Political Potpourri VIII

Rxke · 2005-07-23 04:04:24

From BBC:
1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

Now... Not the smartest thing to do, In current climate. Running away like that, and jumping on a tubetrain...

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 08:39:25

Slightly incorrect: An east asian man in a dark coat jumped the turnstyle barricades in the station adjacent to the ticket office. in the time it took the ticket attendent to flag the attention of the twenty ununiformed officers milling around in the entrance and out side areas of the station, the individual had reached the escalators to the platform. Officers yelling and pursuing him down the escalators with the three closest ununiformed officers reaching him at the entrance to the train, knocking him to the floor, putting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. He died instantly and at no time did these guntoating individuals - unheard over the noise of the railway - attempt an arrest, identify themselves as officers, or show consideration for the sanctity of life which even a scrubby little git dodging the ticket on a fare had the right to.

The shoot to kill policy of the english law enforcement services is in violation of the laws of the Commonwealth requiring the preservation of the right of the individual citizen to life, freedom from tyranny and pretty much everything that is likely to cause an individual to hold government, law, constitution, and/or sovereign in hatred and or contempt. In pushing this policy, the government of Britain, crossed the line into the dark world of Treason against the People of the Commonwealth.

This individual was never one of the so called suspects, and the police have just executed their first "everyday asshole".

simplesimon · 2005-07-23 08:41:45

not sure i agree that the shooting was entirely justified.

Consider:

1. Shooting was "intelligence-led"- if so, they should have known he did not have a bomb with him.

2. Even if he did have a bomb on him, he was said to have been "followed" onto the platform- not chased initially. (why didn't they shoot him as soon as he left his house (or take him in)- if they suspected he had a bomb?- strange.)

3. If police just wanted to kill any terrorist for the london bombings- why did they do it in such a public place?-- (government wanted to be seen as "tough on terror".

4. If police did think that the killing was justified due to numbe of people the terrorist helped kill (in the london bombings), then why did they not kill Harold Shipman (he killed more people, and over a longer period of time, and made various institutions look impotent).

Overall, on a wider note, i feel that the Iraq war may be a reason, but by no means a justification for the bombings. I feel that Br. and U.S.A. were right in removing the despotic dictatorial regimes of the taleban and Saddam Hussain, but i believe that other despotic regimes should be dealt with similar zeal. i.e. North Korea, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Israel (to name but a few).

Thank you for considering my point of view.

:? :? :? :? :?

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 08:49:13

1. Shooting was "intelligence-led"- if so, they should have known he did not have a bomb with him.
2. Even if he did have a bomb on him, he was said to have been "followed" onto the platform- not chased initially. (why didn't they shoot him as soon as he left his house (or take him in)- if they suspected he had a bomb?- strange.)

They didnt have intelligence on this guy, and he wasnt followed from his house. He was pointed out to officers in the station by the guy at the ticket counter for having skipped a fare.

Bang! You're dead for not paying the ticket to ride the train...If that wasnt a career decision, the next civilian victim will be.

simplesimon · 2005-07-23 08:55:30

1. Shooting was "intelligence-led"- if so, they should have known he did not have a bomb with him.
2. Even if he did have a bomb on him, he was said to have been "followed" onto the platform- not chased initially. (why didn't they shoot him as soon as he left his house (or take him in)- if they suspected he had a bomb?- strange.)
They didnt have intelligence on this guy, and he wasnt followed from his house. He was pointed out to officers in the station by the guy at the ticket counter for having skipped a fare.
Bang! You're dead for not paying the ticket to ride the train...If that wasnt a career decision, the next civilian victim will be.

According to english media, the shooting was "intelligence-led"-- Sir Ian Blair.

Actually, he was followed from a house that "was under surveilance in connection with the attempted London bombings"

Anyway, i agree that the plain-clothed SAS (btw, they think it was SAS rather than police-- no public inquiry called etc. -- SAS less accountable than police) were heavy handed and total assholes for not declaring themselves and their intentions. Seems to me as if it is "shoot the asian".

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 09:12:12

According to english media, the shooting was "intelligence-led"-- Sir Ian Blair.

I suppose being pointed out by the ticket clerk for dodging the fare is all the intel they needed.

I suppose the next one will be for dodging your taxes.

ps. lay off Zimbabwee. Thats a Commonwealth Nation and We have plans to restore Commonwealth Government from our Staging post in Iraq-After that, its just the Commonwealth Nations of Pakistan and India.

simplesimon · 2005-07-23 09:17:34

I suppose being pointed out by the ticket clerk for dodging the fare is all the intel they needed.
I suppose the next one will be for dodging your taxes.

I am fairly sure (despite your insistence), based on extensive watching of English news at home (almost non-stop), that the shooting was supposed to be truly intelligence-led. I.e. they tracked the guy and kept him under surveillance.

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 10:21:11

And we will stick with that cover story even when questioned by the independent review committiee...Move along folks, nothing to see here, everything is under control.

"Oh God, I've got brains all over my shoes."
"Just whipe it off...damn, did any one read this guy his rights?" Phil winced at the thought of it as he wiped his shoe on the perp's coat.

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 10:44:54

Or if you prefer:

A witness to the Stockwell shooting said the man was shot repeatedly in the head in a clear attempt to kill him, a tactic some papers said had been taught by Israeli security forces used to dealing with suicide attacks.
Mark Whitby was on a train at Stockwell station when an ethnic south Asian man ran on pursued by three plain-clothes police and fell to the floor.
"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead," Whitby said.

Josh Cryer · 2005-07-23 12:11:57

UK Police: Man Killed Unrelated to Probe

LONDON - The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters apparently had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their "regrets." A day earlier, the police commissioner said the man was "directly linked" to Thursday's attacks, in which bombs on three subway trains and a bus failed to detonate properly. No one was injured.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050723/ap_ … PUCUl]Link.

So, the guy ran because he didn't pay, a very petty crime. The police were in a psychotic "everyone is a suicide bomber" mindset, and the guy was a minority, so obviously he's out of the norm and probably up to no good, yeah, he's going to blow everyone up.

What a messed up situation.

DonPanic · 2005-07-23 16:21:43

UK Police: Man Killed Unrelated to Probe
LONDON - The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters apparently had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their "regrets." .
So, the guy ran because he didn't pay, a very petty crime. The police were in a psychotic "everyone is a suicide bomber" mindset, and the guy was a minority, so obviously he's out of the norm and probably up to no good, yeah, he's going to blow everyone up.
What a messed up situation.

I saw a video the London Police avoid to show again: this man has been shot with five bullets while grabed and maintained to the soil by two policemen.
A policeman a lost his cold blood and executed an innocent from bombing.
The order given to shoot at head suspicious peoples which do not obey at once is somehow a terrorists success : London Police has gone mad.

srmeaney · 2005-07-23 21:11:41

After this, they will never again avoid paying the fare again...Job done, fare collection efficiency at one hundred percent.

Grypd · 2005-07-24 06:31:29

The man had already attracted police attention before he entered the tube station. He was challenged by non uniformed police to stop and he then started to run jumping across the ticket barrier. He was chased down to the station and witnesses on both trains heard him being ordered to stop and being warned he would be shot if he did not obey.

One train the conductor in seeing him coming stopped all passengers from leaving and closed the doors getting the train moving. The man found later to be a Brazillian electrician then ran towards another train. There it becomes gray where according to some witnesses he attempted to grab a hostage.In the end though he fell to the ground and was shot in the head from close range at the entrance to the train.

If police believed he was a suicide bomber and his incredibly suspicious actions can only lead them to that result they acted to kill the man before he could detonate any explosives he was carrying. That was why he was shot to the head so as to avoid any detonation of a suicide belt on his body.

It was a tradegy and it has been admitted that he was not linked to the previous suicide bombing attacks but London is on full alert and it is not as if the signs warning of armed police operating are invisible. Whatever made this man run only an investigation will find out. But in the end it comes down to the police could have killed him any time but they waited till they could clearly shoot him in the head. This means they truly believed he was suicide bomb armed and that he had a bomb strapped to his body.

And shooting suicide bombers in the head is the safest way of dealing with suicide bombers, ask the Israelis. There are 4 suicide bombers out there who have there bombs fail. In likehood the explosives used had been made months ago and had degraded. One bomber was reported as lieing on one of the bombs when he set it off and to have swore guite badly when it only made a small hole in the bag and a lot of smoke.

These Bombers are definitly going to try again and we have to stop this cell before it can do suceed and though it is better to capture them for the intelligence they can give us and basic humanity reasons. We cannot allow them to risk innocent life. So if it comes down to killing a potential bomber or letting them detonate another bomb. Sorry folks the bomber has to be shot dead

DonPanic · 2005-07-24 12:02:08

LO
I don't mind going to London even with terrorists' threat, but if is added a mad non uniformed cops threat, I'll go elsewhere.

* Ô lord, do protect me from my friends, I'm taking care of my ennemies...

srmeaney · 2005-07-25 06:16:49

It isnt just the Cops, At the airport, the visa guy asks you what you think about warm beer. Wrong answer and you can guarentee that you will spend the rest of your life on one of the new british prison transport ships.-Forever bound for Botany Bay, just never quite getting there...

clark · 2005-07-25 06:20:09

I really don't have an opinion on this tragedy.

Me, I get on a train everyday. There are announcements now, reminding people to be on the look out and report any suspicious activity. Just today, there was a notice on every seat in the train explaining that the police and transit security would be doing random bag searches.

I hate to admit it, but I feel myself watching certain people because I think they might be a terrorist. Just because of the way they look. I don't say anything, and watch from the corner of my eyes, but I can't help it. I feel bad because these people who look a certain way must become aware of the long stares, or the constant silent attention.

Now, I'm on these trains, just like a bunch of other people. Police, armed with semi-automatic rifles are patrolling the stations and the trains themselves. Knowing that they have orders to shoot first and ask questions later makes me nervous. I'm sure it makes other people nervous.

So a train, everyday, with nervous people, nervously watching one another, and waiting. Waiting for another attack, or another person to get mistakenly shot because he panicked.

It is all regrettable, understandable, and there are few options to make the situation any better.

Grypd · 2005-07-25 06:32:39

One more thing found out about the Man who was killed. He had entered the UK on a student visa but this had run out more than 2 years ago.

This meant he was here illegally and could explain that when challenged by police he ran.

DonPanic · 2005-07-25 08:49:06

Me, I get on a train everyday.

I don't, after terrorist attacks in Paris Metro I bought and customized this

by chance, there is no working place, shop or service under a range of 20 miles I can't go by bike from my house in Paris..
I always travel by train for hollidays, french drivers are much more dangerous than terrorists. (8000 killed per year) :cry:

I think that the "shoot at the head" policy is indeed criminal and stupid.
Or you can prevent terrorist attacks by intelligence, or you failed if a human bomb can go downtown; he will blast himself seeing a threat at himself before you can even target him.
If the policemen who shot the brazilian folk where cold blooded as trained police officers are supposed to be, they shouldn't have executed him.
Therefore I disagree totally with these barbaric methods.
"by chance" he happened to be a Brazilian, what if he had been a peaceful muslim ? riots ? retaliations ? more reasons for muslims to hate us ?

Palomar · 2005-07-25 10:41:19

*DonPanic, would you have preferred the police simply let this man get away? What if he HAD been a bomber and 10 seconds later had detonated his explosives? To attempt to merely physically apprehend and take him down would have taken a lot more time -- time in which he might have blown himself and lots of other people up.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, don't they? The lives and safety of many other people were potentially at great risk.

We can't expect the police to be psychics. They couldn't read this man's mind.

The police have to be given a bit of slack. They aren't perfect; no one is.

--Cindy

P.S.:

Grypd: He had entered the UK on a student visa but this had run out more than 2 years ago.
This meant he was here illegally

*And so this situation could have been entirely avoided if a) he'd renewed his student visa and b) if he'd stopped running when the police commanded him to do so. He is ultimately to blame for the situation.

As for DonPanic's comment about "making Muslims hate us more": Well, should we do everything the radical Muslims want us to do? Should I log off from New Mars never to return (because I'm interacting with males other than my husband) and put on a burkha? If we in the West followed all their religious rules and regulations, would they "like us" then? Give me a break.

simplesimon · 2005-07-25 11:54:12

The police have to be given a bit of slack. They aren't perfect; no one is.

Well said!!!!

I agree totally, and sorry SRMEANEY for insisting that:

1. SAS shot the man
2. The operation was "intelligence-led"

It turns out that the British media told me the wrong "facts".

Hmmmm, I'm sensing censorship!!!!

C M Edwards · 2005-07-25 14:47:30

Hmmmm, I'm sensing censorship!!!!

Odd. I'm just sensing CYA... :?

I haven't been reversing myself often enough lately, but this looks like an opportunity to get in some much needed practice. 8) Here goes:

My earlier opinion was wrong. In time honored tradition, I blame the misinformation given out by the London Police. However, I should have known better than to accept an official police statement at face value so soon after anything, much less a shooting death. Sorry about that.

Admittedly, the man's death had a poetic justice quality to it (what with jumping the turnstile and all). However, if the actions of professional police forces were meant to be judged by their potential as dramatic devices, J. Edgar Hoover's FBI and the Keystone Cops would be the absolute pinnacles of law enforcement history. Whether or not the suspect "needed killin'" is irrelevent.

Did the agents act properly? Would I have pulled the trigger in their place? I honestly can't say. Perhaps I would have attempted to verify that the man was carrying explosives. Perhaps I would have looked for evidence of a detonator switch. Perhaps I'd have shot only once. Or perhaps, having a few rounds left, I would not have stopped with one suspect.

Such things always depend on the circumstances.

BWhite · 2005-07-25 15:29:32

Whatever it takes. From today's White House press conference:

We want to make sure that there is nothing that restricts the President's authority to be able to do what he needs to do to protect the American people and prevent attacks from happening in the first place, and bring to justice those who seek to murder innocent civilians.

Not even the Constitution. Those words are so quaint, so 1789.

BWhite · 2005-07-25 15:40:56

Hmmmm, I'm sensing censorship!!!!
Odd. I'm just sensing CYA... :?
I haven't been reversing myself often enough lately, but this looks like an opportunity to get in some much needed practice. 8) Here goes:
My earlier opinion was wrong. In time honored tradition, I blame the misinformation given out by the London Police. However, I should have known better than to accept an official police statement at face value so soon after anything, much less a shooting death. Sorry about that.
Admittedly, the man's death had a poetic justice quality to it (what with jumping the turnstile and all). However, if the actions of professional police forces were meant to be judged by their potential as dramatic devices, J. Edgar Hoover's FBI and the Keystone Cops would be the absolute pinnacles of law enforcement history. Whether or not the suspect "needed killin'" is irrelevent.
Did the agents act properly? Would I have pulled the trigger in their place? I honestly can't say. Perhaps I would have attempted to verify that the man was carrying explosives. Perhaps I would have looked for evidence of a detonator switch. Perhaps I'd have shot only once. Or perhaps, having a few rounds left, I would not have stopped with one suspect.
Such things always depend on the circumstances.

I think we need to allow all the facts to emerge before making any judgment, either way.

But also remember that Brazilian sentiment is damn important here. After all, they are considering whether to forge much closer ties to Communist China, they have had interest in becoming a nuclear power and they are unhappy that the US is blocking their seat on the UN Security Council.

= = =

We need more facts:

As the three plain-clothes officers closed in on Mr Menezes, they say that they screamed their first warning that they were armed police. Their version is that he turned, ran into the station concourse, vaulted the ticket barriers and reached a waiting train before they could catch him. They shot him five times in the head when they believed that he was trying to trigger a bomb.
His cousin, Alex Alves, claims in one account that Mr Menezes was “playing around with a friend in a game of chase outside the station”.
The police insist that he was alone during the entire journey.
Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area by a gang of young white men and thought the plain-clothes officers were muggers.
By far the most controversial claim comes from a number of witnesses who have cast doubt on police statements that they shouted a warning or identified themselves to the suspect before opening fire.
Lee Ruston, 32, who was on the platform, said that he did not hear any of the three shout “police” or anything like it. Mr Ruston, a construction company director, said that he saw two of the officers put on their blue baseball caps marked “police” but that the frightened electrician could not have seen that happen because he had his back to the officers and was running with his head down.
Mr Ruston remembers one of the Scotland Yard team screaming into a radio as they were running. Mr Ruston thought the man that they were chasing “looked Asian” as he tumbled on to a waiting Northern Line train.
Less than a minute later Mr Menezes was pinned to the floor of the carriage by two men while a third officer fired five shots into the base of his skull.
Again, Mr Ruston says that no verbal warning was given.

Anyone who offers a final opinion before a complete investigation is jumping to conclusions.

DonPanic · 2005-07-25 18:20:17

LO

*DonPanic, would you have preferred the police simply let this man get away? What if he HAD been a bomber and 10 seconds later had detonated his explosives? To attempt to merely physically apprehend and take him down would have taken a lot more time -- time in which he might have blown himself and lots of other people up.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, don't they? The lives and safety of many other people were potentially at great risk.
We can't expect the police to be psychics. They couldn't read this man's mind.
The police have to be given a bit of slack. They aren't perfect; no one is.
--Cindy
P.S.:
Grypd: He had entered the UK on a student visa but this had run out more than 2 years ago.
This meant he was here illegally
*And so this situation could have been entirely avoided if a) he'd renewed his student visa and b) if he'd stopped running when the police commanded him to do so. He is ultimately to blame for the situation.

If you allow to kill people for "if"s and "may be"s you allow to kill anyone for any reason.
The man had been caught and kept on the ground by two police officers while the third one fired. I'ts merely an execution.
They where in civilian clothes, wouldn't you run if three guys ran at you with guns ?
The facts are that 3 police officers misbehaved and one turned into a murderer.

As for DonPanic's comment about "making Muslims hate us more": Well, should we do everything the radical Muslims want us to do? Should I log off from New Mars never to return (because I'm interacting with males other than my husband) and put on a burkha? If we in the West followed all their religious rules and regulations, would they "like us" then? Give me a break.

When I said it's happy Brit police didn't kill a innocent muslim, does that mean I said you have to be ruled by the Muslims ?
Are Intentions lawsuits in your manners ?

You react strangely with your guts and not your brain for someone who loves lumières.

clark · 2005-07-25 18:22:37

Just my point of view, but I don't think any judgment can be made here.

This is ambiguous-morality play-dough.

This situation could have played out much differently- the one where the cops pull back and the guy blows up a train. I understand that, I think most of us do. We can appreciate the stakes involved in this situation.

Personally, I think the feeling of uneasiness that goes unsaid here is around where this will lead to.

To give you an idea, I was late for my train. I had to run several blocks, and then through the train station to make my connecting train to Newark Penn Station (the Path). So I am running and running, and I feel conspicuous, not because I think I look like a terrorist, but because I am this guy running down the street, towards a train, with a backpack.

I had only a few minutes to catch my train, and luckily I was able to *calmly* walk by the police search area set up just outside the entrance to the platform. Of course I was sweating (run several blocks in business attire on a hot muggy summer day in NY, see what happens) and felt nervous because I was sweating, and I had a backpack on, and I didn't want to get stopped for a train I couldn't miss (because if I did, it sets my commute back by nearly an hour).

And all the time in the back of mind is the thought that I can be the next poor shlub that gets it for a series of minor mistakes, all centered around me just trying to get from point A to point B.

And that is what I am worried about. I worry because I could just as easily be the next guy who the cops, for whatever reason, feel uneasy about, and just decide to be safe than sorry. Except then *I* get to be sorry.

Of course, riding on the trains that take me directly into the WTC worries me to no end. It's like Russian roulette, waiting for the terrorists to come back and make their next frickin symbolic act. All the symbolism we invest into WTC just makes it another target, and I have no real option not to travel this route.

So, in a nutshell, and I believe I speak for the majority of the sane world still left, "will the f*cking nut jobs, on both sides, please cut it out."

Thank you.

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