, I thought the Colour Cam Mounted on the Fuel tank was pretty cool, If only they had left a small square in the corner of the screen broadcasting as it drifted off from the shuttle.

RE keeping the foam on

How about a nylon sock? Incompetent idiots With this kind of workmanship, We will have to contract out Mars colonization to the Russians.

srmeaney · 2005-07-27 17:54:09

Apparently as the Shuttle was taking off it had a bird strike. This may have happened before but has never been seen and the area the bird collided with the main fuel tank is thought to be where the foam debris came from. They are not sure if it is related but it is one possibility.

That wasnt from those "Circling Vultures" was it?

Rxke · 2005-07-27 17:54:27

Sick joke indeed.

You hear that rumble? That's the sound of heads rolling....

Oh boy is ISS in trouble.
Do they have any mayor budget to be okayed soon? I can hear certain senators screaming to stop it all already.

Rxke · 2005-07-27 17:56:38

While we're at it:

Scenario: imagine it turns out that heattile at the wheelbay *is* a problem...

What then? The other shuttles are grounded!!!!

BWhite · 2005-07-27 18:09:10

From spaceflight.now

2238 GMT (6:38 p.m. EDT)
Is the shuttle program done launching for 2005?
Parsons: "I can't say what the impact of this is." Shuttles can't fly with this large size foam coming off, he added. The problem must be dealt with before the next launch can occur.
Plans had called for Atlantis to launch September 9.

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-27 18:32:01

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com … yRH9k3yGmg--

Lets see if the link works...

What you are looking at fellow space fanatics, is as I take it, a picture of the fuel tank taken by Shuttle shortly after seperation. Notice that it is in a "straight" spot, and hence must be part of the Hydrogen tank below the interstage, hence the talk of a birdstrike being the cause is impossible. It gets better:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/63756main_PAL_FACT_SHEET.pdf

*Clears throat:* "The External Tank Project Office has re-evaluated the existing design of the tank’s protuberance air load ramps -- known as PAL ramps – because the ramps, which consist of thick, manually sprayed layers of foam, could, if liberated, become a source of debris... NASA plans to fly the next tank, ET 120, with the current design configuration. Three redesign options under consideration for future flights include elimination of the ramps; reducing the ramps to “mini” ramps, about one-third the size of the present ramps; or building a trailing edge “fence” on the back side of the cable tray."

So lets see here... NASA knew that this was a problem spot, which came a few feet from destroying Discovery, and what did they do about it? They planned an upgrade for sometime in the future. Pah.

Listen up NASA, I will let you in on a little secret... you know that orange crap that you cover the external tank with? The whole thing is a weak spot. Get a clue, zero foam shedding! None, nadda, zip! Shuttle managers, don't you dare scurry back to Michoud and just fix this one spot, you come up with a new way to really stop foam shedding or you never fly any vehicle ever again, and you do it FAST.

This is rediculus... When are you going to start acting like competant rocket scientists again and stop plugging holes in the dike with chewing gum and calling it good?

KSC and Houston may have "changed," but somebody at Michoud forget that they need to stop the kind of thinking that caused Challenger and Columbia? Maybe someone ought to send them some of Columbia's crew personal items and family pictures as a little reminder. *MAD*

Edit: That looks like the same tank as the old design, but is that definatly the "ET120" model or earlier?

Commodore · 2005-07-27 18:57:43

So they are going back and trying to fix the tank so crap doesn't fall off.

Is this the same tank they said just yesterday that they could never completely prevent crap from falling off?

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-27 18:57:55

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/pd … PAL_FS.pdf

More documentation that NASA will be sure to hand out to reporters, dated April 2005... the best part:

"testing has shown there is no evidence of aerodynamic instability on the cable trays during ascent. Therefore, the External Tank Project Office is considering eliminating the PAL ramps"

So lets get this straight... you had Michoud engineers glue two really big chunks of foam to the side of the tank right under the orbiter by hand... but you later found out that you didn't need them... but you left them on anyway? Why?

So much for "new safety culture"

Look, NASA... you've spent almost $10,000,000,000 since the Columbia disaster on Shuttle not flying a single time, you've had almost 1,000 days of time to fix the tank which killed seven men and nearly cost us the space program. I really don't think it is asking too much to expect a completly new tank with welded aluminum foam insulation or something for that kind of money.

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-27 19:14:27

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0503/04sts121et/

Dated March 2005

"four accelerometers will be located in the cable tray of liquid oxygen protuberance air load ramps and will be used to determine whether there is need for the ramps in future tank modifications.

"The instrumentation on ET-121 will confirm what our computer models tell us happens during launch and ascent... Though computer models are invaluable, the information gained from an actual launch will give us an even better picture." said Sandy Coleman, manager of the External Tank Project..."

Look, Sandy... you do know that there are going to be seven people's lives literally riding on your tank? That "actual launch" will be putting their lives at risk.

I think its time Mr/Ms. Coleman's employment be "re-evaluated"

Side note: ET-121 has the PAL ramps it seems... which one did Columbia fly, the 120 or 121?

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-27 19:47:07

http://www.rednova.com/news/space/45759 … e_flights/

"if not applied with precision, Munafo said, foam can simply fall apart...

...each bipod ramp is hand-sprayed by a pair of technicians, suspended with their heavy spray gear 60 feet in the air alongside the tank. Once spraying starts, it cannot stop until the job is done.

After each spray pass, technician must wait 30 to 60 seconds before the next pass. Spray too soon, and the expanding foam will overheat; too late and the layers won't stick together. The awkward shape of the attachment hardware also requires a skilled touch to avoid formation of lumps or bubbles."

The foam on the PAL ramps is also applied "manually" as the NASA documents cite, probobly much like the bipod foam method quoted above. Does this sound like something reliable enough for manned flight to you?

It gets better... http://www.floridatoday.com/columbia/co … 44772A.htm

This isn't a totally freak occurance...

Edit:...And yes friends! These very same folks at Michoud will not only be building the cores for NASA's heavy lifter, but M. Griffin also promises that they will get to build the actual crew capsule itself!

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-27 20:23:14

Building a new tank with Aluminum foam insulation doesn't seem practical, the thermal conductivity is way too high.

I still say that NASA ought to wrap the entire tank with some kind of metal or polymer fiber mesh, perhaps applying it before the foam even hardens to make it flush with the surface. The maximum shed foam size from the tank ought to be measure in millimeters.

Michael Bloxham · 2005-07-27 23:38:35

Or they could scrap the shuttles now, while they're ahead

Xaliqen · 2005-07-28 00:02:37

Or they could scrap the shuttles now, while they're ahead

I have to admit, from my standpoint, this option is looking more and more attractive. Now, of course there are a number of negative ramifications associated with this. But, realistically, at some point it's best to cut the losses, cut to the chase and say, "Hey! It's time to build a better boat." So, is it time yet? Well, I really find myself wanting to say "yes."

Austin Stanley · 2005-07-28 00:44:09

As a side note, this delay, especialy if it turns out to be as long as the last one, pretty much rules out any possibility of another Hubble repair mission and certianly cause much difficulty in deciding what to do with the ISS. This all makes me think this may be some subtle ploy by Griffen to get the shuttle retired sooner rather than later, or maybe this is just wishfull thinking.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-28 01:05:32

Lets see if the link works...
What you are looking at fellow space fanatics, is as I take it, a picture of the fuel tank taken by Shuttle shortly after seperation. Notice that it is in a "straight" spot, and hence must be part of the Hydrogen tank below the interstage, hence the talk of a birdstrike being the cause is impossible. It gets better:

Very good link GCNRevenger and info but...

GCNRevenger and others, could you all please use the URL tags when providing links that are very long,
or with a big Url address in the link

The old forums used to auto re-size the links

but here Large address links cause the page to get messed up and then you have to scroll left and right

what you do here is
1 start the [ url = ]
2 add the address
inside [ url = http:// www. yahoo.com/ news /shuttlestory ]
3 name the link
[ url = http:// yahoo.com / news /shuttlestory ] SHUTTLE LINK
4 close the url tag
[ url = http:// yahoo.com/ news /shuttlestory ] SHUTTLE LINK

The link should come out like this
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com … --]shuttle PHOTO link

Thank you

We have a few topics on NASA, ISS and Shuttle going and I didn't have time to look at them all
So sorry if these news story have been posted already
Here is a small addressed link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8720825/
NASA grounds shuttle
and another story - NASA grounded the space shuttle program while engineers determine the effects of debris falling
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/2 … x.html]CNN space story

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-28 05:52:25

Crew will spend hours today examining every inch of the shuttle
Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev and US astronaut John Phillips took digital pictures through 400mm and 800mm lenses from the station's Zvezda service module. .Video showed what appeared to be a large piece of debris flying off the external fuel tank two minutes into the flight. The object did not seem to hit the orbiter, Shuttle photo near ISS.
http://www.ljplus.ru/img2/p/l/plesetsk/ … 8_1418.jpg
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums … 3&start=31
http://www.ljplus.ru/img2/p/l/plesetsk/ … 8_1421.jpg

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ … zc25hdg--] Shuttle pics alongside ISS

Footage also showed what might have been at least two light-colored objects flying off Discovery as the shuttle cleared the launch pad. A suitcase-sized piece of foam fell off Columbia during its launch and punched a hole in the wing. During its final approach the orbiter performed a backflip so the station crew could check its heatshield for damage and Discovery's belly tiles were imaged by cameras on the Space Station (ISS) as it moved into dock.

BWhite · 2005-07-28 06:09:22

Use of Soyuz to recover Discovery crew http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm … eNum=0]not possible?

MOSCOW, July 28 (Itar-Tass) - The crew of the US’ shuttle Discovery will be unable to use Russia’s escape capsules Soyuz for returning to the earth, the Federal Space Agency’s spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko said.
“At present, we have in a high degree of readiness Soyuz-TMA that is to deliver to the International Space Station the 12th resident crew. The launch of the ship is planned for October 1,” he told Itar-Tass on Thursday.
However, “even with availability of free spacecraft, the crew of the shuttle will be unable to use them for returning to the earth even if an emergency arises”, he said.
“So called cradles that mitigate overloads during the re-entry are tailor-made to a figure of each cosmonaut. The very metal chairs in Soyuz are standard, and half-rigid ‘inserts’ are made from a mould of the body of a cosmonaut,” an official at Moscow’s Institute of Biomedical Problems explained.
“For this, an unclothed cosmonaut is embedded in gypsum and then the ‘insert’ and a spacesuit are made from this mould”.
Davidenko said the “matter of possible purchase of Russian spacecraft by the (US space agency) NASA has not been settled so far”.

If true, I wonder if this is news to NASA?

Palomar · 2005-07-28 06:53:41

Use of Soyuz to recover Discovery crew http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm … eNum=0]not possible?
MOSCOW, July 28 (Itar-Tass) - The crew of the US’ shuttle Discovery will be unable to use Russia’s escape capsules Soyuz for returning to the earth, the Federal Space Agency’s spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko said.
“At present, we have in a high degree of readiness Soyuz-TMA that is to deliver to the International Space Station the 12th resident crew. The launch of the ship is planned for October 1,” he told Itar-Tass on Thursday.
However, “even with availability of free spacecraft, the crew of the shuttle will be unable to use them for returning to the earth even if an emergency arises”, he said.
“So called cradles that mitigate overloads during the re-entry are tailor-made to a figure of each cosmonaut. The very metal chairs in Soyuz are standard, and half-rigid ‘inserts’ are made from a mould of the body of a cosmonaut,” an official at Moscow’s Institute of Biomedical Problems explained.
“For this, an unclothed cosmonaut is embedded in gypsum and then the ‘insert’ and a spacesuit are made from this mould”.
Davidenko said the “matter of possible purchase of Russian spacecraft by the (US space agency) NASA has not been settled so far”.
If true, I wonder if this is news to NASA?

*Don't know. I'm actually rather confident the crew will return safely and soundly.

Will defer further (grumbling) comments...

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-07-28 07:00:45

Use of Soyuz to recover Discovery crew http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm … eNum=0]not possible?
MOSCOW, July 28 (Itar-Tass) - The crew of the US’ shuttle Discovery will be unable to use Russia’s escape capsules Soyuz for returning to the earth, the Federal Space Agency’s spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko said.
* * *
Davidenko said the “matter of possible purchase of Russian spacecraft by the (US space agency) NASA has not been settled so far”.
If true, I wonder if this is news to NASA?
*Don't know. I'm actually rather confident the crew will return safely and soundly.
Will defer further (grumbling) comments...
--Cindy

Yeah, I agree. But Discovery appears to have been lucky and lucky ain't good enough.

Palomar · 2005-07-28 07:10:14

...lucky ain't good enough.

*Well of course.

That goes without saying.

--Cindy

GCNRevenger · 2005-07-28 07:23:00

Quoted from the New York Times I think:

"Mr. Parsons and Mr. Hale said there were other surprising examples of lost foam - including divots several inches long that popped out of "acreage foam," which is applied robotically and had been considered to be free of shedding problems."

The madness continues! It gets better still! On the graves of the Columbia and Challenger crews I demand to know NASA, what does it take? No more piecemeal plug-the-dike solutions NASA, don't you even think about flying Atlantis just because you removed those PAL ramps.

The story that NASA's foam trouble has gotten alot worse since switching to non-freon-applied foam for environmental reasons back in 97' apears to be true as well. NASA's incompetance is becomming more and more staggering... please explain why we are not using the freon-based foam? You know, the foam that would have reduced the liklihood of killing the Columbia crew which you knew fell off the tank and damaged tiles previously?

I don't care how many tanks you have at Michoud with the new foam and PAL ramps, in fact I wouldn't care if you had any with the old foam either, the next tank better be wrapped in Kevlar netting or something!

...And with every last gram of manually applied foam ripped off, and the incompetant managers and engineers who designed and aproved the tank with manually applied foam sections and non-freon foam be summerly fired without severence pay NOW.
----------------------------------------------------

It would make my day - week maybe - to hear Griffin get on the air and say that he wants to begin negotiations immediatly with Bush/Congress about retiring the Shuttle fleet now rather then later. Unfortunatly I don't see that happening, the political forces in the Shuttle camp are too strong, both domestic Senators and foreign relations wise with ISS signatories.

Then there is the PR... NASA putting Shuttle back up, now give up the ship because of more foam bits after ten billion dollars were spent? And NASA, you know the Moon guys, is powerless to stop pieces of foam breaking up that you might find in a modern car bumper? Yeah, that will go over reaaally well... Probobly the loss of faith in NASA would end VSE too, but at this rate, that might be deserved.

And I am sure some of you must be thinking foam shedding isn't a problem for a Shuttle-Derived HLLV. That is completly the wrong way to think, the problem is that the people who run or oversee Michoud are incompetant, even when their failure has killed people (!!!), and will botch any project in the name of political expedience. Griffin had BETTER get this notion of letting Michoud build CEV out of his head REAL QUICK, Senator from Lousiana or not.

*LIVID*

Palomar · 2005-07-28 07:40:05

*I totally agree with you, GCN.

And I thought the low point of NASA's manned missions was 1975's silly schmarmy warm-fuzzy "Apollo-Soyuz" mission, which culminated in a handshake. And now the Soviet Union is long since history. And how dare they have used the sacred word "Apollo" for that mission anyway??

I've been waiting since 1975 for the next Big Step. Still waiting...

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Back on topic... :evil:

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2005-07-28 07:59:10

I take the opposite view. Closed cell foam will always shed something. It rapidly ascends into extremely low pressure while travelling at hypersonic speads. Foam is closed cell, there's no way it could withstand the drop in pressure, the cells will burst. I suspect this chunk of foam loss was due the an area of the bypod no longer covered with foam. The edge of foam below the bipod got caught in hypersonic air and was torn off. So the latest loss of foam was due to the change in foam.

The reason I say that I take the opposite view, is that NASA has grown a glass jaw. This foam didn't strike the orbiter at all and no damage was done, yet they grounded the orbiter. WHAT!? If there was damage I could understand that, but when there isn't any damage?

New designs won't have these problems. As we discussed, "The Stick" won't have an external tank at all, and the SRB segment seals with rubber O-rings won't have a liquid hydrogen tank beside them. The Challenger or Columbia accidents can't happen. The SDVs won't have any tiles so don't care if foam comes off. These problems will go away with future vehicles.

The orbiter itself has been improved to deal with foam issues. The white tiles have been replaced by thermal blankets. Foam just bounces off blankets. Black HRSI tiles are being replaced by attrition by FRCI tiles that are 3 times as strong vs. impact damage. They happen to be 10% lighter but more expensive. They're new, thermal blankets and FRCI didn't exist when the shuttle was first built. Last night I talked to one individual who said RCC gets pitted during use. NASA has a protocal to fill holes up to 1/4" diameter rather than replacing the piece. The guy I talked to doesn't think the pits have been sufficiently studied to determine if patched tiles are strong enough to withstand foam impact. If that's it then replacing patched RCC tiles with new ones will make them immune to foam. This is the trick, make tiles strong enough rather than trying to stop foam from coming off. The orbiter has had dings in its tiles since the very first flight, STS-1.

Palomar · 2005-07-28 11:22:42

*A miss is as good as a mile, but:

NASA: Discovery Escaped Serious Damage
AP - 1 hour, 27 minutes ago
SPACE CENTER, Houston - Discovery seems to have been spared serious damage from the foam shrapnel that flew off the fuel tank during liftoff in an eerie repeat of the problem that doomed Columbia

That just in from Yahoo! Otherwise Discovery is deemed to be in good shape and they're expecting an uncomplicated return.

But still. ::shakes head::

--Cindy

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