Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-21 07:12:42

Something else occurs to me, hopefully they put the scene back for the DVD. Initially there was a scene in Sith where several Senators meet with Padme and discuss forming an alliance against Palpatine in the Senate, all of it hinting at the rebellion to come. Later on at least one of those characters (Mon Mothma) is a prominent figure in the Rebel Alliance.

So in essence we have on the one hand Palpatine, a politician who constantly invokes democracy but subverts it whenever it suits his purposes to make the galaxy what he thinks it should be. On the other we have politicians who constantly invoke democracy but incite an uprising to make the galaxy what they think it should be when Palpatine suckers the Senate into supporting his ascension to Emperor. Both sides invoke democracy but discard it whenever it suits them and the Senate is too stupid and easily manipulated to be voting on anything anyway. :laugh:

Finally, the hope for deposing Palpatine and his authoritarian regime rests with the blood heir of a secretive elitist group of warrior priests. If there is a message to these movies it's simply this, democracy and the masses are merely tools of exceptional individuals, whether for good or evil. It's a very fascist message actually.

Even the fall of the Empire oddly enough. A corrupted government and its ossified traditionalist military are toppled by a group of radicals trying to create a new society based on a romanticized vision of the past. Do I even need to point out Luke's black shirt and jackboots? :laugh:

Palomar · 2005-06-21 08:12:17

If there is a message to these movies it's simply this, democracy and the masses are merely tools of exceptional individuals, whether for good or evil. It's a very fascist message actually.
Even the fall of the Empire oddly enough. A corrupted government and its ossified traditionalist military are toppled by a group of radicals trying to create a new society based on a romanticized vision of the past. Do I even need to point out Luke's black shirt and jackboots? :laugh:

*Well...at the risk of this sounding like an "obvious question"...what is the definition of an "exceptional individual" by fascist standards? Who in history would be a good example?

Sure, I know intelligence, exceptional leadership capabilities, organization, etc., would factor in.

Just wondering.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-21 08:25:49

*Well...at the risk of this sounding like an "obvious question"...what is the definition of an "exceptional individual" by fascist standards? Who in history would be a good example?
Sure, I know intelligence, exceptional leadership capabilities, organization, etc., would factor in.

It's a vague concept, though the characteristics you mention are definately factors. It's really just part of the idea (true, as I see it) that progress in any endeavor doesn't come from a majority or a consensus but from an individual who for whatever reasons and in whatever way rises above the median and sets things in motion. Only then do the "masses" have something to form a consensus on. So it really refers to anyone that stands out from the crowd on their own merits.

While I won't try to comment on "fascist standards" for it, my own are fairly broad. Einstein, Bill Clinton, Hitler, Lenin, Reagan, Burt Rutan, Jesus Christ; all qualify among countless others. It isn't a value judgment so much as a raw observation. It doesn't even have to be someone that reaches national or global prominence, every place has the same social dynamics playing out, it's just a question of scale. In any group you'll always have one or two people that really define the whole. The larger the group, the more pronounced it becomes.

So democracy isn't so much the will of the people but the people deciding between the will of two individuals according to their own desires and how succesful the individuals in question are at molding them. Always reacting, never initiating.

Palomar · 2005-06-21 08:34:02

*Well...at the risk of this sounding like an "obvious question"...what is the definition of an "exceptional individual" by fascist standards? Who in history would be a good example?
Sure, I know intelligence, exceptional leadership capabilities, organization, etc., would factor in.
It's a vague concept, though the characteristics you mention are definately factors. It's really just part of the idea (true, as I see it) that progress in any endeavor doesn't come from a majority or a consensus but from an individual who for whatever reasons and in whatever way rises above the median and sets things in motion. Only then do the "masses" have something to form a consensus on. So it really refers to anyone that stands out from the crowd on their own merits.
While I won't try to comment on "fascist standards" for it, my own are fairly broad. Einstein, Bill Clinton, Hitler, Lenin, Reagan, Burt Rutan, Jesus Christ; all qualify among countless others. It isn't a value judgment so much as a raw observation. It doesn't even have to be someone that reaches national or global prominence, every place has the same social dynamics playing out, it's just a question of scale. In any group you'll always have one or two people that really define the whole. The larger the group, the more pronounced it becomes.
So democracy isn't so much the will of the people but the people deciding between the will of two individuals according to their own desires and how succesful the individuals in question are at molding them. Always reacting, never initiating.

*Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. Was a bit surprised to see Bill Clinton's name in your list, but it's probably because of information/observations about him I lack.

Now you've got me curious and I'll probably research all this a bit more with online resources.

How to say this? Um...I've never considered that mercy nor compassion could have much of a part in fascism. Maybe that's been wrong too? But then I've not been a serious "student" of the matter and probably have gone with a negative stereotype or something...

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-21 08:53:23

How to say this? Um...I've never considered that mercy nor compassion could have much of a part in fascism. Maybe that's been wrong too? But then I've not been a serious "student" of the matter and probably have gone with a negative stereotype or something...

The short answer is that overall fascism isn't a terribly compassionate beast overall, though it's not devoid of it either. There is a very hard distinction drawn though between "us" and "them". While I don't subscribe strictly to this view, within that framework one could be very compassionate toward one's own people, whether defined by culture, blood or philosophy, while simultaneously showing no mercy to "them". An extreme example is Nazi Germany, with lavish orphanages, respectable unemployment measures and government-subsidized vacations for German workers contrasted against the most vile methods of disposing of those not part of the group as defined.

In alot of ways fascism is a collection of extremes bound together. That's really its major flaw, there's nothing much in it that by itself is inherently evil, everything is just taken too far in too many directions.

So I blend it all together and throw in some other stuff into a strange philosphical stew. It's spicy, but not too much.

Don't spill it though, it stains.

Palomar · 2005-06-21 10:36:46

*Thanks for the answers, Cobra.

Another question I've been meaning to ask: How long would it take to build the Death Star?

[I'm wondering how long it was after the ribbon was cut and the bottle of champagne smashed beside it (ha ha) before Luke's lucky shot caused it to blow up]

But for the sake of the question as well...how long to build a spherical starship of that scale?

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-21 11:00:09

But for the sake of the question as well...how long to build a spherical starship of that scale?

This should be an interesting delve into speculation. . .

I suppose it would depend on what methods were being used. We couldn't do it with our present tech, but if one assumes that the materials could be transported to the construction site without difficulty it would be easy enough to calculate based on size, some assumptions about internal structure, number of workers, length and number of shifts and how much volume they can construct in an hour or a day. That's alot of assumptions.

However, if you had a few thousand giant nano-fabbers who knows?

Looking at the second Death Star in Jedi might give some clues (if one chooses to take it that seriously) about the methods. We don't see any work craft about, perhaps there are just suited astronauts floating around with torches and they're too small to see in the shot but that seems like a bass-ackwards way to build it. Could take centuries. Millenia if they're Union.

No cargo craft either, begging the question of where all the materials are coming from. No mines (that we see) on Endor.

Looking at the areas that aren't completed it looks very haphazard. Almost like it was growing rather than being constructed. Either that, or the crew drinks too much.

Finally, we know that it had to have been built either between the destruction of the first Death Star and the start of Jedi, approximately 10 years story-time if I remember correctly, or between Sith and Jedi (making it about 30 years) if both were started at the same time under "two for twice the price" philosphy of government spending.

My guess then is that it was being built with some form of advanced fab machinery, either something using high-density stock that later gets turned to familiar materials, or an almost magical energy-to-matter process, which might explain the giant reactor at the center of the thing.

Those machines were probably not fully automated, given that the CO told Vader he needed more men to keep schedule.

So if using that sort of uber-tech, I suppose something within a 6-10 year range almost makes sense. The Death Star isn't the only monstrosity either, Vader's behemoth Star Destroyer was probably built with some similar voodoo process.

My question is this: Why build ships the size of European countries? What purpose does that serve besides impressing the hell out of people? Is it worth it?

This falls under the heading "Baffle with Bullshit".

clark · 2005-06-21 11:05:33

My question is this: Why build ships the size of European countries? What purpose does that serve besides impressing the hell out of people? Is it worth it?

Even in a galaxy far far away, size matters.

BWhite · 2005-06-21 14:59:41

More Yoda:

Writing dialog George Lucas so terrible at is.

Edited By BWhite on 1119387600

Trebuchet · 2005-06-21 17:35:07

My question is this: Why build ships the size of European countries? What purpose does that serve besides impressing the hell out of people? Is it worth it?

In a nutshell, the purpose of the Death Star is to impress the hell out of people by being oversize and overpowered. Is it worth it? Well, when you have the gross economic output of an entire galaxy to draw on, probably...

As for construction, perhaps they locate a small, iron-rich moon or large asteroid, park it around a planet or moon, and disassemble the thing for use in construction right on the spot.

Vader's monstrously huge Star Destroyer is significantly less insane in scope; the US military looked at a concept called MOBs that was basically a gargantuan aircraft carrier. The design was somewhat longer than a 'normal' Star Destroyer and an appreciable fraction of the length of Vader's ship - a tenth or so - and that's with current technology.

GCNRevenger · 2005-06-21 17:55:48

Why build them so big? Probobly because the massive 900ft wide fusion reactor at the heart of a Star Destroyer scales bigtime.

On the scale of the Death Star, construction vehicles really would be essentially invisible from the shots shown on film.

Palomar · 2005-06-25 04:45:54

Vader's monstrously huge Star Destroyer is significantly less insane in scope

*...and speaking of the Star Destroyer, would he have eventually permanently resided in the Death Star after its final completion or continued living in the SD with only necessary visits aboard the Death Star?

And thanks for the answers to the previous question.

Hmmmmm, looks like I've neglected to mention the time a high school's corridors became Death Star corridors. Should I share that memory? Okay. Glad you want to know:

Late in the summer of 1977, a couple of galpals and I (junior high -- about to enter the 8th grade, all of 12 years old) were discussing Darth Vader. School wasn't in session yet, empty, and IIRC we were there in preparation to begin as helpers to the sports team (digging out water bottles, towel inventory, etc., etc.). Kristi (a shy, petite, demure gal who I'd never seen even one ounce of anger out of; always poised, calm and collected) mentioned what she'd like to do to Darth Vader. Her body suddenly went tense, her face flushed and became angry, her hands balled up into fists while she exclaimed, "I'd KICK him!!!" Her foot kicked out angrily -- got him right in the shins. Then she went into this instant reaction to him reacting; jaw dropping and eyes widening, she began screaming and took off. That was our cue; we began screaming and running like crazy after her (of course we weren't going to just stand there and let him punish us for HER having kicked him). Down and around a bunch of corridors we went, with Darth in hot pursuit (boots pounding against the floor tiles, cape swishing, respirating like mad -- he was p.o.'d and ready to deal us some revenge). Finally we ended up at a dead end...and then ol' Darth mysteriously vanished. We laughed our heads off.

I remembered that again just last evening. The memory of Kristi doing that ... so out of character but hilarious. And who knows, maybe if it were real life she would have kicked Darth Vader in the shins. :laugh: :laugh: My husband was wondering what I was laughing about, so I told him.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-07-06 14:07:29

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050706/en … 2]Original light saber props up for sale

*Upcoming auction. Can buy Luke or Vader's original light saber props. I'm a bit surprised Luke's is projected to sell for more than Vader's.

Other ST props will be on the auction block too.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-12-15 14:29:22

How the Sith Stole Christmas

"Every Ewok on Endor liked Christmas a lot. But the Sith, who lived
just north of Endor, did not. Written and directed by Ted Bracewell,
HOW THE SITH STOLE CHRISTMAS tells the story of Darth Vader's mission
to destroy Christmas for the cuddly inhabitants of Endor..."

*I can't get it to download and play. Oh well. Others here might be able to, and enjoy.

BTW, there's a Star Wars Special Edition group of PEZ (candy) dispensers for sale this holiday season; includes at least 7 characters, one of whom is Darth Sidious. The other PEZ dispensers look true to the original characters, except Darth Sidious with his big toothy (and gentle) smile: Yes, Emperor Palpatine with a Phyllis Diller smile. ROFL!!

--Cindy

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