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BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

al Qaeda is weak, very weak, except for our hysterical reactions.

*al-Qaeda may be weak now.  But what about all those other Islamoterrorist groups/cells?  They seem rather active to me, if news headlines are any indication.

Who? What? Where?

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

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BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

BEFORE regime change I raised the Kurd/Turkey problem as a reason to be cautious about removing Saddam. Were you foolish for supporting the decision for regime change when you did not know all the potential consequences?

I don't recall Cindy supporting the decision for regime change in the build-up to the war.

Fair enough. Okay Cindy, I present the question.  Did you support the decision to remove Saddam? Today, do you believe that decision was wise?

My metric is prudence, not some "liberal" guilt thing. Was it WISE to remove Saddam? How about HOW we did it, were our methods WISE?

= = =

PS - -  I again ask Cobra and Cindy, what do we do about Kurd terror in Turkey? Anything?

= = =

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, … 0,00.html] Allawi was supposedly the guy the US backed in the recent Iraqi elections, no?

IRAQ’S former interim prime minister Iyad Allawi has warned that his country is facing civil war and has predicted dire consequences for Europe and America as well as the Middle East if the crisis is not resolved.

“The problem is that the Americans have no vision and no clear policy on how to go about in Iraq,” said Allawi, a long-time ally of Washington.

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

PS - - I again ask Cobra and Cindy, what do we do about Kurd terror in Turkey? Anything?

There's a number of things to say about this. First, do we do anything about it? If so, if it's our responsibility to keep one foreign group from attacking another how can anyone argue against any American intervention anywhere?

"Because we broke Iraq" I hear burbling through the Force. Okay, fair enough. What about the killing of non-communists in Vietnam after we pulled out? What about Somalia? What about Sudan (we did bomb a pharmaceutical plant there)  and Kosovo?

The problem with this "we broke it, it's all our responsibility now" reasoning is that far from some mythical call for moderation it leads logically to either isolationism or Empire. Either of which I can accept on their respective merits. Fact is, no action comes without negative consequences. We're better off looking long-term at total good vs. ill rather than nitpicking individual problems.

So in short, let the Turks deal with Kurdish terrorists. If we're going to start agonizing about every problem that results from something we did than we better start building up some forces to straighten out everything that got screwed up when the Soviet Union fell.

That said, again, the current policy is flawed, mistakes continue to be made, yadda yadda, flogging the horse, damn Bush, Vietnam. 

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

Fact is, no action comes without negative consequences.

Exactly!

And two years ago, to raise this exact point was deemed un-patriotic.   

= = =

Some of what we do DOES empower the terrorists. To analyze how our actions can minimize terrorist motivation is not appeasement or backing down, it's merely prudence.

A woman does have the RIGHT to walk through a dark alley at 3:00 am and be free from assault. That said, if its my daughter/wife I'd counsel, "Don't do it, because its foolish."

I criticize our policy concerning the Islamic world as foolish and I am attacked for blaming America. And that makes me feisty.  8)

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

And two years ago, to raise this exact point was deemd un-patriotic.

While I have an obligation to defend no actions but my own, I must say that of those voicing objections, many were simply asking for answers about possible consequences.

But some were merely spewing forth venom for its own sake. And one could argue that ceaseless bashing of one's own country for the sole purpose of trashing it is unpatriotic.

But then I have a habit of advocating preparations for revolution, so patriotism is perhaps a relative thing. 

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

An http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/app … pportunity for agreement? I hope!

Three cheers for the author of this column.

Wal-Mart is a company that wraps itself in red, white and blue.

I might understand it if Wal-Mart said I ought to fire Mark because what he said wasn't accurate. But that isn't the case. Mark accurately reported that there are 10,000 children of Wal-Mart employees in a health-care program that is costing Georgia taxpayers nearly $10 million a year.

Shouldn't we talk about that?

When we stop listening to people on the other side of the fence, when we try to silence and even punish people for thinking differently than we do and raising facts and figures we don't like, well, we won't be red, white and blue anymore.

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

I might understand it if Wal-Mart said I ought to fire Mark because what he said wasn't accurate. But that isn't the case. Mark accurately reported that there are 10,000 children of Wal-Mart employees in a health-care program that is costing Georgia taxpayers nearly $10 million a year.

Shouldn't we talk about that?

Yes, we most definately should.

I put forth that the real problem is not Wal-Mart (which is evil, BTW  ) not offering benefits to its employees, but that so many employees and employers alike buy into the benefits paradigm.

A major factor in why healthcare costs are so high is precisely because of employer-provided insurance and government subsidies to those who don't have it. The person receiving services doesn't see themselves as directly paying for it and those providing the service have no incentive to price competitively. Market forces are removed, therefore costs are high.

However, some medical procedures have never been covered by insurance. Lasik vision correction for example. It used to cost around $5000. Now it's just a few hundred bucks. While this may not be a totally applicable case across the board, the basic premise still stands. When market forces are applied to medical treatment costs come down. In the absence of those forces, they tend to rise.

Point being, all the people that complain about Wal-Mart not offering benefits would do better to focus on all the corporations that do offer them. They're the real problem here.

Just dump it all. No health insurance, no pensions, no Social Security, no Medicaid. Just pay people right up front. Costs will come down, government will be less invasive, most people will be better off and more of those who aren't will be so directly because of their own actions, and nothing motivates one to change their behaviors than clearly visible consequences, both good and bad.

Freedom and responsibility, it's a wonderful thing. 

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

My, my. How libertarian! 

The hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies will NEVER EVER agree to such a plan. Bill Frist would have a heart attack. Cobra, your biggest opponents to this will be the GOP not the Democrats.

On the plane to/from Las Vegas the airline magazine had an article about boutique physicians who refuse insurance payments.

Very interesting and well worth talking about.

I agree!

= = =

Edit - - the doctors might well agree.  Just not the MBA types.

= = =

Edit #2 - - the first step must be to make it illegal for a hospital to charge an uninsured patient more than it charges Blue Cross / Blue Shield.

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

The hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies will NEVER EVER agree to such a plan. Bill Frist would have a heart attack. Cobra, your biggest opponents to this will be the GOP not the Democrats.

Both the GOP and the Democrats would fight tooth and nail against such a scheme I suspect.

That's where that whole raising an army thing comes in, Just for a little extra pressure.  :twisted:

Edit #2 - - the first step must be to make it illegal for a hospital to charge an uninsured patient more than it charges Blue Cross / Blue Shield.

Can't argue with that, though such a thing reeks to me of half measure. To get that enacted then go no further would be hardly worth the effort, while if the insurance model were shattered it would be a moot point.

I don't enter into compromises unless the opponent gets at least as screwed over as I do. 

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

BEFORE regime change I raised the Kurd/Turkey problem as a reason to be cautious about removing Saddam. Were you foolish for supporting the decision for regime change when you did not know all the potential consequences?

I don't recall Cindy supporting the decision for regime change in the build-up to the war.

Fair enough. Okay Cindy, I present the question.  Did you support the decision to remove Saddam? Today, do you believe that decision was wise?

My metric is prudence, not some "liberal" guilt thing. Was it WISE to remove Saddam? How about HOW we did it, were our methods WISE?

= = =

PS - -  I again ask Cobra and Cindy, what do we do about Kurd terror in Turkey? Anything?

1.  I still think we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan.  Concentrated on it, finished our task there.  It's been argued that Iraq could become a beacon of liberty and democracy for the Middle East; Afghanistan could have (and maybe does) serve in that capacity as well.

2.  The WMD claim:  Ill-advised, particularly when Rummy went so far as to clearly assert he knew where the WMDs were.  Still none found.

3.  I continue to question the validity of the Iraq war.  Yes, I do think it was ill-advised. 

4.  We're in it now, let's do the best we can by those people.  Hopefully it too will become a beacon of liberty and democracy.  Other folks here have cited other Mid-East nations becoming more sympathetic to democracy, Western political ideals, etc.

5.  Deposing Saddam a good idea?  It's too early to tell IMO, but I don't believe it was our "JOB" to do so.  [Except if he was funneling a lot of his personal wealth to terrorist causes; there's been claims he did...others said he didn't...]

--Cindy

P.S.:  Kurd terror in Turkey...don't know enough about it to comment.

(Someone beam me up now, please)

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We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

Cindy, we agree far more than I imagined.

Cool.   8)

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

<traversing turret!>

1. I still think we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan.

We have. We don't hear much about it largely because it's going reasonably well. Still there, staying the course. 

2. The WMD claim: Ill-advised, particularly when Rummy went so far as to clearly assert he knew where the WMDs were. Still none found.

Not the best issue to thrust to the forefront to justify war and apparently some bad intel was relied on while some other data was dismissed. But it can't ruthfully be said that we've found nothing. A few WMD items have turned up, sarin gas among other goodies, but not in the quantities expected and not as a sufficient cause for war in and of itself.

Which isn't to say that all of what was once there was gone when we invaded. Maybe it was long-since destroyed, maybe it's still hidden. Much uncertainty remains.

The rest I can't really argue with. I don't entirely agree, but it isn't wrong.

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

<traversing turret!>

*What does that mean?  Something from Star Wars?  Don't want to go off-topic, but I'm curious...

--Cindy

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We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Cobra Commander

Member

From: The outskirts of Detroit.

Registered: 2002-04-09

Posts: 3,039

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

<traversing turret!>

*What does that mean? Something from Star Wars? Don't want to go off-topic, but I'm curious...

Like a turret on a tank, rotating around to shoot in a new direction without changing course.

Of course, reading too much into it. . . Don't mean to imply I'd shoot 105mm fragmentation shells at you or anything.  :?

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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Palomar

Member

From: USA

Registered: 2002-05-30

Posts: 9,734

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

Of course, reading too much into it. . . Don't mean to imply I'd shoot 105mm fragmentation shells at you or anything.  :?

*Okay.  Well, of course not.  And besides...I wear glasses.   :shock:  See?  Lol...

--Cindy

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We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

DonPanic

Member

From: Paris in Astrolia

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 595

Website

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

The Muslim fellow who sells DomPanic fruit doesn't desire anyone to die.

Yes, I know.  Most Muslims are good and law-abiding people who desire peace, health for their families, safety and security.

Ah, we're on a agreement path if you admit that these people are not to be provoqued to wrath. I happened to dine in a muslim restaurant (Morrocan Couscous is really delicious)  when Ariel Sharon was showed stepping on the Jerusalem Mosquee Plazza on TV, most of the muslims were madly furious, and their fury turned at USA too, when Sharon was so well received by Bush in Washington and in his ranch.

Now, I've always said that antiterrorist struggle was the intelligence services job. That is using all means, stealth assassinations, corruption, edition of compromising photomontages showing fundy islamic preachers with hoars, this is a mercyless and silent fight to lead on.
Being openly tough is counterproductive, that's just inner propaganda bullshit.

I wear glasses.

With our very costly Social Insurance system, an ophtamolgist visit and the eyeglasses making will cost about 50$, unless you want to have a fashionable mark.

Commodore

Member

From: Upstate NY, USA

Registered: 2004-07-25

Posts: 1,021

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

How bout just taxing people for what it cost to run the system. What it really cost to run the system. Not the BS costs by the insurance industry.

That would cut out medicade, medicare, the biggest drain on seniors SS checks, and so on. Crap that were all paying for anyway.

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"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

Now, I've always said that antiterrorist struggle was the intelligence services job. That is using all means, stealth assassinations, corruption, edition of compromising photomontages showing fundy islamic preachers with hoars, this is a mercyless and silent fight to lead on.
Being openly tough is counterproductive, that's just inner propaganda bullshit.

hoars? = whores 

= = =

But when do we get photomontage of "Glorious Leader" being cheered by adoring crowds?

THAT is the first priority, no?

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

DonPanic

Member

From: Paris in Astrolia

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 595

Website

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

1. I still think we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan.

We have. We don't hear much about it largely because it's going reasonably well. Still there, staying the course. 

Quite not enough means and money, talibans are still active and many places along the pakistanese border are without any control. Still too much opium production, and with no poverty decline and jobs rise, the population might turn to talibans again.

DonPanic

Member

From: Paris in Astrolia

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 595

Website

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

hoars? = whores 

So what's the correct word for prostitutes ? :oops:

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

hoars? = whores 

So what's the correct word for prostitutes ? :oops:

The phonetics (vocal sounds) are correct for "hoars" but the spelling is whores.

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

DonPanic

Member

From: Paris in Astrolia

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 595

Website

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

hoars? = whores 

So what's the correct word for prostitutes ? :oops:

The phonetics (vocal sounds) are correct for "hoars" but the spelling is whores.

Thanks to improve my correct english 

C M Edwards

Member

From: Lake Charles LA USA

Registered: 2002-04-29

Posts: 1,012

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

ooh!  ooh!  Two good points! 

Bill's first:

How to bring Islam into the 21st century? Women's rights are the best place to start.

A sound tactic.  Health care workers have repeatedly found that the best place to start educating people about medical topics is to educate the mothers of a community, because that tactic spreads information to the most people per class session (mothers, fathers, and children all at once).

If we decide to focus our efforts on all Islam instead of those who stand against us, educating their women would be the best place to start.

There's just one problem with all that:

Who the hell are we to bring Islam into the 21st century?!   

This course would preclude any future chance to unite with Islamic peoples against a common enemy.  (Just a guess, but I'll bet terrorism has edged out lightning as a cause of death in Iraq this year.  Here in the States, it also put lighting to shame with a brief spike in activity during September of 2001... )  It's a waste of effort as well.  Every muslim on the planet is not out to get us (yet  :? ). 

And it also ignores a fundamentalist truth about ourselves (pun intended). Here's Cindy's point:

So what turned peoples into fanatics ?

Fundamental religion and its attendant intolerances and bigotries.

Same as what occurred in the past with Middle-Ages Christianity and Old Testament Judaism.

Religion is the culprit...like always.

I'll never forget the day I first heard the words, "Israel is God's chosen people, so I'll support them no matter what they do," in a sunday school class, and it wasn't the last.  You might be amazed at how prevalent this sentiment is among evangelical christians here in the United States.  There's also a very prevalent conviction among these groups that, because of the USA's unique position in history (most affluent, most powerful, etc.), the United States has been uniquely chosen by God for some purpose - and consequently is subject to divine judgement if we fail.  Muslims aren't widely appreciated, either.

Evangelical christians make up about 30% of the US population, and can claim nearly 35% of the voters.  Those numbers keep getting bigger every year.  People make a big deal about President Bush being one of them, but the fact is that no sitting US president consistently ignores the wishes of one third of the nation.  Dubya will be gone in a few years, but we won't soon be free of politicised religion. 

Evangelical does not automatically mean these people are fundamentalists, dispensationalists or fanatics, but these movements are shot through with all three.  The number of people subscribing to these three '-isms' is increasing right along with the number of evangelical voters.  That doesn't bode well for promoting cooperation with Islam. 

In fact, if the current trend of politically active fundamentalist fanaticism in the US continues far enough, we could eventually see religious terrorism answered with religious warfare by the United States, and see that supported by the majority of Americans. 

We still have a few decades before they can be open about their motives, though.

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"We go big, or we don't go."  - GCNRevenger

DonPanic

Member

From: Paris in Astrolia

Registered: 2004-02-13

Posts: 595

Website

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

Last time evangelists knocked at my door, I said them "Out ! no communists here !"
before slamming the door to their noses.
I really hate them.

BWhite

Member

From: Chicago, Illinois

Registered: 2004-06-16

Posts: 2,635

Re: Political Potpourri VIII

ooh!  ooh!  Two good points! 

Bill's first:

How to bring Islam into the 21st century? Women's rights are the best place to start.

A sound tactic.  Health care workers have repeatedly found that the best place to start educating people about medical topics is to educate the mothers of a community, because that tactic spreads information to the most people per class session (mothers, fathers, and children all at once).

If we decide to focus our efforts on all Islam instead of those who stand against us, educating their women would be the best place to start.

There's just one problem with all that:

Who the hell are we to bring Islam into the 21st century?!

Fair enough. But it wasn't my idea to start the "draining the swamp" operation in Iraq. Especially as they did not attack us on 11 September.

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Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]