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Rxke

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From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-04 … Spacedaily

They want this new heavy launcher, primarily for Lunamissions...

SpaceNut

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Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

A nature progression and step. With each sucesfull mission they are gaining in the knowledge of wht it will take to go to the moon. Also this could ignite a new space race and interest if American past pride of apollo is still in our hearts. Not wanting to see them there first since we have not gone back ourselves.

Mark S

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Registered: 2002-04-11

Posts: 343

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I'm surprised China is calling the rocket a "heavy lifter" if it can only put 25 tonnes or so in LEO.  It's an important step forward for China as their first cryogenically-fuelled rocket, but I doubt that the rocket they'r talking about will put humans on the moon.

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"I'm not much of a 'hands-on' evil scientist."--Dr. Evil, "Goldmember"

Yang Liwei Rocket

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Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I've seen some of this discussed on the Bad Astronomer's site
(  Phil Plait )

http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewt … 41&start=0

China's Plans for Moon

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'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

Grypd

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From: Scotland, Europe

Registered: 2004-06-07

Posts: 1,879

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Hmmm very very bad site I wonder if they think elvis is living on Mars in a love shack with Marilyn Monroe

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Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

Rxke

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From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

you're joking? Badastronomy is exactly the opposite, you should hear Hoagland about them, he hates it ever since the guy that runs the site had the courage to publicly tear apart his nonsense...

Euler

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From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/cznlv504.htm]More information

Rxke

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From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

2013

But 25MT to LEO is not to be sniffed at... If they expand their experience with their manned capsules and esp. long-living servicemodules, I could see them jury-rig some kind of programmable or even manned tugboat out of that... Plenty of possibilities spring to mind that way...

And... 98% reliability... Is that considered man-rated internationally?

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Hmmm... Considered to launch orbital lab in... 2010 (!)

Chinese working on time travel, too? 

Euler

Member

From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Hmmm... Considered to launch orbital lab in... 2010 (!)

Chinese working on time travel, too?

I am not sure why it says 2013... all of the modules used in that version of the launcher should be developed and tested by 2010.

And... 98% reliability... Is that considered man-rated internationally?

It would not be considered man-rated by current US standards, but the risk would be considered acceptable for the Chinese.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Thanks.

Sooooo... No international cooperation in the future, I guess...

Yang Liwei Rocket

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Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Thanks.

Sooooo... No international cooperation in the future, I guess...

You know I also saw this topic discussed on the Bad astronomer website, people were asking can there be a ISA or WASA or something like this ?

However there are many the leaders in China who often think in the older communist ways, and the Space sector is strongly connected to military. But the Chinese life is changing and the nation is becoming more open to foreign ideas, some more Capatilist and its economy is moving forward.
China might want international efforts, and help others with space but they want their own power first. They won't want be take orders from Europe, or always behind the USA in areas of aerospace production and far behind the US in launches, the Chinese want to move forward and get everything good and put forward their future designs before they join the international team.

http://a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d … ..._01.jpg

The Chinese have also tried to move to an international effort and work with many Western nations in Space, for example like the ESA's double star which Europe and China worked to launch a fleet of craft into space some time back to study our Earth
.

Double Star will follow in the footsteps of ESA's groundbreaking Cluster mission by studying the effects of the Sun on the Earth's environment.

A key aspect of ESA's participation in the Double Star project is the inclusion of 10 instruments that are identical to those currently flying on the four Cluster spacecraft. A further eight experiments will be provided by Chinese institutes.

http://www.collectspace.com/review/yang … yang02.jpg

NASA has been the best building some fantastic stuff like Viking 1 & 2, the Galileo probe, and great things done with people like John Glenn, N. Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Collins, but NASA has trouble now with safety and there are still questions after Colombia. Russia done great with the MIR spacestation, the luna probes and the Lunokhod rover which sent back over 80,000 images and Russia put up many other craft but now it lacks the cash and the program looks much slower. China is doing ok, it launching satellites, and had a man in orbit and they have a huge workforce in the Chinese industry which could help the space program however China isn't that great in space yet and lacks the experience of the Russians or USA. The Europeans seem good, they have comet probes, large designs for telescopes, they have Mars express and plan on doing joint ventures with NASA , the EU and Euro area is now an economic superpower but the EU scientists don't have the history of launching manned flights to space and the ESA don't have the experience of this.

Right now China is going through the schools for women astronauts next year, there are plans to establish a laboratory in space and the Chinese are looking at the moon. Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin had said that China could be eyeing a future piloted flight of the Moon using their craft and a mission would propel a crew into space and around the Moon without landing. Buzz Aldrin said he welcomed having another nation moving in the same direction in space and said 'We ( the USA )could be useful to them, and they ( Chinese ) could be useful to us' he had talked about the idea to eventually use Shenzhou as a lifeboat for the International Space Station which would relieve the USA from having to develop a new spacestation vehicle, also when Yang went around the US he saw Bill Nelson and Aldrin and Yang said “ .. we could cooperate with each other very well and contribute together (for) the whole of humankind” we might have heard this idea many times but now is it really possible? US astronaut "Buzz" Aldrin said China's program could herald a new age that could either result in greater co-operation in space. If we had Washington and Moscow, the EU and China working on space together wouldn't we do a lot more ?I saw some of this idea when USA and the EU work together or when ESA and China did a project together , there was an article on the European Space Agency site

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMD8CV4QWD_Be … its_0.html

If USA, China, Russia and Europe and other top nations worked together it could be great. I think we could be building on Mars in under 40 months, what do you think about a global space agency, and whether such a thing would be good for our exploration of space - more money because the everyone chips in, but perhaps less direction unless you set a true goal, it could have more resources, could it be along the lines of a head and organisation like the U.N, NATO, or interpol where everyone on Earth contributes or helps out

back China launched its first manned mission

Yang actually brought two UN flags with him on his space flight on October 15, 2003. During the mission, Yang displayed the smaller of the two flags, measuring 4 by 6 inches, during a live broadcast from Earth orbit

There has been much talk on China and space,
here is what others have said

truescot
china has made public its space plans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/387 … 874419.stm

China aims to send a spacecraft to the Moon in three years' time, the head of the country's space agency, Sun Laiyan, has confirmed to the BBC. as well as building their own orbiting space station

so, my question is could thisspark another space race or will other countries realise the potential and work together with the chinese to boost worldwide entrance into space, and which would benefit us more?

the way i see it is that in a competative space race the parties will continuoulsy throw massive amounts of money at it especially as it is of military significance to be the biggest and the best, this could mean massive advancements in space as well as technologies to get us there.

the other way is the world uniting and sharing all data and mission with the rest of the world, this would be great because it would mean that work is not being repeated and we can branch out in several ways at once plus it will make the public much more interested but on the other hand this also means that less money will be thrown at it in total than a space race and there is less incentive to move fast and inovate

what do you guys think?

Ajax 
  Jul  2004   

Go China go.
I think it will motivate us, especially if they start establishing moon bases and we're still goofing around. 

Peiking Starship
Be careful, and think about the future!

China did not just put up a man into space to boast and show-off. This was not to brag like some smaller nations or other places might do by building the tallest comunication mast, or constructing the largest steel arch span and so on.

The Chinese mission was a serious mission. There are many other benefits from Space, better mapping of the Earths surface, increase in broadcasting, better productions of communication satellites, launch of commercial equipment, imporved aerospace designs, military and nuclear missile benefits and of course the more recent space-tourism. Trading space technology could China' s of securing a powerful position. China also desires the power and control over everyone else in the long term buck like the Spanish empire had influence or the USA had superpower status. At this point in time many of the developed countries are being stupid and abandoning their space programs and paying them minimal attention in terms of funding. A number of economists have said that whoever controls the infrastructure for public access to space will control the next century and the destiny of the globe. Back in 1999 people had an idea that China might begin to aim for Space, back then it first successful test of a spacecraft designed for manned fligt. While the same low power propulsion technology used in the maiden flight could also be used to alter the path of the defense missiles, military expert Song Yichang told the state-run ChinaBusinessTimes newspaper and suddenly the cash was flowing to and from the China military.

There are some who are aware of the potential of the Chinese. Recently the Pentagon has released its yearly report to Congress on the current and future military strategy of the People’s Republic of China (PRC), including that nation’s active use of space. There are some who desire to fight for a couple of barrels of oil in the middle East and it looks like China is going to stay clear from this fight. It has been written while others fight for the last drops of oil, China will be trying to increase its might and look to other sources of power. China wants to get up to speed while all the other countries aren' t developing their space programs any further and, once the pendulum of space technology development has gained some momentum, it is likely China' s rate of development by that point will have made significant progress. For space, the Washington report underscores Beijing’s advancement of military space capabilities "across the board", including reconnaissance, navigation, communications, meteorology, small satellite technology, and human spaceflight in the future. There are other future plans too, like as part of on-going work in seek-and-hit space warfare -- termed "counterspace" in military parlance, China is expected to continue to enhance its satellite tracking and identification network is what has been written in the US .

There is also the fact that the global economy and other world affairs are starting to change. China had a wicked communist system, some terrible human rights abuses happened and the country was seen as a bad guy. However now in the last ten years China has changed hugely. To compare the system in China today to one 12 years ago , or to a time when China was ruled by the wicked Mao would be to almost compare Germany or Japan of the 40s to that of the system in the 60s. China is changing fast and it's economy is growing rapidly.

The global economy is facing big change and Bush isn't doing much with the American economy, all those jobs lost. The USA space program has also taken a hit since the unfortunate colombia incident, and the finance doesn't look so good however with some effort they should be able to reshape the program and get NASA back on the straight track. World economics have also become an important factor, China has looked to nations like Korea or Japan and seen the wealth these places can get by selling their designs and computer manufacturing abroad, it is very possible that China desires to have a more open and more powerful economy. Lately other nations in Asia have seen their economic problems increase, and Japan looks like it might back some huge cut backs on its space program and close of it's space plans. An unstaedy economy in Asia, or a dying pension system in Japan is what worries other countries, the Japanese look to stay out of the 10 year recession that dragged their economy down and it looks like space will no longer be an investment. China knows that it has the chance now to prove it could become the strongest and leading force in Asia for the next century.

Nations have also been realligned and we see the effects of a world market, the IMF and Globalisation. A key example of this type of idea of change could be the Euro and the EU, the EU is becoming like the US a formation of states bonded together under a common policy, a single set of rules and a currency. The European area has also begun to expand and has jumped from 15 nations up to 25, the euro has become a good strong alternative to the dollar while Europe still has many plans in aerospace designs, manufacturing and space goals with the ESA. The ESA is small now and has made mistakes but it also has made great projects and could also become much stronger in the future like NASA built itslef up, Europe has also created the idea of a European defence force a type of all area army much like NATO. Is this what the future could bring? A number of key superpowers having influence on the world, three different Superpowers like the EU, China, and the US. Is this what it means for China to be fast on track?

It's hard to know what China plans of doing, but there are many  things it can get from Space

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'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )

John Creighton

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From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 2,401

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Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Quote 
And... 98% reliability... Is that considered man-rated internationally?

It would not be considered man-rated by current US standards, but the risk would be considered acceptable for the Chinese.

It must be close. How reliable is the shuttle? Of course it is one thing to design it to have 98% reliability it is another thing for it to have the level of reliability in practice.

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Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

Rxke

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From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I was asking that because the Chinese had informed if there was interest in them (Chinese) working together in/on the ISS...

NASA (or Government or whatever) decided their tech was too immature. Quite resolute.

So I wondered: would a 98% reliable HL for manned launches still be considered 'immature' or not...

John Creighton

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From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 2,401

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Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

So I wondered: would a 98% reliable HL for manned launches still be considered 'immature' or not...

I think it is borderline.

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Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

Rxke

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From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

So then... As usual... it will all depend on good-or badwill of politics

(No....  politics... Not agaiiiiinnnnnnnn!!!!!)

quick other subject....

Ah: Do they have the know -how to pull this?

IIRC GCNRevenger said they were not ready for HL... It's a big step forward... Technologically speaking: complexity, infrastructure etc...

Euler

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From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Ah: Do they have the know -how to pull this?

Yes.

IIRC GCNRevenger said they were not ready for HL... It's a big step forward... Technologically speaking: complexity, infrastructure etc...

This is not HL in the way GCNRevenger defines it.  When GCNRevenger talks about HL, he is talking about Saturn V or Energia class vehicles.  This would be a medium lift vehicle (though it is as powerful as anything that exists today).

Euler

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From: Corvallis, OR

Registered: 2003-02-06

Posts: 922

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I should also point out that this is not just one launch vehicle, it is actually a whole family of new launch vehicles.  I also like the approach that they have taken; it looks flexible and economical, without a lot of R&D required.

There are 8 versions:

CZ-NGLV-200
CZ-NGLV-320
CZ-NGLV-540
CZ-NGLV-522
CZ-NGLV-504
CZ-NGLV-540(HO)
CZ-NGLV-522(HO)
CZ-NGLV-504(HO)

The 200 version is a 2.25-m module powered by a 137-ton thrust LOX/Kerosene engine.  The engine is based on the Russian RD-170, which is the same engine that the American Atlas V engine is based off of, though it used indigenous components.  It uses an upper stage from a current small Long March rocket.

The 300 version has a 3.35-m core powered by two of the same 137-ton engines.  It uses a new upper stage, the details of which are not very clear(this version has a low priority because it's capacity overlaps with existing launchers).

The 540, 522, and 504 versions all use a 5-m LOX/LH2 core with 4 strap-on boosters.  The core uses 2 70-ton thrust engines that are of indigenous design(based on experience with Chinese upper stage engines) and construction. The core stage has a T/W ratio that is less than 1, so it needs boosters to take off.  The stap-on boosters consist of the core stages of the 2.25-m and 3.35-m launchers.  The 540 version has 4 2.25-m boosters, the 504 version has 4 3.35-m boosters, and the 522 version has 2 of each.  The 504 is designed to launch 25 tons to LEO.

The HO(I think it stands for 'high orbit' or something similar) versions are the same as the regular versions, except that they have an upper stage.  The upper stage is a modification of an existing Long March upper stage, though it is simplified in order to achieve greater reliability.  The HO versions are intended for payloads that will be launched beyond LEO.  The 504(HO) version is designed to send 14 tons on a geosynchronous transfer orbital trajectory.

Mark S

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Posts: 343

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

25 tonnes is still nothing to sneeze at.  It's in the same class as the Titan IV and Delta IV heavy (ditto on the space shuttle, excapt that the shuttle also lifts the gross weight of the massive orbiter.)

The new rocket may allow China to build a moon ship in three or four flights, it could be adapted into a true heavy lifter, or it could expand China's knowledge base before they build an all-new heavy lifter.  It also allows them to launch a true, reusable space plane, should they choose to abandon capsules for their space station.

This is a wise call by Chinese officials.  Should they succeed, the bold move will pay off.

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"I'm not much of a 'hands-on' evil scientist."--Dr. Evil, "Goldmember"

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Posts: 29,433

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

The section on the engines and fuels used is what gets my attention. The strap on and main for the lower stage launch being kerosene / LOX while the uppers boost to orbit is LH2 /Lox. This makes for a very economical rocket.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/cznlv504.htm

Mark S

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Registered: 2002-04-11

Posts: 343

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I don't like hydrogen as a rocket fuel.  It burns more cleanly and with a higher Isp than kerosene, but it's also a lot more expensive, more difficult to store, and it makes your fuel tanks a lot bulkier and heavier.

There are a few applications where hydrogen makes sense.  Small upper stages are a good use.  If SSTO is possible, it would need hydrogen fuel.  But aside from that, kerosene is an easier solution.

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"I'm not much of a 'hands-on' evil scientist."--Dr. Evil, "Goldmember"

GCNRevenger

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Posts: 6,056

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

I don't think you give Hydrogen's light weight enough credit though... the fact that you need so little of it partially accounts for the heavier fuel tanks and since its so light you need a much less sturdy structure compared to heavier Hydrocarbons. Although I will concede that denser fuels with higher thrust are warrented in a launch booster role, a Hydrogen first stage engine has better specific impulse with altitude than heavier fuel engines, such as the RS-68 getting much more efficent as the pressure drops off. There is a good reason that Boeing's Delta, NASA's Shuttle, Europes' Ariane-V, and now China's medium LV all use cryogenic cores... And as I am quite sure you are aware, the cost of rocket fuel is a mere few percent of launch costs, really trivial, especially with Kerosene needing to be of exceedingly high purity and pre-chilled and such.

Sure, kerosense is easier to build tankage around, and perhaps a little easier to build engines around (though soot clogging is an issue Hydrogen doesn't have), but that does NOT mean it is the better solution.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Mark S

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Registered: 2002-04-11

Posts: 343

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

All good points, GCNRevenger.  I'm not one to totally discrard hydrogen, just use it where it can result in cost savings and reusability superior to kerosene.

I really liked the MAKS spaceplane because it promised to use both kerosene and hydrogen.  The engineers had apparently figured out a scheme that would combine the best properties of both fuels: high thrust of kerosene when the spaceplane launched, switching off to higher-Isp, lighter hydrogen when the vehicle gained altitude.  I'm sure this was a thorny problem for the engineers, and I don't know if they completely solved it, or whether the RD-701 engines were even tested.

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"I'm not much of a 'hands-on' evil scientist."--Dr. Evil, "Goldmember"

GCNRevenger

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From: Earth

Registered: 2003-10-14

Posts: 6,056

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

The RD-701? The Russians did figure out how to combine the two engine concepts really by combining the engines: the thing had three turbopumps if memory serves, and was quite heavy for an engine its size. On paper the idea isn't such a bad one, but in practice I have some misgivings... extra plumbing, additional tank bulkheads, extra turbopump, and the engine being less efficent with either fuel then a dedicated one.

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[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

Yang Liwei Rocket

Member

Registered: 2004-03-03

Posts: 993

Re: China eyeing new HL - Agency Expecting approval this year

Shake-up leads to scientific progress ?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do … 448560.htm
seeds satellite in 2006
http://english.people.com.cn/200506/20/ … 91297.html

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'first steps are not for cheap, think about it...
did China build a great Wall in a day ?' ( Y L R newmars forum member )