Communism - Just like Star Trek

Stormrage · 2005-06-25 13:48:48

If we ever plan to colonise and do succeeded we can't turn it into what America and UK are today. Big corporate companies running around and doing what ever they want while the poor people have to suffer. We should be more like the Federation of Star Trek who are communist. Everyone get what all they need and the only thing to do in your spare time is to pursue knowledge. That would increase the number of people over average.

Well not begin to communist we can have democratic votes every 5 years but not like we have today. The politicians won't go on TV smearing slander on each others. They just state what they are going to do and nothing else. We will also be separate from Earth and won't take any orders from any country. Everyone living in Mars won't be British,american but humans (Martian is name for species native to mars).

That way mars won't be divided into pieces like Antarctica.

A horrible end to the teraforming is if a single country claims Mars (namely USA/Russia).

Fledi · 2005-06-25 16:07:22

That would increase the number of people over average.

If everyone gets smarter then the average will rise and these smart people will not be above average then.

That system didn't work out too well here on Earth, I'm ...eehm ... somewhat sceptical about it.

Based on these last postings I have some doubts that the colonists will make it to Mars with all the commies and facsists beating up each other in the colony transport enroute.

Stormrage · 2005-06-25 16:12:14

That would increase the number of people over average.
If everyone gets smarter then the average will rise and these smart people will not be above average then.
That system didn't work out too well here on Earth, I'm ...eehm ... somewhat sceptical about it.
Wht
Based on these last postings I have some doubts that the colonists will make it to Mars with all the commies and facsists beating up each other in the colony transport enroute.

I ment the average of today here on earth. The only reason why the Russia communism didn't work out was because they spent all of there resources on military technology and forgot about there citizens.

Why would Facists and commies fight each other? Fighting in a space ship is a REALLY REALLY stupid idea.

idiom · 2005-06-25 16:19:36

A bad idea never stopped anyone.

Russian Communism failed under paranoid leasership and general execution of intellectuals as the enemy of the poor people.

Stormrage · 2005-06-25 16:28:49

A bad idea never stopped anyone.
Russian Communism failed under paranoid leasership and general execution of intellectuals as the enemy of the poor people.

Well My Mars Communism is promoting more scientists and if anyone is enemy of the planet we could just deport them to Earth.

Fledi · 2005-06-25 16:59:10

Oh, that sort of idea. There is this guy srmeaney, who has a complete plan for this, I suggest you read up on the "Who governs Mars" thread, it's a great funny piece of conversation.

reddragon · 2005-06-25 18:02:20

The only reason why the Russia communism didn't work out was because they spent all of there resources on military technology and forgot about there citizens.

Also because they were totalitarian, stifled dissent and thus thought, and created a system where you often couldn't advance based on individual merit.

el scorcho · 2005-06-25 21:28:14

Ask Cuba how that whole "socialist utopia" thing is working out.

Those evil corporations that are running around? Nine times out of ten, they're the poor's only chance of employment. I admit that capitalism isn't perfect and that people get trampled unfairly; but it's the best system we have. Capitalism fosters creativity, economic growth, and individual liberty. Compare that to any communist system that has ever existed.

Josh Cryer · 2005-06-26 04:30:28

Stormrage,

Big corporate companies running around and doing what ever they want while the poor people have to suffer.

If you do the numbers, you might note that it is extremely difficult for anyone to profit in space. The technology required to survive in space is rather high level, and high level technology can potentially be shared relatively easily and cheaply.

So once you're going into space, there really is nothing up there except raw resources that can be profitable (in the inner solar system, energy is so abundant you don't have to worry about it). I have written many times about how those resources are better off benefitting the locality (ie, shipping ore from Mars to Earth is extremely expensive, and stupid).

In the end you can show how space can be profitable, but with higher level technology we can show the exact converse.

We should be more like the Federation of Star Trek who are communist. Everyone get what all they need and the only thing to do in your spare time is to pursue knowledge.

Star Trek is not communist, so much fascist. Communism entails that the government and people "provide everything" yet, clearly, in Star Trek, everything is provided by the technology. What you have are these military-type space ships with lots of technology (replicators being the most notable technology; of course, my favorite, are things that "can't" be replicated, as if there's some magical boundry as to what can and can not be created) to keep everyone going. I imagine that life outside of the Federation is far more enjoyable (though I can imagine ships that are not run as fascist or military systems).

We will also be separate from Earth and won't take any orders from any country.

Well, this is obvious.

Mars is far enough from Earth that it can easily be considered sovereign. Even with the advent of fast nucular ships we'd still be some ways off, and it would be prohibitively expensive to travel there.

Fledi,

Based on these last postings I have some doubts that the colonists will make it to Mars with all the commies and facsists beating up each other in the colony transport enroute.

Hah! I haven't been around lately, but I know some of our posters here, and I can just imagine the discussions that have been going on. I'm going to have to read back. Takes a bit of time to do that though.

idiom,

Russian Communism failed under paranoid leasership and general execution of intellectuals as the enemy of the poor people.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say. The government wanted power. If you talk to older Russians to this day, you will find that they have this compassionate mindset, they're good people. Their government screwed them, essentially.

Stormrage,

Well My Mars Communism is promoting more scientists and if anyone is enemy of the planet we could just deport them to Earth.

Deporting people is extremely expensive. And how would you prevent them from coming back on another ship? Tagging? DNA scans? I mean, it's possible, but just think about it, you'll wind up building this complex system that in the end cannot survive. Perhaps a move away from more government, rather than toward, is the way to go. Think about it. Can we have no government on Mars? Certainly the technology is going to give us the benefits of "communism" (that is, the equality of living conditions).

reddragon,

Also because they were totalitarian, stifled dissent and thus thought, and created a system where you often couldn't advance based on individual merit.

And the government did this to increase its own power. It's a self-perpetuating paradigm. Government needs more power, so it takes power away from the populations.

This is indeed why I think a move away from government is the best solution. Really, what use is government, anyway?

el scorcho,

Ask Cuba how that whole "socialist utopia" thing is working out.

I've been to Cuba. They're surprisingly well programmed, as the ones that are there love their country for the most part. The bad part is that they live in squalors and, well, with sanctions that cannot be avoided.

And the irony is that Cuba is more of a corporate state than the government wants people to believe. The "wealthy" Cubans work for the tourist industry, subsidizing the rest of the population that way. It's kind of sad, really. I mean, they're a very intelligent peoples, but there is oppression, in the end I am certain that they would embrace a mix between a socialist-capitalist system (like how Europe has, which for Cuba would be much easier to sustain because of the lower population and the already redistributed wealth).

I admit that capitalism isn't perfect and that people get trampled unfairly; but it's the best system we have. Capitalism fosters creativity, economic growth, and individual liberty.

Do the math, my friend. Just do the math. Doesn't come out in the markets favor, I'm afraid. Not if you take into account high level technology...

Fledi · 2005-06-26 06:00:04

Fledi,
Quote
Based on these last postings I have some doubts that the colonists will make it to Mars with all the commies and facsists beating up each other in the colony transport enroute.

Hah! I haven't been around lately, but I know some of our posters here, and I can just imagine the discussions that have been going on. I'm going to have to read back. Takes a bit of time to do that though.

Ok, ok was just joking with that, people here seem to be quite rational no matter what their political attitude is.

RobertDyck · 2005-06-26 07:52:59

The politicians won't go on TV smearing slander on each others. They just state what they are going to do and nothing else.

You could do that now. One of the nice things about planning a futuristic society placed on a far-off location like Mars is to imagine what can be done, and what can be changed. Once you realize that, those changes don't require a far-off location. Do it now and do it here. Strongly criticize any politician who slanders his/her opponent. Criticize any politician who attempts to run on "character" rather than policies, platform, or saying what he/she will do once elected. Stand up at rallies and make these criticisms at the microphone in front of everyone. Write op/ed articles in the local newspaper. Get involved. It has often been said that democracy is advanced citizenship; if you don't get involved you are doomed to be oppressed by fascists and dictators.

Palomar · 2005-06-26 11:25:11

*To be quite blunt and frank: Yes, I do think a lot of corporations are evil.

1. Campbell's in the early 1990s. Resorted to massive "downsizing" targeting older employees just about to retire, thereby cheating those decades-long employees out of their promised pensions.

2. Enron and similar corps in the early 2000s: Cooking the books (lying and fraud), cheating investors, causing hundreds of employees to lose their 401(k) money (at least half of which money came from their own paychecks). One former Enron employee lost tens of thousands of 401(k) savings; by the time his bosses got done screwing around with the books, the employee was left with $600.00.

3. Corporate welfare anyone? They get in a bind/pickle/whatever and who bails the assholes out? The taxpayer.

4. Sure the corps provide lots of jobs. Because they squeeze out/squash any competition and become almost monopolies. Independent/small businesses are essentially screwed from the get-go. Independent/small business also provide jobs. And what if I want to work for myself/be my own boss? It's getting more and more difficult to do that.

5. The corporations call the shots in D.C.; lots of politicians are their paid-off puppets (lavish parties, perks, high-priced favors, on and on). Now the corporations are giving the Supreme Court marching orders, apparently.

I'm not interested in being a serf to the nobility. But it seems America has gone full circle from its break with Europe and its former serf/noble-landlord oppression.

The American Dream is being stomped into the ground by the Corporate Boot and I'm not interested in licking that boot.

Unless, of course, lying, cheating, fraud and bribery are considered good and desirable attributes.

My 2 cents' worth.

--Cindy

P.S.: And isn't it "interesting" that as the employee gets more and more benefits/raises taken away, the CEOs get ever-fatter salaries, perks, etc.? Gosh, what a coincidence.

Martian Republic · 2005-06-26 14:29:23

Ask Cuba how that whole "socialist utopia" thing is working out.
Those evil corporations that are running around? Nine times out of ten, they're the poor's only chance of employment. I admit that capitalism isn't perfect and that people get trampled unfairly; but it's the best system we have. Capitalism fosters creativity, economic growth, and individual liberty. Compare that to any communist system that has ever existed.

Actually, Capitalism is no better than Communism and in some cases is even worse than Communism. Real British style Capitalism does not cause Creativity, economic growth or liberty either. Matter of fact, it promotes slavery and economic collapse and a backward society too. So for all intense and purposes, Capitalism is not any better than Communism is. What George Bush is doing in Iraq is an example of Capitalism in motion. You have to militarily beat other country down and force them to trade with you to make Capitalism work. But, at some point, forcing Capitalism to function at the point of a gun on other nation will also fail too and then the Capitalistic system will collapse after that.

Now if you want to talk about the American Economic System or some variation of it creating being the driver of Creativity, economic Growth or liberty then I would agree with you.

Larry,

Martian Republic · 2005-06-26 14:45:04

*To be quite blunt and frank: Yes, I do think a lot of corporations are evil.
1. Campbell's in the early 1990s. Resorted to massive "downsizing" targeting older employees just about to retire, thereby cheating those decades-long employees out of their promised pensions.
2. Enron and similar corps in the early 2000s: Cooking the books (lying and fraud), cheating investors, causing hundreds of employees to lose their 401(k) money (at least half of which money came from their own paychecks). One former Enron employee lost tens of thousands of 401(k) savings; by the time his bosses got done screwing around with the books, the employee was left with $600.00.
3. Corporate welfare anyone? They get in a bind/pickle/whatever and who bails the assholes out? The taxpayer.
4. Sure the corps provide lots of jobs. Because they squeeze out/squash any competition and become almost monopolies. Independent/small businesses are essentially screwed from the get-go. Independent/small business also provide jobs. And what if I want to work for myself/be my own boss? It's getting more and more difficult to do that.
5. The corporations call the shots in D.C.; lots of politicians are their paid-off puppets (lavish parties, perks, high-priced favors, on and on). Now the corporations are giving the Supreme Court marching orders, apparently.
I'm not interested in being a serf to the nobility. But it seems America has gone full circle from its break with Europe and its former serf/noble-landlord oppression.
The American Dream is being stomped into the ground by the Corporate Boot and I'm not interested in licking that boot.
Unless, of course, lying, cheating, fraud and bribery are considered good and desirable attributes.
My 2 cents' worth.
--Cindy
P.S.: And isn't it "interesting" that as the employee gets more and more benefits/raises taken away, the CEOs get ever-fatter salaries, perks, etc.? Gosh, what a coincidence.

Oh, you preaching Capitalism Cindy!

And I thought Capitalism was suppose to be good too.

Larry,

Josh Cryer · 2005-06-26 16:30:20

Fledi,

Ok, ok was just joking with that, people here seem to be quite rational no matter what their political attitude is.

Oh yeah, I knew you were joking (thus the "Hah!"), it's just that we do get some heated debates here! Just check the Political Potpourri thread! (A creation I started, but sometimes wish I didn't, heheh, then again, it has served its purpose quite well, taking the political debates away from the rest of the threads here; for the longest time Bush talk was in a Human Missions thread, though for the most part it was on topic, it often swayed off and on again.)

Cindy, the true irony is that corporations result in outsourcing at this point, so, local benefits are overseas rather than actually, uh, local.

However, I think all this is going a bit off topic, so let's not hijack Stormrage's thread too much, okay?

reddragon · 2005-06-26 17:45:50

Really, what use is government, anyway?

To protect the rights of the people.

That I think is the only just function of a government, and unfortunately the need for a government of some sort to do this seems to be unavoidable at present. Certainly if we could all live happily and peacefully without any government I'd want to move away from government too.

This basic function of government is very open to interpretation. It can be considered to require anything from an ultra-libertarian, laissez-faire capitalist society to a planned economy police-state. I go for a democratic-republic with moderate restrictions on business and only really necessary ones on the individual and a government that enforces the necessary laws but refrains from making an overly complex or over-bearing code of law. Even this is, of course, very open to interpretation.

One thing that I think my interpretation of the role of government does unquestionably demand is a move away from the often religious inspired laws to protect the morals of the people and from laws that only protect people from their own idiocy. (This second one gets difficult in the realm of drugs which usually harm the user the most but often harm others to a lesser extent. For example I believe that laws to limit people's exposure to second-hand smoke in public places are justified.)

Stormrage · 2005-06-26 18:32:20

However, I think all this is going a bit off topic, so let's not hijack Stormrage's thread too much, okay?

I just happy that people are in my thread and taking some of the things seriously.

Here is what i am thinking of. A sorf of Modern day society/Communist.

We will have a 5 level system. Each level will give a person a certain amount of credits which is the money. This will allow us to get stuff from the local shops/convenient depot. The Levels will depend on how much education the person has and if they are doing a job that will benifit the society. Like street cleaning or being a doctor.
The work indusry will be divided into three.

Law enforcment (Military,Police and Lawyers)
Science Department (Doctors,Researchers,Scientist)
Operations (Public transport driver,Teacher,Asteroid mining)

We can derive our energy source by mining Asteroid making sure we won't pollute our world like we did on Earth. We can also research into quick DNA scanners installed on Front doors of houses (it won't record the DNA of people living there). The DNA scanners can also be fitted into other areas of the City to make sure that tourists who visit us won't stay longer then they are allowed.

Why do i think this idea is better then the present society we have today?

Today's society especially in amercia. Big companies can controll what law passes through by funding a political candidate. If that candidate is elected he would will do what the companies want to do. Capitalism gives most of the wealth to the few groups of people who managed to climb the wealth ladder succesfully. In my kinda society everyone is equal. If the Martian world government didn't want anyone to do pollute the environment by they won't be pressured by big corporations.

This kinda Idea will only work in Mars. In a Earth today No single country will do this and it will only work if all country join together. Countries don't trust each other. Sure UK and USA are best of friends but are we the british and the americans willing to join into a single country? No beacuse National pride will be in the way.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-27 08:35:31

This is "Nice Try Utopian Scheme" number what now? I lost track somwhere around that nutty Commonwealth thing.

Sure, capitalism has its ugly sides. But it has the one redeeming virtue of being better overall than any other system tried. Martian Republic's odd view of it notwithstanding. But let's see what we have here. . .

We will have a 5 level system. Each level will give a person a certain amount of credits which is the money. This will allow us to get stuff from the local shops/convenient depot. The Levels won't depends on how much education the person has and if they are doing a job that will benifit the society. Like street cleaning or being a doctor.
The work indusry will be divided into three.
Law enforcment (Military,Police and Lawyers)
Science Department (Doctors,Researchers,Scientist)
Operations (Public transport driver,Teacher,Asteroid mining)

Perhaps it's just me, but this doesn't seem to be explained as clearly as it warrants. How is a specific profession's place in this scale determined? That could make or break this system.

I'm leaning toward break, but I'm highly skeptical of this sort of thing.

On a more basic level, if these "wage scales" are applied to all endeavors the primary incentive for innovation will be removed. People work hard, take risks and improve upon old ways of doing things for essentially one reason, to profit themselves. Lock them into a rigid scale and why will anyone bust their butt?

Unless you mean to start an endless war, 1984 style that props up the economy and provides external pressure. An approach with limited utility, but perhaps viable until something better is worked out.

Essentially it comes down to under capitalism some people lose, under communism everyone loses. I like that first set of odds better.

Palomar · 2005-06-27 08:56:24

Essentially it comes down to under capitalism some people lose, under communism everyone loses. I like that first set of odds better.

*To a point I am pro-capitalism. But when it comes down to situations like the Enron executives -- no. Is that even capitalism anymore? Or simple knavery?

I previously thought I knew the definition of capitalism: Win/win. Or the attempt at same.

All this knavery and fraud, lying and cheating...apparently my understanding of the definition of "capitalism" was originally in error, or the definition has changed.

I thought capitalism was supposed to be a somewhat noble "honest reward for honest work/effort" thing. Not all this brazen thievery and massive deceit/fraud so rampant.

I wonder if Ayn Rand would rethink her opinion of capitalism, were she still alive. It's become just as rapacious and destructive in some (though not all) respects as dreaded communism.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-27 09:13:07

I wonder if Ayn Rand would rethink her opinion of capitalism, were she still alive. It's become just as rapacious and destructive in some (though not all) respects as dreaded communism.

Corruption is not a part of capitalism's design any more than gulags are a facet of communist theory. When plans hit reality, dirt gets in. Corporate corruption is really just stealing and that goes on under any economic system. It hardly damns capitalism.

But what's the most destructive aspect of the recent corporate scandals? Who got screwed? The employees and the taxpayers. Why?

The employees lost the bulk of their pensions and the taxpayers foot the bill for the pittance they receive as a consolation prize.

The greatest evil currently attributed to capitalism in America today is in fact the result of people being dependent on other entities and expecting them to provide for their future in one way or another. Not a very capitalistic idea.

"Corporate communism"

Palomar · 2005-06-27 09:29:40

The greatest evil currently attributed to capitalism in America today is in fact the result of people being dependent on other entities and expecting them to provide for their future in one way or another. Not a very capitalistic idea.
"Corporate communism"

*Yeah, I see your point. But what to do? We're so squeezed in there's really very few places to be but within the monster.

It's no longer the seemingly endlessly expansive "West" with boundless opportunities for independence.

Or so it seems (sure seems to me, anyway).

Back to the serfs/nobles-landowners thing. The more things change the more they stay the same...(sorry, but it's an apt saying).

--Cindy

reddragon · 2005-06-27 11:54:02

This is "Nice Try Utopian Scheme" number what now? I lost track somwhere around that nutty Commonwealth thing.

I think Stormrage's communism is a bit better than the Commonwealth. It doesn't seem to expect everyone to just agree on what is ethical and right and then do it.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and it's always good to consider alternatives, but I think that some form of Capitalism is probably the best economic system we can have.

I previously thought I knew the definition of capitalism: Win/win. Or the attempt at same.
All this knavery and fraud, lying and cheating...apparently my understanding of the definition of "capitalism" was originally in error, or the definition has changed.
I thought capitalism was supposed to be a somewhat noble "honest reward for honest work/effort" thing. Not all this brazen thievery and massive deceit/fraud so rampant.

American capitalism has probably declined since the advent of big corporations in the middle and late 19th century. Before that most businesses were local things and it was easier for someone to just start a small private business and make a living at it. A storekeeper in Massachusetts didn't have to compete with one in California. I suppose, though, corporations are part of the natural evolution of capitalism, and as has been pointed out in the Political Potpourri thread they're certainly not all evil all the time.

Sometimes people just nead a chance to start over. So let's give them that chance in the New World of Mars.

Stormrage · 2005-06-27 14:30:36

Oh i made a mistake.

The Levels won't depends on how much education the person has and if they are doing a job that will benifit the society

It was meant to be will depend not won't depends.

On a more basic level, if these "wage scales" are applied to all endeavors the primary incentive for innovation will be removed. People work hard, take risks and improve upon old ways of doing things for essentially one reason, to profit themselves. Lock them into a rigid scale and why will anyone bust their butt?

Cause this idea is Half Capitalism and Half Communism. This won't make people poorer beacuse the harder they work the more credits they will get. More credits will allow them more food,more items and stuff like that. But the it is controlled by the government. In countries like America or UK it's hard for people to get rich beacuse they will be things that will hamper them. So the easiest way is to win a lottery or win a reality tv show.

Fledi · 2005-06-27 18:03:45

There have been different wages for different kinds of labor in real communism, too.
The problem is that strong government of yours will also be run by people and chances are they will be the most corrupt, selfish of all.
Then a doctor will still receive 5 times as much as a janitor, but government officials will be incredibly more powerful compared to that, because they make the rules, they are sitting "by the fire", where the money is distributed from.

Stormrage · 2005-06-27 18:53:56

There have been different wages for different kinds of labor in real communism, too.
The problem is that strong government of yours will also be run by people and chances are they will be the most corrupt, selfish of all.
Then a doctor will still receive 5 times as much as a janitor, but government officials will be incredibly more powerful compared to that, because they make the rules, they are sitting "by the fire", where the money is distributed from.

The corruption of the government can only last for few years then because the people vote for there leaders. There can be an independent watchdog that can take emergency power if the government is suspect of foul play in it's core.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2005-06-25 13:48:48

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#2 2005-06-25 16:07:22

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#3 2005-06-25 16:12:14

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#4 2005-06-25 16:19:36

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#5 2005-06-25 16:28:49

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#6 2005-06-25 16:59:10

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#7 2005-06-25 18:02:20

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#8 2005-06-25 21:28:14

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#9 2005-06-26 04:30:28

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#10 2005-06-26 06:00:04

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#11 2005-06-26 07:52:59

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#12 2005-06-26 11:25:11

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#13 2005-06-26 14:29:23

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#14 2005-06-26 14:45:04

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#15 2005-06-26 16:30:20

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#16 2005-06-26 17:45:50

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#17 2005-06-26 18:32:20

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#18 2005-06-27 08:35:31

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#19 2005-06-27 08:56:24

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#20 2005-06-27 09:13:07

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#21 2005-06-27 09:29:40

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#22 2005-06-27 11:54:02

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#23 2005-06-27 14:30:36

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#24 2005-06-27 18:03:45

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

#25 2005-06-27 18:53:56

Re: Communism - Just like Star Trek

Board footer