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This is to move any discussion of "lunar robots under direct control from Earth" out of "Interplanetary Transportation.
Justification for putting it in this forum: human control of the robots makes it a "virtual" manned mission. The robots would be used to prepare for and maximize the value of manned missions to the moon.
"Mars relevance" is that it gets us doing *real* work in space, some of which may help us get useful robots for Mars, and by getting many more people involved and excited, it helps build support for space projects in general.
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A key part of the concept is to broaden "virtual" access to the moon, getting universities and students involved in projects centered on maximizing the value and expanding capabilities of the lunar robots.
Some project ideas:
- extracting lunar aluminum, other minerals, oxygen
- casting, spraying, "printing", other approaches to shaping useful things out of lunar materials
- "dirt pile" radiation shielding, thermal management, micro-meteorite protection experiments, for lunar shelters
- tunneling - how well does lunar soil hold together?
- prospect for ice at the south pole
- Robot and lunar simulators, for testing ideas, software, inspiring kids, etc.
- Robot self-training AI
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While you can control these things from Earth, Telerobotics Efficiency dictates a human presence on the same planet. That way we can make the big decisions in realtime, repair the funky bits, Inspect first hand, ect.
You could have a band of robo-ants scouring the martian surface for aluminium and returning to the nest with their sample.
Surface Mining could even be done on that scale.
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The D10 Caterpillar (a minimum for a telerobotic machine in power and usefulness) is 90 ton. Any telerobotic system of heavy construction machinery will be between fifty and a hundred tons fully assembled.
But a caterpillar type bulldozer will actually be of very little practicle use on the Moon and possibly Mars. Its down to how the surfaces of the Moon and Mar are made up. In the Moons case where we have actually investigated it we found the Moon to be about 11 to 13cm of very loose powdery regolith and after that the regolith is extremely compacted. A Caterpillar type bulldozer relies on its weight to "bite" into the surface and to then push the "soil" out. This may be impossible so other methods have to be thought about. We have talked about this before but instead of posting a link I will recap.
1) We dont use a blade at all but use a rotating set of brushes under a robot and the material is then scoured out.
2) We use the time old method of a drag chain pulling a Blade designed to dig itself in by its shape.
3) We Drill into the regolith and core what we need out.
4) We can loosen the Regolith by either chemical explosives or a more interesting idea of blasting air down small drilled areas and shifting the regolith that way.
What is more important is that these above methods do not need heavy equipment to be sent and if weight is needed to put on these vehicles we can sinter some bricks and have them installed on a Moon robot.
As we continue to reduce down to a non human presence, They become little more than a science project of limited time and usefulness
But that is where you are wrong the idea is to increase capacity on the Moon and elsewhere to lead us to go to Mars. In space where conditions are so foreign we must be able to increase our capacity for doing while reducing cost. And if using telerobotics on the Moon does this then we must use them. But note the Moon is about as far as we can go with that particular technology to be useful in base infrastructure creation as we run up against the great laws of physics in communication delays.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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For early base construction, you will obviously trade vehicle mass for how quickly you can get a given job done. A huge D-9 class bulldozer, or comperable digging machine, could move tens of cubic meters a day or soil... that isn't nessesarry, instead send something "Bobcat" sized that can move a fraction of a cubic meter at a time, but have it work for extended periods to prepare a given site.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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It is the capability to keep the robots working day after day, month after month that makes them such a desired option for base and industrial creation on the Moon. So they will not have the same capability as a Bulldozer on Earth but then again we need to increase the capacity to utilise the materials gained first.
And as we expand our capability we also increase the capability to expand the Human prescence on the Moon as well. If there is Air to breathe and places to stay already made for them and there is fuel to get the craft back to Earth and this increases it only makes for cheaper missions and therefore more of them.
Eventually we can export these resources to LEO etc then it makes for an increased capacity for all mans spaceflight. Who is to say we dont have the first Mars missions built of mostly lunar derived materials
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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I agree that lunar development should have some benefits for a Mars mission.
But the thing I like best about it is that it creates the potential for a lot more people to get involved in making space a place for humans - not just the "government experts" at NASA.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4678565.stm]BBC article on DARPA grand challenge
A robotic Humvee has manged to drive itself for seven hours without crashing on a race course in the US.
The Darpa Grand challenge is a race for purely autonomous vehicles to get across some very bad terrain and to do so in the fastest time. This also means that they will have to avoid all the usual terrain problems but also to make for certain target points given to the teams only a couple of minutes before the race starts.
Very apllicable technology for use on the Moon and Mars too.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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Yes the application of the Darpa challenge would be of use but thus far all events participants have done so poorly thus far. Also work telerobotically would also mean that the others must be able to right any that should tip over while in use on the moon as well.
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Yes in the last DARPA grand challenge no one succeeded in accomplishing the challenge. But DARPA just passed the prize onto this year and it is looking very very good for at least one team to do it. And though there are favourites it still appears that it will be just that a race.
Of course it is great for the science of robotics.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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It will happen before the requirements of automonous robotic units for moon and beyond. Current Processors are single core based when the dual / quad/ and octa - core microprocessors turn up in the next few years and the software language gets refined the vehicles will complete the DARPA Grand Challenge.
But the better way to function in space is a combination of team work between humans and droids. In this way the droids can functions as extensions of the humans and can accomplish more in practical terms.
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You can already get 96 odd proccessors in a fairly small package. (5RU)
Thing about the Darpa Grand is that you have to maintain an average of 18 Mph over unimproved terrain for 10 hours just to qualify. Thats actually pretty significant for a human driver.
Robots still have trouble following roads, so finishing the Darpa Grand will represent a HUGE leap forward in the state of the art.
Come on to the Future
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It is not the processor size that is the problem for a reasonably decent AI its the basic problem of how do you program intelligence or at least a reasonably cognitive capability. Not that it is that needed as many of the Grand Challenge robots will "learn" as they go on. It is how they "learn" that is the real interesting bit with being able to see then to actually recognize a problem then to work out a reasonable solution. And all at speed. hmm
Hard but getting very close to doable so say the 60+ teams that originally entered
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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DARAP's challenge is interesting - though way beyond what'd be needed for the moon, at least to get started.
However, it is relevant in that it provides a model for how we COULD be doing things on the moon - voluntary private and university involvement. NASA is trying with their challenges - but they don't seem to be willing to put any significant portion of their budget behind it yet. I suspect they think of their challenges more as a form of public relations, rather than as a serious "space program".
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DARAP's challenge is interesting - though way beyond what'd be needed for the moon, at least to get started.
However, it is relevant in that it provides a model for how we COULD be doing things on the moon - voluntary private and university involvement. NASA is trying with their challenges - but they don't seem to be willing to put any significant portion of their budget behind it yet. I suspect they think of their challenges more as a form of public relations, rather than as a serious "space program".
That would probobly be because NASA is right in that assumption.
The problem with more-or-less autonomous robots isn't processing power, we have that pretty well now, the problem is that we are running up against a wall about how complex the control software can get.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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That would probobly be because NASA is right in that assumption.
The problem with more-or-less autonomous robots isn't processing power, we have that pretty well now, the problem is that we are running up against a wall about how complex the control software can get.
I think you mis-understood my post. I'm not saying NASA needs to do more with autonomous robots. Quite the opposite.
I was saying that NASA isn't willing to go with "challenges" that would take a real budget allocation, instead of what is probably a small portion allocated out of their public relations budget.
A $200M or so budget for lunar tele-robots, to prepare the way for manned lunar missions, would count as "significant", I think.
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Nah, what I am saying is that NASA is probobly correct in assuming that the possible contestants for a prize-based procurement or big-ticket development item are not up to the task.
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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