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#101 2005-06-08 09:05:21

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Remember the scene in the 1st ST film, where one of the generals (or whatever) seated at the black table sneeringly mocked Vader's devotion to the mystical Dark Side/Force "silly nonsense"?

Don't frighten us with your sorceror's ways Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes nor given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden b-- <choking ensues>

Or very close to that. My nerdliness is revealed, that's from memory.  big_smile

As someone mentioned earlier, It doesn't seem like the average citizen or Imperial officer knows Palpatine is a Sith, or Vader for that matter. Vader is just some ex-Jedi that got his ass kicked. The whole Sith thing is probably played down, too much old Jedi propaganda to overcome and revealing it serves no purpose.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#102 2005-06-08 09:32:42

BWhite
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

My memory from the first movie is that Obi-Wan (Alec Guinness) is fighting Darth Vader, sees Luke and smiles at him and holds up his sword to allow Vader to kill him.

Then, Darth Vader is kicking at Obi-Wan's robes but there is no body there, just cloth.

That has yet to be explained.

= = =

Obi-wan fighting Vader is irrelevant. Its the battle for Luke's soul that matters as only Luke can defeat the Emperor.



Edited By BWhite on 1118244855


Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

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#103 2005-06-08 09:38:05

clark
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Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,374

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

If I recall, it was Vader who defeated the Emperor. Luke just cried.

If I also recall correctly, Vader was the only one who could kill the Emperor as it took (or was a phrophecy) a Sith/dark jedi to kill him.

The way it worked, again, if I recall, was that killing a Sith would lead to a new Sith, and killing the Emperor would lead to a new Emperor. The only way to end the cycle was to have Vader kill the emperor, and then die.

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#104 2005-06-08 09:43:58

Palomar
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From: USA
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Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

*Okay, thanks guys.

But it still strikes me as odd (unless I'm overlooking something...could be; I haven't seen the previous films in a couple of years at least).  In all 3 prequels, the Sith seem a bit numerous at least.  Sure, there are more 'droids than anything else, but we have Darth Maul and what seems to be indications of a somewhat plentiful Order.

Where did the Sith go?  :hm:  I would expect more of their presence throughout.  Instead it seems we have two opposing and now (in Luke's beginnings) obscure, old, thinly-populated Orders (understandable, on the Jedi side of things)...

Unless Vader and the Emperor "off'd" the other Sith to maintain absolute control, and why not since they have all those robots and stormtroopers at their disposal.

(Why do I wonder about these things??  LOL). 

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#105 2005-06-08 09:58:00

BWhite
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

The way it worked, again, if I recall, was that killing a Sith would lead to a new Sith, and killing the Emperor would lead to a new Emperor. The only way to end the cycle was to have Vader kill the emperor, and then die.

I think you are correct, except Luke had to decline the job-offer first.

= = =

Bottom line on the whole thing, snippets of an epic story line wrapped in lame screenwriting and bad acting. I've said this before, after actually watching Star Wars III, this critic made perfect sense:

It was a great movie, exept for all the acting.


Next up, Tom Cruise and a War of the Worlds re-make.


Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

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#106 2005-06-08 16:31:23

Grypd
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From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

My memory from the first movie is that Obi-Wan (Alec Guinness) is fighting Darth Vader, sees Luke and smiles at him and holds up his sword to allow Vader to kill him.

Then, Darth Vader is kicking at Obi-Wan's robes but there is no body there, just cloth.

That has yet to be explained.

= = =

Obi-wan fighting Vader is irrelevant. Its the battle for Luke's soul that matters as only Luke can defeat the Emperor.

It was explained in episode 3 and seen again in episode 6. When Yoda dies he too faded into nothingness. For us rather sad people it was explained in the revenge of the Sith as a power connected to the force that allows a person near death or dieing to transform themselves into the force. Yoda told Obi Wan that in his long years to come on Tatooine that he could learn this skill.

Obi Wan even warned Darth that to strike him down he would become more powerful than Vader could even imagine. In this case a pure entity of the force.

Right enough nerdiness.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#107 2005-06-08 16:36:54

Fledi
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From: in my own little world (no,
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Then, Darth Vader is kicking at Obi-Wan's robes but there is no body there, just cloth.

That has yet to be explained.

That has probably something to do with Qui Gonn's discovery about a way to communicate from the afterworld, as told at the end of the movie. This feature was used many times during the old episodes. It still does not explain why Qui Gonn's and Vader's corpses stay materialized, though.
In some of the books it was said Jedis would have the power to attach a part of their mental selves, their souls so to speak, to other people or even a computer in one case. That allowed Luke to see/hear Obi-Van after his demise.
Whatever, it is easy to find some obscure explanation that fits into the storyline.

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#108 2005-06-09 15:36:02

Fledi
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

(ecrasez_l_infame @ June 07 2005, 10:27)
2.  When Padme flew off to the volcano planet to meet and confront Anakin, she did so with C3PO only.  Yet when she arrives and the confrontation begins (after that final tender embrace), Obi-Wan is seen descending from the ship.  He must have snuck aboard...but Padme doesn't seem surprised to find him suddenly there.  Or did I miss something and he flew in shortly after her and was coming out of his own private ship?  No wonder Anakin thought she'd brought Obi-Wan along and resented it.  A bit confusing anyway.

Just watched the movie for the second time. Obi-Wan left Padme at the balcony in a one-seat fighter, that's correct. But later on in the scene where she is taking off with the ship to the volcano planet (its name is "Mustafa® System" if I got that correctly), the back door is closed by Obi-Wan, who is sitting inside.
Now that leaves us with one important unanswered question less. smile

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#109 2005-06-09 15:46:15

Palomar
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From: USA
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Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

(ecrasez_l_infame @ June 07 2005, 10:27)
2.  When Padme flew off to the volcano planet to meet and confront Anakin, she did so with C3PO only.  Yet when she arrives and the confrontation begins (after that final tender embrace), Obi-Wan is seen descending from the ship.  He must have snuck aboard...but Padme doesn't seem surprised to find him suddenly there.  Or did I miss something and he flew in shortly after her and was coming out of his own private ship?  No wonder Anakin thought she'd brought Obi-Wan along and resented it.  A bit confusing anyway.

Just watched the movie for the second time. Obi-Wan left Padme at the balcony in a one-seat fighter, that's correct. But later on in the scene where she is taking off with the ship to the volcano planet (its name is "Mustafa® System" if I got that correctly), the back door is closed by Obi-Wan, who is sitting inside.
Now that leaves us with one important unanswered question less. smile

*Thank you, Fledi.  Apparently I was absorbed in watching the backdrop (city lights, buildings...). 

Yet another question has come to mind:  Mace insisted Palpatine be taken to trial.  Yet Obi-Wan didn't -- if I remember correctly -- even mention the possibility of the Jedis taking Anakin/Vader to trial; he simply went after Anakin/Vader.

??? 

Was that wrong of Obi-Wan? 

Palpatine was a traitor to the Jedis ... a Jedi determines (before being killed) that he should go to trial.

Anakin was a traitor to the Jedis and Obi-Wan merely goes after him.

Seems like a contradiction in Jedi justice.  :hm:

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#110 2005-06-09 16:24:56

Fledi
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Not really, Mace Windu tried to slay Palpatine, that's when Anakin stepped in and cut off his arm, the deciding moment when he changed to the dark side. It was Anakin who insisted on Palpatine being brought to a trial instead of killing him right there.
By the time Obi-Wan went after Anakin the emperor's coup had already been successful, so he had little chance to bring Anakin to a court, he would have the emperor coming after them if he tried a remote place like Naboo. What he wanted to do was to try to save Anakin from the dark side, he asked Yoda to let him go after the emperor, he would kill him, but not Anakin.

But it's true, the Jedi order wasn't showed like a spottless organization at all, Anakin and Mace were rather shadowy characters regarding their handling of beaten sith like Count Dokuu or Palpatine. And it was still weird to see Obi-Wan just leaving Anakin behind after his defeat.


By the way, it still was a great movie at second watch, just darker than any other SW episode, except that one mistake at the point where Anakin saves Palpatine and is agreeing to wipe out the Younglings at the Jedi Temple just 2 minutes later. George Lucas put lot's of effort into explaining how Anakin became more and more seduced by the dark side, but that deciding point was rushed, I'd say.

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#111 2005-06-10 04:46:49

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Not really, Mace Windu tried to slay Palpatine, that's when Anakin stepped in and cut off his arm, the deciding moment when he changed to the dark side. It was Anakin who insisted on Palpatine being brought to a trial instead of killing him right there.

*Hi Fledi.  You're right.  Apparently the two people seated behind us in the theater, who whispered throughout the entire movie, were more of a distraction than I'd realized.  :hm:  And somehow I always became curiously "distracted" by Hayden Christensen...   :;):

By the time Obi-Wan went after Anakin the emperor's coup had already been successful, so he had little chance to bring Anakin to a court, he would have the emperor coming after them if he tried a remote place like Naboo. What he wanted to do was to try to save Anakin from the dark side, he asked Yoda to let him go after the emperor, he would kill him, but not Anakin.

But it's true, the Jedi order wasn't showed like a spottless organization at all, Anakin and Mace were rather shadowy characters regarding their handling of beaten sith like Count Dokuu or Palpatine. And it was still weird to see Obi-Wan just leaving Anakin behind after his defeat.

I agree.  Especially when Anakin/Vader's leggings caught fire.  I expected Obi-Wan  (who may have been initially surprised at the severe nature of injuries already sustained, i.e. the double amputation) to help him at that point, pull him to safety, etc.  If Obi-Wan had shown some compassion, perhaps at that point Anakin could have been persuaded to return to the Jedis.  Then again, Anakin may have killed him after being saved and awaited the arrival of Palpatine.  I could barely watch those scenes; though he's a calloused killer by that point and extremely dangerous, I would have helped him. 

By the way, it still was a great movie at second watch, just darker than any other SW episode, except that one mistake at the point where Anakin saves Palpatine and is agreeing to wipe out the Younglings at the Jedi Temple just 2 minutes later. George Lucas put lot's of effort into explaining how Anakin became more and more seduced by the dark side, but that deciding point was rushed, I'd say.

Yes, I agree.  I enjoyed the film and we plan to see it again, but too much time was spent, IMO, on "show-off" special effects and the storyline suffered a bit because of that.

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#112 2005-06-10 10:53:31

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

*I have another question about the movie. 

I don't know what the characters were called, but they had dark olive-green skin and big black eyes.  They seemed to be in cohoots with Palpatine & Co.  Shortly after joining the Sith, Anakin/Vader "visits" them.  He slays them all in a small room which seems to be some sort of headquarters; the leader of this group of aliens seems shocked, especially in the sense of "why are you killing US?"

Who were those aliens and why did Anakin/Vader destroy them?

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#113 2005-06-10 11:06:44

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Who were those aliens and why did Anakin/Vader destroy them?

Those were the honchos of the Trade Federation, they were pawns in Palpatine's plot starting back in "Phantom Menace", of course they didn't know who he was. Once he'd become Emperor he didn't need them anymore and Vader was just cleaning up the loose ends. Can't have all the old double-crossed goons running around.

How something called the "Trade Federation" gets a seat in the Senate eludes me, but since when does Star Wars make perfect sense?


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#114 2005-06-10 11:20:13

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Who were those aliens and why did Anakin/Vader destroy them?

Those were the honchos of the Trade Federation, they were pawns in Palpatine's plot starting back in "Phantom Menace", of course they didn't know who he was. Once he'd become Emperor he didn't need them anymore and Vader was just cleaning up the loose ends. Can't have all the old double-crossed goons running around.

How something called the "Trade Federation" gets a seat in the Senate eludes me, but since when does Star Wars make perfect sense?

*Okay, thank you Cobra.

My memory is really rusty on Star Wars apparently, especially concerning the previous two prequels.  And I didn't remember that Yoda died.  :-\

I also didn't recall that Padme and Anakin were actually wed on Naboo in the previous film, and was surprised to hear them discussing being secretly married in "Sith."  Then I read a brief article and recalled their tiny, private ceremony was shown in the previous film (final scene, IIRC).

::shakes head::

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#115 2005-06-11 11:16:35

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

*I'm still a bit puzzled why some U.S. Republicans would get worked up about this film (being compared to Sith/Empire) when the Jedi (Democrats) didn't come out looking too rosy either.  In fact, this film makes the Jedi look even worse, in a way...(sort of like the Demos). 

The only two people in this film I truly felt for were Padme and Anakin; both caught up in forces, circumstances, situations far beyond their control; both pawns; tragic consequences.

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#116 2005-06-11 12:13:07

Fledi
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From: in my own little world (no,
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Yoda wasn't that bad, either. He disagreed with the ways some Jedi's behaved in the end and generally just tried to save what he could.
Also thought about Palpatine's way of pulling Anakin over to his side, he put quite an effort into it. Really sucked with Luke in Episode 6 compared to that, maybe it wasn't all that important for him to convert him, too.

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#117 2005-06-14 05:50:53

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Yoda wasn't that bad, either. He disagreed with the ways some Jedi's behaved in the end and generally just tried to save what he could.

*Yes, of course Yoda.  He's my favorite, and I didn't feel let down by him (unlike the other Jedi).

I enjoyed the ST movies when they included human stormtroopers much more than all those droids.  R2D2 and C3PO aren't as "stand-out" anymore, thanks to all the other myriad buckets of bolts darting about.  :-\

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#118 2005-06-14 06:06:08

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
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Posts: 3,039

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Quote (Fledi @ June 11 2005, 14:13)
Yoda wasn't that bad, either. He disagreed with the ways some Jedi's behaved in the end and generally just tried to save what he could.

*Yes, of course Yoda.  He's my favorite, and I didn't feel let down by him (unlike the other Jedi).

Yoda?! Let go of your attachements Yoda? Can't sense a Sith Lord when sitting across a desk from him Yoda? Just accept this army that came out of nowhere as all well and good Yoda?

No, Yoda's up to his ears in blame for this one. He just seemed to bumble along with whatever was happening, offering his fortune-cookie wisdom that ranged from cliche to just wrong but not really doing much.

I'm intentionally over-acting this of course, but <Shatner> I feel compelled, compelled to. . . point out Yoda's flaws. He's. . . such a. . . muppet. </Shatner>  :laugh:

Perhaps if Yoda would have been a bit more impulsive and less concerned with being "calm" and "at peace" Palpatine's rise would have been averted?

Mmm, much to learn he still has.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#119 2005-06-14 06:22:36

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Quote (Fledi @ June 11 2005, 14:13)
Yoda wasn't that bad, either. He disagreed with the ways some Jedi's behaved in the end and generally just tried to save what he could.

*Yes, of course Yoda.  He's my favorite, and I didn't feel let down by him (unlike the other Jedi).

Yoda?! Let go of your attachements Yoda? Can't sense a Sith Lord when sitting across a desk from him Yoda? Just accept this army that came out of nowhere as all well and good Yoda?

No, Yoda's up to his ears in blame for this one. He just seemed to bumble along with whatever was happening, offering his fortune-cookie wisdom that ranged from cliche to just wrong but not really doing much.

I'm intentionally over-acting this of course, but <Shatner> I feel compelled, compelled to. . . point out Yoda's flaws. He's. . . such a. . . muppet. </Shatner>  :laugh:

Perhaps if Yoda would have been a bit more impulsive and less concerned with being "calm" and "at peace" Palpatine's rise would have been averted?

Mmm, much to learn he still has.

*Awww.  sad 

Blinded by affection, perhaps I am. 

There's just something oh-so-endearing about that little green fellow.  It all started when he snuck that food from Luke, and began munching on it even before Luke could protest (a second later:  "Hey!").  :laugh:  Yep, he had my heart from that moment on.

But yes, I see your point about the impulsive versus passive thing. 

--Cindy

P.S.:  Yoda is cuter than William Shatner.


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#120 2005-06-14 08:48:33

Fledi
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From: in my own little world (no,
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Yoda?! Let go of your attachements Yoda? Can't sense a Sith Lord when sitting across a desk from him Yoda? Just accept this army that came out of nowhere as all well and good Yoda?

Maybe it was so long ago he met a sith before he has forgotten how they feel...
And the army, what other options did he have? I mean, the Republic is nearly owerwhelmed by the Trade Federation, then there come these cloners and say: "Here we have an army that is better than these stupid droids the Federation has, but we don't need it, here you can have it, just pay the cash."
Weird guys, I wonder what happened to them after Palpatine became emperor.

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#121 2005-06-14 14:36:45

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Weird guys, I wonder what happened to them after Palpatine became emperor.

*I'm still wondering what happened to Darth Maul.  They should have kept him...to heck with General Grievous.  I did check the wikipedia.com entry on Darth Maul; he seems to have simply vanished from the storyline.  What a fierce creature he was. 

Guess I'd better Google/Wikipedia for General Grievous because I'm still not sure where he fits into the story.

Darth Maul was too "good" to give up, IMO.  That's what I'd expect a Sith to look like -- or similar to.  IMO there is no other humanoid Star Wars character who exceeds Maul's intensity and formidableness except Darth Vader.  Not even the Emperor.

--Cindy

::EDIT::  Never mind.  Just remembered what happened to him.  Bring him back!  tongue


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#122 2005-06-14 14:44:15

Fledi
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From: in my own little world (no,
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Posts: 325

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

SW Episode 1: Obi-Wan sees from behind a force field how Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon. Then he battles it out with him and finally succeeds in slaying Maul. He falls dead into a deep hole.

I wish I wouldn't remember better than you, that way you can enjoy the movie more often big_smile

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#123 2005-06-14 14:44:51

BWhite
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

They did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Maul]Then Darth Vader kills him.


Give someone a sufficient [b][i]why[/i][/b] and they can endure just about any [b][i]how[/i][/b]

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#124 2005-06-14 14:53:09

Palomar
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From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

SW Episode 1: Obi-Wan sees from behind a force field how Darth Maul kills Qui-Gon. Then he battles it out with him and finally succeeds in slaying Maul. He falls dead into a deep hole.

I wish I wouldn't remember better than you, that way you can enjoy the movie more often big_smile

*Thanks Fledi.  The only thing I remember about that scene is of course Darth Maul's appearance, and the truly excellent martial arts/acrobatics skills of Ray Park (yes, I'm reading at Wikipedia right now).  I could have watched Mr. Park for hours.

But I haven't seen that film since its release into theaters, in 1999 of course (and just once).  I really should watch Episodes 1 & 2 again.  :-\

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#125 2005-06-15 12:11:02

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Empire vs Rebel Alliance

*I'm still wondering what happened to Darth Maul.  They should have kept him...to heck with General Grievous.

My preference would have been to have Dooku throughout the series, dump both Grievous (cheesy character) and Maul (underdeveloped character). But then both Maul's makeup and Grievous' faceplate are copyrighted icons, unlike Christopher Lee's face. Important for marketing.

But then I never liked that double-bladed lightsaber of Maul's, though adapting it to staff techniques was interesting.

Just thinking about the training accidents that must happen with such a thing, I wouldn't touch it.  ???

I might have liked the character more if he had more than one line. Though Grievous could have done with less.  big_smile


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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