What Are You Doing?

clark · 2005-07-15 17:19:27

If God exsists, or doesn't, our belief will not matter.

Believing in God when God does not exsist will not make God exsist. Not believing in God when God does exsist will not end God's exsistence.

The question is ultimetly a personal one. Would you rather live an exsistence where there is a God, or there isn't?

There is nothing beyond that. Your life will not change, and God will not be required to do anything for you one way or the other.

A lot of people get caught up in the rule aspect of a belief system, and for some it works, others it doesn't. There are positives and negatives for either situation. It really is a matter of what is right for you. And deciding that is the hard part.

To me, a belief in God is a belief in something greater than myself. Most religions follow this premise, and build rules that allow the individual to actively demonstrate that feeling. That's all that is going on.

Just my 2 cents Mad Grad. You'll find your own answer.

Commodore · 2005-07-15 17:37:02

Posting on an internet message board.

Dook · 2005-07-16 05:13:08

Mad Grad Student: You sure hope I'm right? Why? Because I say that you do not have to go to church and pay a man who's been taught what to lecture you about? Think and decide for yourself. Also, I am not trying to start a religion, the world definately has enough of those, too much. God did not create religion, man did, and religion has grown to replace God.

Why are people afraid of dying? Because they truly do not believe in anything after this life. People go to church just in case but they really do not believe or understand that you have to live a life of truth. Do not lie, not because you are afraid of hell but because you know it's wrong. Do not do things that hurt others. Be the one, sometimes the only one, who stands up and says "This is wrong." Live that kind of life. Pay it forward, again and again, and again.

I grew up in a religious environment and rebelled against it. I was angry at what religion did to me. It taught me to hate people who did not believe in exactly what I was taught. I blamed God for doing that to me. Then something incredible happened. It was perfect, incredibly simple, and also completely impossible. It changed me instantly. So then I had to figure out just how God really existed amidst all of the torment that is today's religions and the conflict they have with science.

What I found is that the religions all basically say the same thing. Choose to do good. Sure one may say 'no alcohol' or that you must pray five times a day but did you ever think that God gave slightly different instructions to different types of people for a good reason? And the names may be different but agua is still the same even though we call it water.

As for the conflict that religion has with science, well, if God really did create the universe then there can be no conflict. It is the way it is because that's the way God wished it to be. Evolution is smart, the universe takes care of itself. Human's are not the only goal of the universe. An intelligent bird that know's right from wrong can grow a soul as well as a human can. Read Genesis again, it goes in step with the big bang, matter condensing, the formation of the earth, amoeba, fish of the sea, land animals, then man. Human's distorted the truth. If there is to be a one true religion then science is it.

If you can find it inside you to believe then you will instantly smile and be comforted. Daily things won't seem to be as important as you once thought them to be. There really is nothing to be afraid of. But if you don't find it or it doesn't find you, well, then I would still say to choose truth, do good. Push that American taught selfishness out of you. If you choose it instead then after death you WILL go a different way. It's not a punishment because you chose it by your actions in this life. A selfish life leads to an eternity serving selfish beings.

Mad Grad Student · 2005-07-16 23:59:48

Yeah, sorry, that last post was a little bit over-the-top. Ultimately beliefs don't really affect very much by themselves, but I want to believe whatever is correct. My beliefs won't change the way I live (I already try to be as good and truthful as possible), but I want to know what's correct and what's not. It's just a matter of inate curiosity, I suppose.

Dook, I'm curious as to what your own beliefs are. You mention that all religions tell us to do good. That's excellent, I'm all for that. However, what exactly does doing good have to do with our relationships with God? I try to be a good person merely for the purpose of making the world a little bit of a better place. Do we need a higher calling than that? When I say that I hope you're right I'm not referring to your views that God is loving and accepts everyone regardless of their actions. I hope that you're correct in that a diety exists in the form of which you speak and that there is in fact an afterlife. I'm willing to accept a worldview to the contrary, under the condition that it is the correct one, but I would greatly prefer it if your worldview is the right one.

In all of your statements you are making a great assumption, that God exists and is actively working in some way in all religions. Have you ever wondered if this is not the case? Religion does not conflict with science at all in my opinion, but that fact does not confirm the existance of God. Just because something could exist (life on Mars, extraterrestrial intelligence in the galaxy, a monster under my bed, for examples) does not necessarily mean it does. Please don't take any of this as an insult on your opinions, I'm just trying to discuss this very touchy subject as logically and consistently as possible.

Don't worry about me, I do choose truth (at least I think I do). I try to live my life with the highest degree of veracity possible, and this has led me to question this whole subject. My question for you, Dook, is not "Am I being a good person?" but rather, "Why do you believe what you believe?" Why do you think you will be rewarded for your actions in life later on? Please don't take that the wrong way, I want to know, and I think that's a valid question.

Commodore, probably not, but what the hey? You never know...

Dook · 2005-07-17 03:57:33

Why do people become parents? Regardless of what parents teach, ultimately children, teenagers, and adults have to choose. Each has a conscience but if you ignore anything long enough it goes away. Why? Because that is your choice.

I denounce religions because they are distorted by humans. Catholics confess their sins to a human when they should confess only to God. The Koran says nothing about women keeping themselves covered but it does say (the bible says it too) that “Men shall not lust after women” so the burden is placed on women. Religions put preachers, pastors, fathers, mullah’s in places where God should be. But I would say that for some people religion is good. Those who need structure and need to be told.

God is absolutely NOT working in all religions. God does not want you to only remember Him on Sundays and He certainly does not need a rich intermediary who has an hour long show.

I believe what I do because it is the most likely conclusion considering the experiences I have had and the things I have seen and know to be true.

I know there is a God and that He created the universe, beyond that I’m struggling just as much as you to understand it all. I do not see God performing miracles, He actually avoids them in my opinion so I believe our having a choice is more important to Him. Science is fact so anything that conflicts with it (religion) has to be wrong (Sherlock Holmes).

I do not believe I will be rewarded in the afterlife, that is a religious teaching. What I believe is that there are two ways to go, one takes you to an eternity of service to others, selfish beings who care not for your well being where you will be nothing more than a factory worker without a union, the other way takes you to a series of school houses on succeedingly higher levels. Choose now which way you WANT to go. Your choice is determined by the life you live.

C M Edwards · 2005-07-17 10:11:57

MadGrad, there’s a reason that no one can give you a cut and dried, objective reason for religion: There isn’t one. Not that there aren’t reasons, and very good reasons, but an actual survey finds that they’re all subjective. Everyone has their own reasons for their religious beliefs, and while there is considerable overlap, there is no universal reason other than faith. Furthermore, while theological discussions can refine one’s beliefs, and thereby strengthen an already extant faith, no one ever came to God through theological argument.

I understand Dook’s position on evangelism, though I don’t agree with it and have ultimately come to a substantially different conclusion. I like the idea of evangelism, but pietists who focus on it above all else give it a bad name. I know they want to share, but faith isn’t about stealing sheep. Evangelism for the purpose of recruitment isn't missionary, it’s mission drift. Stay away from people who think otherwise, no matter how many people are in their congregation.

I also don't agree with Dook's position on congregationalism and organized religion, but, as with Dook, my own path to religious conviction didn’t begin at some evangelist’s knee but with experimentalism.

I’ve tried just about everything that appealed to me. Some of the older, more orthodox religions are harder to break into, so I don’t have as much experience with those. I recall the folks at the mosque were pleasant but distant, for example (although I did meet a charming sufi fellow at a Unitarian Universalist meeting once), and roman catholics tended to just ignore me. However, some wiccan and other fringe religious groups are surprisingly easy to break into. Remind me to tell you all about the ins and outs of astral projection sometime. I’m told that buddhists as a faith are supposedly easygoing, but in my experience it seriously depends on the sect just like with every other religion (rinzei zen being about the most depressing religion on our planet today). I never looked into Hinduism, but by the time someone made me an offer I had already come back around to the various sects of Christianity and settled on one.

And I can tell you, the only way you can fully appreciate the implications of any religious practice is to try to live it.

You can ask all you want about “But why take communion?”, “Why spend an hour on a ten minute sweeping job?”, “Why do calisthenics while singing?”, “Why does the magic circle have to be widdershin?”, etc. Until you actually do it, with your full attention and an open heart, you won’t know. The only possible answer is the experience. The experience and thought process are the valuable part, not the mechanics or even the traditional explanation.

Many of the essential tenets of religious practice focus on the entire way you interact with the rest of the world, not just with God. And I’m not just talking about ethics. I’ve become something of a universalist with respect to ethics – almost any religion can teach you morality (except perhaps rinzei zen…). However, not all religions teach what you should know.

You say that answering your questions about God likely wouldn’t change your life. Probably true, but you might want to change your life if you intend to answer your questions about religious faith. There are so many things for which a verbal explanation or commandment provides insufficient understanding. To know it, you must experience it.

To understand what is preached, practice what is preached.

Palomar · 2005-07-17 10:47:37

*Interesting post, CM. When I broke with my parents' religion in my late teens, I "rested" a while -- sort of in a spiritual limbo. Then in my mid-20s I involved myself in alternative spiritualities.

In hindsight, I was looking to fill the void which leaving my parents' religion had left. I shunned religion, but sought solace and healing in spiritual expressions. I was truly concerned about my soul, the hereafter (which went from eternal reward or damnation to reincarnation considerations)...and later I realized ultimately I was going around in subjectivist circles. Some progress was made, but I realized later that progress was based on my ability to reason and think objectively (or try to anyway, ha ha).

As a child I was always interested in a variety of sciences, especially astronomy. Somehow I never considered there was "a gap." Science was science, religion was religion. I had both of them and there was no conflict.

After all that spiritual stuff from my mid-20s to mid-30s, I came back round to science and objectivity. It actually happened rather suddenly and unexpectedly, and I was able to fully see (hindsight again) how it'd all come about. Also, I realized that all my "spiritual seeking" was mostly due to the intense socialization in religious/spiritual concerns I'd had aggressively impressed upon me while growing up.

Science is for me. The only lingering concession I make to spirituality is Taoism. But that seems more a philosophy to me than a spirituality, although it can be that as well. If there is any true spiritual insight/comprehension, it is Tao...IMO. It is the most complete, all-encompassing and perfect non-science expression I've yet "discovered."

--Cindy

Dook · 2005-07-17 13:50:26

CM: Why do you feel you have to choose a certain faith? Baptist over Lutheran, Mormon over Jehovah’s Witness as if they are so very different, or as if the little differences are what matters. Why must people join groups? Can’t we all read the bible and learn from the stories the same as any religious leader? Don’t you know that is what’s expected of you? You have to save yourself.

Do you think your one specific faith has more of God’s attention? Why? Because you completely submerge during baptism when others just sprinkle a little water on the forehead? I’ve been in and heard all the debates. If you want tradition and rigid structure, symbolism and idolatry, then church is where it can be found but God will be waiting for you outside, in the real world, the one that recognizes that God intended for evolution to control the future of species. God doesn’t need you to go to church and take direction from a man. Instead He wants you to decide, to choose, to do no harm.

clark · 2005-07-17 16:27:08

And thus the irony... :laugh:

So on the one hand you have Dook faulting CM and those who find their connection to God within an organized religion, with rules and structure, and on the other hand you have Dook offering his own version of rules and structure, without the semblance of an organized religion.

Dook, I understand where you are coming from, but look at what you are saying. You are faulting organized religion because it assumes to knows gods wishes, yet you commit the same crime! You don't know what god wants, or how god wants it.

God doesn't need you to go to church, right? Well, does god mind if we do? What is the difference between us sitting in a church on Sunday, listening to words about or talking about God versus us posting questions and thoughts here on a Sunday?

Maybe you are right Dook, and maybe it doesn't matter. But then that doesn't mean that some people find value through church or some of the more organized religions.

Religion is an idea about god, much like sending humans to Mars is an idea. People like to to associate with others who share similar ideas- to shared thoughts on those ideas. Church and religion is no different.

There are many paths to god, or so I am told, and it seems to me that we each choose the path that is best for us. For some, it is a particular religion, for others, a book, and for some, just a vague idea they never really question or think about.

Dook · 2005-07-18 06:13:26

As I have said if someone needs to go to church to be a better person, to find God, then it is better than nothing at all. But at some point you should move out on your own because the church will hold you back. There is no room for vision in a rigid structure. God does not change but our understanding of the universe does. If tomorrow science discovers that intelligent life is plentiful in the universe can your rigid ‘human centered God’ structure withstand it? How shocked would most people be? The truth is the truth whether we choose to accept it or not. God created the universe the way He wanted, not the way the Pope wishes it to be.

Let me ask you a question, was Jesus God? Religion teaches us that they were the same being but the bible says Jesus was the son of God. The bible warns us not to worship idols or images but religion long ago overruled it and says it’s okay to wear a gold cross. Don’t follow them or me, read for yourself. Make up your own mind. You are responsible, not your pastor.

My own version of rules and structure? If you mean following the way of the truth always, even when it is unprofitable, even when it is a burden to you and you think it’s unfair, then I guess it is a rule. If you are not ready to do that then join a church that allows you to commit sin then simply confess and pay a small fine. You can commit the sin over and over there but God will be waiting outside for you to grow up.

Humans are extremely selfish beings, like animals but at least they have an excuse. There is only one way to God and that is to live the way of the truth always, not just on Sunday’s when you think He is watching. Do good without asking for benefit or payment in return.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-18 06:58:27

There is only one way to God and that is to live the way of the truth always, not just on Sunday’s when you think He is watching. Do good without asking for benefit or payment in return.

Which begs the question then, can one who does not believe in God yet "does good without asking for reward" find the way to God despite disbelief?

No need to answer, I'll find out for myself one of these days.

C M Edwards · 2005-07-18 10:58:33

CM: Why do you feel you have to choose a certain faith? Baptist over Lutheran, Mormon over Jehovah’s Witness as if they are so very different, or as if the little differences are what matters. Why must people join groups? Can’t we all read the bible and learn from the stories the same as any religious leader? Don’t you know that is what’s expected of you? You have to save yourself.

Dook, are you familiar with the philosophy of ecumenism? My current church's support of it is one of the primary reasons that I chose to join them. Basically, it's an acknowledgement of the fact that one religious belief can admit several equally valid religious practices. Mine is not a universalist church (remember - one religious belief), but we recognize the claim to truth of a long list of other sects, and furthermore both welcome them to communion with us and encourage our members to visit and work with other churches.

We are a Christian denomination, and I admit that this ecumenical practice isn't extended to non-christians (at least, not with the same openess). But a lutheran or a baptist is as welcome to come participate in every aspect of our church as I am. Every aspect. Becoming a priest might take a little extra time in seminary, depending on which denomination they originally came from, but they would be admitted.

I firmly believe that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. However, I won't badmouth someone over the volumetric capacity of their baptismal font. When it comes to spiritual journeys, whether you go is more important than where you go.

Also, about joining religious groups:

My main reason for joining a congregation wasn't safety in numbers, it was strength in numbers. Resources, not religion. Seventy people are more likely to produce twenty like-minded souls than twenty-one people are, and twenty like-minded people are more likely to accomplish something they set out to do than just one person.

Which is best, to be the guy sitting around wishing he could help, or to clean toilets for the other twenty who are helping? You can read the bible and learn more from its stories than the pope, but if you can't answer that question, you've learned nothing.

I prefer churches that make it easy to serve. If I really couldn't find a church in my area that I liked, I'd find some other charity to join. The servant is the basic measure of my religion, not the church. Whatever I sign on with, though, I prefer to have other like-minded servants with me once in a while. We just get more done that way.

A church can also help you, spiritually, if you're willing to learn and they're willing to teach. Being part of a group won't necessarily help your spiritual growth, but it can. Not every congregation is a collection of the frozen chosen.

clark · 2005-07-23 20:46:03

I find this all so fascinating. Don’t mind me. Just skip on by this scrawl on a wall as you peruse the meanderings of other aimless travelers who randomly happened by this stall, leaving their own indelible ink to stain the once blank and pristine canvas wall. Little electronic bits of ones and zeros all getting translated and retranslated as someone somewhere makes sense of it all.

God must love the atheist.

Think about it for a moment. This big creator, Mr. All Powerful, Lord (and Master) of Universe and Creation! And then comes this tiny sized pip-squeak of a being, infinitesimal in comparison to the grandeur of all existence, and says, “Eh, you ain’t so Great.”

If God could die, He would die from laughing!

That’s why I think God loves atheists the most. Have you seen His sense of humor?

This is the same God that “intelligently” designed the Platypus. Sure, you can say He has a design that our puny little minds simply cannot understand.

Sure, you can say that.

But me, I think God was having an off day (He is a work horse), and probably was blowing off a little steam. I mean, come on, the penguin alone is a riot. This little fat bird that can’t fly, just waddles along in the snow, occasionally sliding around in formal wear?

It’s like God is a comedian, and the Universe His private nightclub where He does His routine. Everything is this private little joke He is sharing with us. I think the religious types miss that. They’re too busy praying this, worshiping that, or talking about honoring and respecting the singular beauty of His works.

That’s exactly why God loves an atheist.

He gets an honest reaction out of them. Plus, I bet the atheists are a hoot in Heaven.

Imagine all these atheists, running around in Heaven, denying the existence of the all encompassing Love and Light. Every time God speaks, they clap their ears, chanting, “I can’t hear You.” Or all these people walking about in wisps of clouds, their robes billowing from an Unseen force, and the Nihilist’s clamoring, “There is nothing, there is no one!”

After all, God made us stubborn, so He must find that infinitely amusing, right?

So what could be more amusing than an atheist in heaven, still denying the existence of a God telling nothing but jokes? The religious types will always laugh at the jokes, once they realize that is what God wants. They aim to please.
But the atheists, when they finally come around, they will only laugh at the jokes that are really funny. Like the platypus, or the penguin.

God knows that an atheist isn’t worried about offending Him. So every time He succeeds in making an atheist laugh, He knows it was all well worth it.

So I guess what I am getting at, really, is that life is all about learning to take a joke.

And if God is listening right now, “Eh, You ain’t so great. But You’re pretty good.”

Dook · 2005-07-28 06:24:12

I think you should download the Hubble deep and ultra deep field pictures. The giant Hubble telescope stared at a dark and empty spot of space for 3 months and what did it find? It's full of stars! And galaxies. There are thousands of galaxies and stars in just that one, tiny, previously thought empty area of the sky.

You think the Creator of the universe wastes any time on one little planet that happens to have life when that is the purpose of the whole universe? Look at the deep field picture. There are trillions of other planets with life out there.

You can do so much or you can do nothing at all. Yet you would rather not have a choice and have your every action controlled.

There are no athiests in heaven. It's not punishment. It's their choice.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040309.html

clark · 2005-07-28 06:29:04

Eh, you ain't so great!

BWhite · 2005-07-28 06:51:54

So I guess what I am getting at, really, is that life is all about learning to take a joke.
And if God is listening right now, “Eh, You ain’t so great. But You’re pretty good.”

Ironic, no?

clark · 2005-07-28 07:08:34

You're pretty good.

C M Edwards · 2005-08-04 13:55:19

Perhaps a purely religious track isn't the most productive course for a discussion of materialism.

Has anyone looked into the simplicity movement? It's inspired by the ideas of Elaine St. James and other authors promoting the virtues of material simplicity over modern mass market culture. Many of these groups are religious in character, but their common philosophies are primarily taken from economics and business management theory, not their differing religious backgrounds.

Heres]http://www.simpleliving.net/seedsofsimplicity/]Here's just one example - a group centered at Cornell.

clark · 2005-08-04 14:48:54

I bet you still have to buy a book.

C M Edwards · 2005-08-04 16:25:40

I bet you still have to buy a book.

No, actually.

I'm sure they would recommend using the library, and be sure to ask for an extended due date, so you won't have to rush. 8)

clark · 2005-08-04 16:51:41

Hmmm... the whole thing just smacks of effort.

C M Edwards · 2005-08-05 19:59:17

Hmmm... the whole thing just smacks of effort.

Now you’re getting it!

The simplicity movement isn’t just about trying to organize your stuff, or being able to do more things. It sprang up in recognition of an important fact: Even though we have more labor saving devices than our ancestors, we spend more time working.

True, the simplicity movement is full of labor saving recommendations, such as “Avoid social events you dread,” “Don’t answer the phone just because it’s ringing,” and “Stop doing 'busy work' at work.” But those are just recommendations. If you decline to “Stop making the bed” because clean linen turns you on, you can still proceed to simplify your life. The fundamental point of the simplicity movement is: Once you clear time for yourself, don’t turn around and cram something else into it! “Take a break!” is the motto you should live by, not “I need a break!”

There’s more to it than just lounging around and letting your house go to pot, though. The simplicity movement is best thought of as covert Taylorism.

Taylorism (“scientific management”, “industrial engineering”, etc.) has gotten such a bad rap from industrialists using it to squeeze productivity out of hapless employees that people forget Frederick Taylor originally envisioned it as a two-way system. Just as its methods can be used by your boss to maximize your productivity so that he can get you to do more in the same time, you can use its methods to maximize your productivity so that you get the same work done in less time. And the fundamental rule of workplace simplicity is, you take the rest. Never waste your extra time by giving it all back to your boss. The simplicity movement is not saying be lazy, or make yourself unavailable. It’s saying carve out break time for yourself and keep it, even if it means finding a new job that will allow you to do this.

And that’s just the time management advice. Wait until you look into the economics. 8)

clark · 2005-08-05 20:48:20

How do you know it is the "End Times"? When process flow management is made into a fo-religion!

Industrial psychology? I know a thing or two.

The simplicity movement isn’t just about trying to organize your stuff, or being able to do more things. It sprang up in recognition of an important fact: Even though we have more labor saving devices than our ancestors, we spend more time working.

Which ancestors? Our ancestors also didn't have 300 cable channels either. They ate, they slept, and they mated. And they all died at the ripe old age of 35.

You're playing with numbers. By and large, our work is less intensive, less demanding, and less of a struggle for sheer existence. An academic point, I grant you, but lets compare apples to apples.

Perhaps we work more, but the choices and opportunity available to us in our leisure time is greater than what our ancestors experienced. The trick is to take time out to enjoy those new fangled leisure activities.

True, the simplicity movement is full of labor saving recommendations, such as “Avoid social events you dread,” “Don’t answer the phone just because it’s ringing,” and “Stop doing 'busy work' at work.” But those are just recommendations. If you decline to “Stop making the bed” because clean linen turns you on, you can still proceed to simplify your life. The fundamental point of the simplicity movement is: Once you clear time for yourself, don’t turn around and cram something else into it! “Take a break!” is the motto you should live by, not “I need a break!”

Enjoy the ride? Sold American! However, there is a danger in subscribing to any philosphy that tries to define how you should live your life. "Do what pleases," is a common refrain of the 70's libertarian movement, yet the excess of such behavior leads to all manner of ill net soical effects.

So we accept, "do what you must," but then why try for more? Isn't this idea espoused by the simplicity movement merely the first step towards unadulterated hedonism?

Just as its methods can be used by your boss to maximize your productivity so that he can get you to do more in the same time, you can use its methods to maximize your productivity so that you get the same work done in less time.

However, our social reward structure is based on "time". Productivity is a value based on time. How many widgets can X make in Y time? We trade our time, our only value that is easily quantified (as in segment of life), for something else in return. Say we can do the same work in less time- well, sure, we as individuals might benefit if we could keep the remainder of time, but we have already traded a segment of time to our employer. That extra time belongs to them, and thus they demand more work.

To expect otherwise is to achieve efficiency at the expense of productivity.

And that’s just the time management advice. Wait until you look into the economics.

Which side of the coin would you like to look at?

So, would this make God a foreman, or a union labor leader?

Josh Cryer · 2005-08-06 05:42:19

Shall I introduce the anarchist POV here?

You're playing with numbers. By and large, our work is less intensive, less demanding, and less of a struggle for sheer existence. An academic point, I grant you, but lets compare apples to apples.

Are you failing to account for, well, the vast majority of humans who work under squalor conditions to provide us with the things we want? Consider your $10 jeans at Wal-Mart made in India by people living in inhuman living conditions, or any plethroa of items in your house which undoubtedly have "Made in China" written on them.

Perhaps we work more, but the choices and opportunity available to us in our leisure time is greater than what our ancestors experienced. The trick is to take time out to enjoy those new fangled leisure activities.

I think you are failing to account for the vast majority of humans here. You're talking about the western world, and ignoring the reality for the rest of us. By "we" you're talking about Americans or Europeans, and whatnot. By "we" C M Edwards is more likely talking about all of humanity.

In the end, though, Americans have the longest working hours in the western world. Japan comes second. So what you're saying isn't even reflected by reality.

I personally think this minimalist movement is to complicated, but that's just me. I prefer things being even simplier.

clark · 2005-08-06 07:04:52

Are you failing to account for, well, the vast majority of humans who work under squalor conditions to provide us with the things we want? Consider your $10 jeans at Wal-Mart made in India by people living in inhuman living conditions, or any plethroa of items in your house which undoubtedly have "Made in China" written on them.

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you suggesting that by embracing the simplicity movement, i.e., not buying these things, we will somehow improve their lives and situation? I of course was speaking from a western perspective, because fortunetly, it is my perspective.

Let the Chinese wage slave throw in his 2 cents (a yuan?) worth.

I think you are failing to account for the vast majority of humans here. You're talking about the western world, and ignoring the reality for the rest of us.

The rest of "us"? Dude, you're as American as apple pie.

By "we" C M Edwards is more likely talking about all of humanity.

Well, maybe, but I don't think some dirt farmer in Africa is too interested or will find value in the teachings of process management.

The Simplicity movement is a result of "excess", and looks to unclutter cluttered lives. It is uniquely a western philopshy because the vast majority of the stinking world doesn't have our problem.

In the end, though, Americans have the longest working hours in the western world. Japan comes second. So what you're saying isn't even reflected by reality.

Dude, you even disagree with yourself- you are an anarchist.

If the bulk of humanity is working in sweat shops, then the bulk of humanity is working 6 and a half days a week with 10-14 hour shifts.

I personally think this minimalist movement is to complicated, but that's just me. I prefer things being even simplier.

Well, you can always sit naked on a mountain somewhere and let your beard grow out. That is about as simple as you can get. Good luck.

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#26 2005-07-15 17:19:27

Re: What Are You Doing?

#27 2005-07-15 17:37:02

Re: What Are You Doing?

#28 2005-07-16 05:13:08

Re: What Are You Doing?

#29 2005-07-16 23:59:48

Re: What Are You Doing?

#30 2005-07-17 03:57:33

Re: What Are You Doing?

#31 2005-07-17 10:11:57

Re: What Are You Doing?

#32 2005-07-17 10:47:37

Re: What Are You Doing?

#33 2005-07-17 13:50:26

Re: What Are You Doing?

#34 2005-07-17 16:27:08

Re: What Are You Doing?

#35 2005-07-18 06:13:26

Re: What Are You Doing?

#36 2005-07-18 06:58:27

Re: What Are You Doing?

#37 2005-07-18 10:58:33

Re: What Are You Doing?

#38 2005-07-23 20:46:03

Re: What Are You Doing?

#39 2005-07-28 06:24:12

Re: What Are You Doing?

#40 2005-07-28 06:29:04

Re: What Are You Doing?

#41 2005-07-28 06:51:54

Re: What Are You Doing?

#42 2005-07-28 07:08:34

Re: What Are You Doing?

#43 2005-08-04 13:55:19

Re: What Are You Doing?

#44 2005-08-04 14:48:54

Re: What Are You Doing?

#45 2005-08-04 16:25:40

Re: What Are You Doing?

#46 2005-08-04 16:51:41

Re: What Are You Doing?

#47 2005-08-05 19:59:17

Re: What Are You Doing?

#48 2005-08-05 20:48:20

Re: What Are You Doing?

#49 2005-08-06 05:42:19

Re: What Are You Doing?

#50 2005-08-06 07:04:52

Re: What Are You Doing?

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