Revolution - Which side are you on?

Socrates · 2004-09-02 20:38:17

Out of curiosity I would like to know what you would do in the following situation:

On Earth it's April 2,2139. The worst that's been feared has happened.

Ten years ago a war broke out between the United States and the Second Muslim Empire (SME). The Empire lost but was not destroyed and unfourtunatly some Martian colonists were discovered to be mercenary soldiers for the Empire (in exchange for a chance for some Martians to return to any families they might have left behind in Imperial territory). Worse the mercinaries carried out some of the most terrorist attacks against America for the Empire.

After that life became a living hell for Martians. Rights that normally aplied to Americans and, by de facto, Martians were stripped from the Martian colonists. Imprisonment without trial, political imprisonment, torture, military endraftment, government surviellence, and police brutality became the norm. All of this was done in the name of security from terrorist attacks, some of which were commited on Martian colonies, which provided vital revenue to the United States

This was not helped by the fact that Martians had, for years, been kept from developing thier own enterprises, implementing technologies they invented, imprisoned on their own world, and kept from making more colonies by draconian population controls.

For some time a small underground group called Liberty's Torch had been protesting (peacefully) the US rule of Mars and had been pushing for Martian independence under the banner of human rights, a direct democracy, and spreading mankind across the stars. Until recently the movement was small and obscure but with the neo-fascist laws established by the US, it became popular and, after the bloody New Plymouth Massacre, declared that only violent revolution could free Mars from the grip of the US.

Now, the day after the Battle of The New Athens Seventh Hemisphere Complex, the Liberty's Torch movement has won it's first victory. Now the colony is devided between Patriots; those still loyal to the red, white, and blue; and the Liberationists (or Libers), fighting for a free Mars.

As a citizen of Mars you must make a choice.

So which side would you fight on? Would you side with the Patriots, convinced that these laws are in place to protect all Martians from any more heinous attacks by the SME and that we should remain loyal to the US which is the homeland of many Martians? Besides the US is militarily stronger than Mars, so the US is more likely to win.

Some would side with the Libers saying that most Martians came here to escape persecution on Earth and if war is the only way to be free, then so be it. Besides if Mars can hold off the first wave they can throw of the second wave (which would take three months to get to Mars) by capturing the anti-spacecraft batteries built by the US and shooting the US reinforcements out of the sky with thier own batteries.

Of Course you might stay neutral (or at least try to) because you might think you can escape the carnage and that this war will be good for nothing.

By the way Earth and its other colonies have vowed to kill any Martians that try to escape Mars so flight is not an option.

mr mirana · 2004-10-09 05:05:50

I like the Lincoln quote. Reminds me of this, from DUNE. 'It is not that power corrupts, but that power is a magnet to the corruptable.'

Rxke · 2004-10-09 05:45:05

Looks like Socrates has left the boards after a flurry of postings... Check his profile...

Earthfirst · 2004-11-10 14:54:11

Earthfirst will side with Earth of crouse, and the USA because I am a citzeen of the republic!
Those mars people need to be taught a lesson for shedding American blood!
Mars will turn even redder with marsin blood, No one can out Terr a Terrian!
:laugh:
Their will be no Islamic empire, America wont let it happen.

~Eternal~ · 2004-12-05 15:32:08

Liberationist, America nor any Earth nation will conquer Mars once she is nation.

Omer Joel · 2005-01-12 05:20:07

Back after so many months...

I will support the Revolution, though not without reservations. Overthrowing a colonialist tyranny is a worthy cause; however, isolationism, even Martian isolationism, isn't. The Mars liberationists must make an appeal to their brethern on Earth, opressed both by Islamic reactoinaries and American militarists, an appeal to join them in revolt against opression and for direct democratic control over their destinies.

Even if the revolution on Earth would fail, a free Mars could give its support to the Earther masses, help them to re-organize and to fight for the same goal - not only planetary sovriegnity, but true democracy and overthrowing the opressive generals, beurocracts, mullahs and corporations.

Mars must carry the flag of true freedom and mass democracy (including democratic control over the economy), or it will be isolated and will, eventually, be outnumbered and out-produced by the forces of tyranny.

Commodore · 2005-01-12 21:55:23

I'm for a united, democratic human goverment spanning were ever humans go. Wheres my party?

So clearly the problem is Earth. For some reason those fighting for the Islamo-Fascists were allowed to leave Earth. I don't believe being a merc doesn't give you geneva convention POW rights. They are instead spys.

That said, thats no excuse to make life of the average Martian miserable. They are mercs, not zealots, and are probably looking for a new, peaceful life on Mars.

So sign me up for the opposition party in the US.

Cobra Commander · 2005-01-13 06:00:03

So the impression I get is that a faction of "democracy fundamentalists" seek the violent overthrow of the colonial government on which the citizenry depend through open revolution in order to establish an idealistic but ultimately unattainable vision, wrenching territory from the US in time of war and killing untold numbers of people in the process. Not only is their goal flawed, but if these "libers" can't see that a subtle subversion or even a carefully orchestrated (and contained) coup is preferable to open revolution I cannot in good conscience side with them. They are criminals and terrorists and will be treated accordingly.

So I endeavor to distinguish myself in the brief campaign to wipe them out in order to more easily attain broad public support after staging a coup years down the line, seizing the apparatus of government intact with little ill effect to the general population.

Martian Republic · 2005-01-15 18:29:42

I think it would make little difference which way it play's out as fare as Mars goes.

If we don't have a constitutional government based on the General Welfare with the government having control over the money supply and direction the economy of Mars, it really wouldn't make any difference. Sustaining a Mars colony would become not functional and would cease to function as a viable economy. At that point, it would make any difference who won, the Martian Civilization would be no more.

The Martian colony would have to go neutral if they could with the above type of policy or it would be all over for them.

Larry,

Trebuchet · 2005-01-15 19:51:36

I am organizing a counter-revolution against Martian Republic. There isn't enough room for the two of us on Mars... and we ain't even there yet. ^_^

I'm against most revolutions.

JammerG55 · 2005-01-20 15:13:38

i am all for the liberationists because using american history as a guide once mars has gained its own independence it will never be take from it. by any one.

Gennaro · 2005-01-22 21:33:33

Muslim terrorists, huh?

Really, this is all just nonsense.

Thomas Martianson · 2005-06-25 12:51:39

:angry: The Patriots. "True Democracy" and "..democratic control of the economy" are but code phrases for socialism.
It appears that the Culture War will rage on Mars even though we aren't even there yet, LOL.
The History of Colonization shows a definite trend in that colonies are usually established by the dissenters and rejects of the parent society. So who winds up on Mars will be determined by who wins the Culture War in the here and now.
As increasing population density lends itself to the proliferation of law; it would seem that here on Earth, the Leftist will ultimately prevail; freedom has been in flight from the smothering masses throughout history; so in my opinion it will be the Conservatives that eventually colonize Mars; the ultimate in "white flight" LMAO.
It has been Western ideas and Western values that have brought Mankind this far; it will be whatever remains of Western Civilization that takes it further.

Fledi · 2005-06-25 15:57:32

Yeah and Chinese gunpowder and Arabic mathematics among other things.

Stormrage · 2005-06-28 19:53:57

This is bull shit and i will explain it in bullet points.

1: I'm a muslim and i can tell you there will never be a muslim empire beacuse muslim like Christians are divided by there nationality more then they are unified by there religon. Has there ever been a United Christian Kingdom of Europe after the fall of the Byzantine Empire?

2: Second Muslim Empire? Why the hell is it second?

3: Did you know that Islam is the fastest growing Religon? If the trend continues there will be more muslims then other Religon. So there will be alot of muslims in the west

4: America? Are you kidding? America is beginning to lose a grip of its superpower status especially know when China is growing fast.

5: Mars will not take bull shit from any country. Mars will be to far for a USA to properly exert there force on and by the time they can we will be a soverigen world that can have 6 months to get ready to beat space weary soldiers.

6: The War on Terror is ending. Iraq is a big disaster. All it did was waste the budget of the USA and give osama bin laden more reqruits.

Trebuchet · 2005-06-30 17:26:25

3: Did you know that Islam is the fastest growing Religon? If the trend continues there will be more muslims then other Religon. So there will be alot of muslims in the west

It's the fastest growing religion - in Islamic countries, and in European countries with open immigration. Elsewhere, Islam is not growing nearly as fast as Christianity, and most would not consider adding millions of hungry mouths to what are mostly desert countries depending on a finite resource for their surivival to be a viable long-term strategy.

4: America? Are you kidding? America is beginning to lose a grip of its superpower status especially know when China is growing fast.

China has last-mover advantage; it's growing very fast because it modernized very late. It's basically copying what worked for the US, Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc, and because it's copying the process of industrialization, it's basically able to hurry up in its process of catch-up. China also has massive problems of bad debt, severaly uneven growth, and a whole host of other growing pains which it will have to muddle through. It is very, very unlikely that China will surpass the US in the coming century. It probably will surpass Europe, but that's only because Europe is staring demographic meltdown in the face.

As for the US losing its grip on superpower status, please. The US in the world resembles nothing more than some champion boxer being harassed by a crowd of children and surly teenagers. He knows that he could basically stomp them flat, and might even fantasize about doing it, but knows that no matter how satisfying smashing the little twerps might be, it's not worth the hassle in today's media-soaked world. Teenagers in that sort of situation tend to mistake that sort of mixture of stoic indifference and self-restraint to weakness and egg the guy on until he snaps.

6: The War on Terror is ending. Iraq is a big disaster. All it did was waste the budget of the USA and give osama bin laden more reqruits

Actually, the jihadis are falling out and duking it out among themselves. Some groups have given up - anybody heard from Muqtada Al-Sadr lately? The difference between Baghdad now and Baghdad last year is amazing. Elections have come and gone, there aren't any major insurgent controlled areas like Sadr City and Fallujah. The Iraqi police and army are acting independently and reasonably well. Most of Bin Laden's recruits are dying in-place there.

The war in Iraq is a success so far by pretty much any objective standard: tyrant deposed, free government instated, insurgency downgraded from major threat to major nuisance.

Trebuchet · 2005-06-30 17:40:22

By the way, with regard to 'the fastest growing religion' bit - this has implications for space travel, as well - there is an interesting dynamic at work.

Islam has a higher rate of growth due solely due to natural increase. After countries fully convert to an industrialized or postindustrial economy, the birth rate tends to drop to an equilibrium level (many European countries are *below* equilibrium, but that will only last a generation or so - Darwin solves that problem nicely). In the 1800's, it was Christianity, in the process of industrializing, that grew like crazy. Christianity's heartlands nowadays are mature postindustrial states with comparatively static populations. In the US, which tends to assimilate immigrants much more effectively, Muslims more or less match the religiously Christian portions of the population in reproduction. In non-industrialized countries, Christianity actually beats Islam on growth rate (roughly the same birth rate, but Christianity converts people at a somewhat higher rate).

Now, to apply this to Mars, I see a problem. We're looking at colonizing a planet. For various reasons - cost, complexity, travel time - it will be a long time before mass immigration to Mars will be possible. However, the hypothetical Martian colony will basically be starting off with a postindustrial economy, with its implied almost-equilibrium birthrate. How does this thing grow?

clark · 2005-07-01 06:25:26

How does this thing grow?

Well, when a man and a woman really love each other...

And they say education is failing our young! :laugh:

Palomar · 2005-07-01 06:40:57

*Every time I see this thread, I think of the Beatles song.

Why anticipate a major revolution on Mars? Sure, the opposite could be asked as well (why not?).

I dunno...I'm still hoping for a group of private citizens (scientists mostly, of various disciplines) to settle Mars, to have some genuine protection of their colony, that it will grow and prosper in relative peace and orderliness. Considering all the hardships they'll initially face...but then they'd better take care to try and build as cohesive and cooperative a society as possible, because future generations who are better off and take things for granted would be more inclined towards carelessness.

Maybe some sort of revolution would occur and might even be inevitable. But who knows?

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.

:laugh: My favorite line from the song.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-01 07:13:32

How would a revolution on Mars work?

Surely it would depend heavily on the technology available at the time but fighting on a planet incapable of sustaining human life without significant technological assistance changes the rules. If you want to revolt you have essentially two options, leave if the technology allows for it, or terrorism. If you can survive outside the colony, just go somewhere else. If you can't then you have to fight inside it, leaving terrorist acts because amassing an army under such conditions would be exceedingly difficult if not impossible.

Given current trends in technological development I see no reason for a Martian Revolution to be necessary, small groups of people will likely be able to provide for themselves in the foreseeable future and there's a whole lot of land to spread out into.

If there is a revolution on Mars, it will be entirely the fault of the revoltee pursuing them for the sole purpose of exerting control.

So let the fascists and commies go and give it a shot.

clark · 2005-07-01 07:15:38

How would a revolution on Mars work?

You push the 'off' button.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-01 07:23:29

You push the 'off' button.

Another danger of overly centralized government.

clark · 2005-07-01 07:35:59

No, more the danger of simply living on Mars.

Revolution is the result of dissatisfaction with the status quo, and a desire to affect change coupled with the perception that change can only occur through defiance against the system that perpetuates the status quo. Defiance can take many forms, but they all seek the same result.

The problem with Mars though is that the environment is so hostile and the requirement to maintain life so fragile, that violent revolution by just a few is all that is required.

In essence, (I’ve used this metaphor before) every person on Mars is the equivalent of a nuclear power on Earth. Any single person could conceivably destroy everyone else.

You can defend against this, to a degree, but most would not like it. [shrug]

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-01 07:43:53

In this case I agree with most of your points, but I'm also forced to take an almost. . . Joshian view of the technological factors. We're at the point where the means required for self-contained support for very small groups has moved away from if and is now in the territory of when.

In that case the only reason for a violent revolt would be if one side or the other were complete nutjobs. If I were on the revolutionary side I'd rather just move than fight it out and if I were the authority being revolted against I'm not going to be too concerned about a disgruntled faction leaving. Makes everything so much easier.

Of course when the population gets to the point that vast expanses of empty land are no longer available the issue becomes more troublesome, but if we plan it right we'll have partial terraforming done by then and can fight our wars the old fashioned way, outside in crappy weather.

clark · 2005-07-01 07:56:31

In that case the only reason for a violent revolt would be if one side or the other were complete nutjobs.

Ah, but the size of matters change!

You naturally reference “sides”, a common standard resulting from a terran experience. Now walk in Martian boots for a moment…

If one person can destroy all, then sides become irrelevant. One person, say a Uni-bomber, or singular nut-job of that sort, can have their own private revolution.

Imagine if you will someone like you, who is willing to take action, but on Earth would need comrades to effect the change he might want. On Mars, alone, he could do it.

There is the fundamental instability in any Martian scenario, and ultimately why I consider the libertarian ideal for Mars to be DOA. Communism, Democracy, Monarchies, whatever- all of these social experiments have all been attempt by the meta-human to reduce and/or control the level at which revolutions occur.

So the conundrum (which plays into Josh’s weird musings), what kind of society can flourish on mars where the individual holds supreme power, yet survival is dependant upon the group? Here on Earth, we balance supreme power among groups, and survival is not completely dependant upon the entire group.

The only answer for Mars is CELSS and anarchy. :laugh: In order for society to work, on mars, the individual and society need to be able to divorce from one another. Or at the very least, not threaten one another and identify nutjobs early on.

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Re: Revolution - Which side are you on?

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Re: Revolution - Which side are you on?

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Re: Revolution - Which side are you on?

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