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#76 2004-09-17 14:16:47

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Smurf,

heh, yes. I guess it's because the 'fuzzyness' of the circuitry, the constant fluctuations.. If you run that throug a sim, you'd see your engines run... but apparently erratically, so you won't be much wizer... only if you 'bolt on' a sim of the hardware of the robot (wheels, sensors... ) in relation with its envionment, you'd be able to see whether it behaves 'good' or 'bad'

That's exactly where i think breve could help... it models physical world stuff, and has some neural net capabilities, so...[/color:post_uid1][/quote:post_uid1]
[color=#000000:post_uid1]I know it hard to simulate the mechanics of the bots. As on Mars you will have all sorts of problems like the fine dust.

But you want to test the idea not? Then have a simulation that simulates the movements of the legs/wheels and other parts. Just like it would be an ideal situation doesn't matter if its real or not, we are just looking for if it would work without spending mucho dineros. Then plug in the software (ai) and see if it works. Then make the simulation a bit harder, like all sorts of objects that the emulated bot must conquer.  And see if it works and make modifications if needed. Other legs/wheels or improve the AI.[/color:post_uid1]


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#77 2004-09-17 14:47:58

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well... that breve simulator is waaay cool, but I'm currently wondering what would be the most cost-efficient way to do go: build real hardware and tinker with it, or model it...

Maybe a combination: build one 'bot, look how it works, and drop the model in breve, go on using modeling.

Too bad bree currently doesnt support multiple complex bots... would be real cost efective: build one bot and 'virtually' multiply it, to see how they would work together...

Still, an interesting program.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#78 2004-09-17 20:31:34

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Well... that breve simulator is waaay cool, but I'm currently wondering what would be the most cost-efficient way to do go: build real hardware and tinker with it, or model it...

Maybe a combination: build one 'bot, look how it works, and drop the model in breve, go on using modeling.

Too bad bree currently doesnt support multiple complex bots... would be real cost efective: build one bot and 'virtually' multiply it, to see how they would work together...

Still, an interesting program.[/color:post_uid1][/quote:post_uid1]
[color=#000000:post_uid1]I was thinking of something like a mix of a life simulator (which you have now as a screensaver) and a realtime 3D (simple)physics engine borrowed from doom3/quake and an autocad program. The life simulator for the simple beambot like AI, the 3D engine for the simulated environment and the autocad program for the electronics and mechanics simulation.

Cost effective: Well most modern machines and cars are first designed in an autocad like program and if all the simulations work in there they build a prototype. So why not for robotics? However now like the bots run in a computer generated 3D environment for some time. Hook up some genetic algorithmes and then build a prototype of the best bot.

About computer processing power. If you would have such a piece of software for the beambots you talk about often. I'll bet you can emulate many of them on a common PIV Dell machine.[/color:post_uid1]


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#79 2004-10-03 08:26:04

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I set up this thingy:

A Robot Colony on Mars

But I have my doubts... My way of putting things on paper/computer is just too unstructured, sigh.

Oh well...[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#80 2004-10-04 02:57:24

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]

I set up this thingy:

A Robot Colony on Mars

But I have my doubts... My way of putting things on paper/computer is just too unstructured, sigh.

Oh well...[/quote:post_uid1]
I went to your portal site and wanted to comment on one of the threads there but I was not able to login.

Have you thought of contacting for instance the  (german) guys who want to send a privatly funded satellite to Mars. From what I read they are member of the organization Amsat who put up private sats on earth orbit all the time. So they have a lot of partical know how. I saw there is also a belgium division called AMSAT-ON.[/color:post_uid1]


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#81 2004-10-04 03:26:22

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
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Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I just skimmed your site quickly Rxke. I enjoyed it. I think the unstractured way you started it is a good way to get ideas flowing. Eventually in should come to gether into something more orginized.[/color:post_uid0]

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#82 2004-10-04 04:40:22

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I went to your portal site and wanted to comment on one of the threads there but I was not able to login.

.....Have you thought of contacting for instance....[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]My fault... Should work now.

And about the contacting: no. In fact waiting for somebody to point out the error(s) in my thinking, heh. I'm pretty sure there must be one or more, because otherwize this would have been done/attempted already by a private org...

For now it's only wild rambling, in fact, I'm seriously surprized you guys are not laughing your heads off...[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#83 2004-10-04 14:06:32

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Some posts ago I mentioned simulating robots in software. This should take a lot of processing power but as the general talk is about beambots, which have no brains and limited function. I don't think this will be the case in this situation.

However I wonder what would be needed to simulate such an situation.

This what I think what's needed:

1.Simulate the laws of physics: What goes up must go down.
2.Mechanics: Simulated parts that work together to create movement.
3.Electronics: Simulated electronics parts and there properties.
4.Enverioment: A 3D enverioment.

A1: This is already done in modern 3D games.
A2:When I was at school we had AutoCAD which is a design program. We run at on 486 PC's and early pentiums and you could at that moment already see how you design would work. So a modern day PC should be able to better and more detailed.
A3:See A2
A4:See A1

So as I see it, it should be possible here and now to have such a program. I would be great because if you would hook a genetic algoritme you can mix different bots and get the best bot out of it.

However I feel I'm missing something.

PS: Keep in mind I understand that anything like this would just be a simulation but it's at zero cost and will give you a better understanding. And besides that you could be change all kinds of variables like how much damage a part would get over time and restrict the bot. Or the weather and what influences it would have, etc, etc, etc.[/color:post_uid1]


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#84 2004-10-04 18:01:33

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Check out breve, it has a 'physical environment' as option, where stuff behaves like in the real world, you can even alter the gravity...

breve 1.9

'bout the electronics i'm not too sure they've implemented that, but there is stuff in it that would work a bt like it (at least, I think)[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#85 2004-10-04 18:06:27

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Check out breve, it has a 'physical environment' as option, where stuff behaves like in the real world, you can even alter the gravity...

breve 1.9

'bout the electronics i'm not too sure they've implemented that, but there is stuff in it that would work a bt like it (at least, I think)[/color:post_uid1][/quote:post_uid1]
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Aah, I was looking in the dictionary what breve ment, all the the time. I couldn't find it so I figured it was either slang or a spelling mistake.[/color:post_uid1]


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#86 2004-10-05 01:28:10

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Stupid of me not mentioning it's a program...

The spelling without capital B makes i double confusing....[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#87 2004-10-22 12:45:33

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]breve has been updated significantly, it's currently at 2.0.1

look at all the new stuff they implemented! cool

"breve 2.0 is now available! Version 2.0 includes tons of great new features, like full integration of the Push programming language, a new garbage collection system, a new API to interface with breve from other languages, and major improvements, optimizations and bug fixes to every aspect of the software! The new release is available for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux in the..." (the full list is in the download itself, pity...)

breve[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#88 2004-10-23 13:28:58

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Thanks for informing, I'm reading the pdf now.[/color:post_uid0]


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#89 2004-10-23 14:50:48

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I think the ability to i/f with different programminglanguages is a real boon (not that *I* am a programmer, heehee)

Some stuff I tried that crashd on 1.9,, seems to work ok now, great.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#90 2004-11-06 12:02:19

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Today at Canadian tire I bought a volt meter today, two small pairs of cutter pliers and an organizer. Maybe I will actually start trying to build some stuff. Next stop radio shack. I wonder if I can find a cheap oscilloscope on ebay.[/color:post_uid0]

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#91 2004-11-06 12:31:44

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid1]

I think the ability to i/f with different programminglanguages is a real boon (not that *I* am a programmer, heehee)

Some stuff I tried that crashd on 1.9,, seems to work ok now, great.[/quote:post_uid1]
You should try Python, its not hard to learn. There are a lot of free online books and tutorials for it. With some effort you could learn it in a weekend. See here python documentation.[/color:post_uid1]


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#92 2004-11-06 18:29:58

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'm not a programmer, but used to program a lot when younger, and loved it. I even learned myself (fairly basic) cobol programming, from reading listings, just for kicks, took me less than a day.
But then I had a period in my life I just absolutely loathed computers, saw them as overrated, boring, intrusive soulles,.... machines. Started aroudn the time the first PC-XT came out, and no, that was no coincidence! What I saw was a horribly expensive, underperforming machine (it was slower than the Z80's based machines, sigh,) taking over the world, making computers  an uninspiring 'desk-thing,' ugh!

Fastforward to the end of the 90's i got hooked again, but never got into programming anymore. Too much choice!

I'm half considering to taking up Smalltalk, though. Now you can find free versions, it's soooo poweful, and still elegant....[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#93 2004-11-06 20:29:31

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'm not a programmer, but used to program a lot when younger, and loved it. I even learned myself (fairly basic) cobol programming, from reading listings, just for kicks, took me less than a day.
But then I had a period in my life I just absolutely loathed computers, saw them as overrated, boring, intrusive soulles,.... machines. Started aroudn the time the first PC-XT came out, and no, that was no coincidence! What I saw was a horribly expensive, underperforming machine (it was slower than the Z80's based machines, sigh,) taking over the world, making computers  an uninspiring 'desk-thing,' ugh!

Fastforward to the end of the 90's i got hooked again, but never got into programming anymore. Too much choice!

I'm half considering to taking up Smalltalk, though. Now you can find free versions, it's soooo poweful, and still elegant....[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Perhaps then Ruby is more your cup of tea?[/color:post_uid0]


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#94 2004-11-07 03:10:08

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]heard, even read about ruby, but it convinces me even more Smalltalk is the daddy of all interesting languages! big_smile

Like the amazing Croquet project, based on Squeak, based on Smalltalk... for instance.. Powerful stuff, powerful stuff...[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#95 2004-11-17 11:39:02

John Creighton
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]For people that often forget how to hook up a NPN transistor:
Yet another Robotics link

[b:post_uid0]Edit: Oh no! One of the pictures is a PNP transistor but the page talks about NPN. One way to remember NPN is Not Pointing iN. I guess you got to be carefull what you trust on the web.[/b:post_uid0][/color:post_uid0]

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#96 2004-11-18 02:01:42

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

[color=#000000:post_uid0]:D  Not sure if the post was in jest or for real, John?

but it's not only on the web... how many times there are electrical schemata in electronics mags, that later get corrected in *very small print* in the errata section... Sigh.[/color:post_uid0]


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#97 2005-07-26 17:46:09

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Simulation of Intelligent Robotic Colony

Just as long as we dont go into Regular transistors (as opposed to field effect) having a switching noise at eight hertz.-hey If intelligent civilization has developed the transistor, There should be 8 Hz hotspots all over the galaxy.

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