Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-27 05:20:31

I wonder where Cobra commander was and does he have an alibi...hmmm

No where near the incidents in question, four Stormtroopers can back me up.

They can't actually shoot anything, but they try. ???

Luke is probably 25 years old at this point. Why/how could Yoda age so rapidly and noticeably in a mere 25 years, considering the longevity of his species?

Well, he did go from living in the capitol, a respected Jedi Master with the finest in medical care and other goodies, to living in a slimy mudhole swamp with nothing. I suppose it takes its toll.

Of course we all know the real reason, the OT Yoda can't very well jump around with Frank Oz's hand lodged up his posterior. ???

Palomar · 2005-05-27 05:32:59

Luke is probably 25 years old at this point. Why/how could Yoda age so rapidly and noticeably in a mere 25 years, considering the longevity of his species?
Well, he did go from living in the capitol, a respected Jedi Master with the finest in medical care and other goodies, to living in a slimy mudhole swamp with nothing. I suppose it takes its toll.
Of course we all know the real reason, the OT Yoda can't very well jump around with Frank Oz's hand lodged up his posterior. ???

*Yeah, there's a big difference between computer animation and puppetry. :-\
(:edit later: Sorry...)

Yoda was doing a Jedi mind-trick on Luke...sort of. Luke was predestined to crash into that swamp en route to (wherever...can't recall); Yoda set up camp there, took on the appearance of being very old (when in fact he wasn't) -- to ensure Luke WOULD do all the footwork, etc.

?

My guess, anyway.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-05-27 20:33:42

If this was noted above, my apologies.

Elsewhere in blog-o-land people are starting to notice that the Jedi use blue swords and the Sith use red swords. I mean come on, was George Lucas that transparent?

People like Orson Scott Card.

I did read a marvelous snarky comment though, to the effect that Orson Scott Card was a good writer until he went all "Bobby Fischer on us"

Don't know whether to agree or disagree but "going Bobby Fischer" needs to be added to our vernacular.

IMHO, as always.

= = =

Maybe going http://www.hatrack.com/research/questio … html]Bobby Fischer is kind:

With nut cases like that actually in power, why in the world would you want to attack the utterly powerless religious right?

= = =

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/5 … 4/21#21]Ha! Ha! Ha!

Edited By BWhite on 1117248800

srmeaney · 2005-05-27 20:54:38

Actually the walking stick is a put on. As my brother tells me its just an excuse to get the young girls... (The Yoda in the Clone Wars Animated series is frequently escorted by Jedi of the female pursuasion). And based on the amount of exercise he does in revenge of the Sith, I am inclined to agree...That little green smurf can crawl like a rat up a drain pipe.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-27 21:26:33

Elsewhere in blog-o-land people are starting to notice that the Jedi use blue swords and the Sith use red swords. I mean come on, was George Lucas that transparent?

It's always been that way since ANH. . . Oh, I see where you're going with this.

I've never seen anyone switch from red to blue though. And where do the green sabers fit in? Are they eco-friendly?

Of course if one is intent on reading political messages into the movie one could just as easily say that Anakin only wanted to have a traditional family but government regulation by arrogant dogmatic blowhards made it impossible. That, and back in Episode II Anakin sounded like a whiny liberal anyway. It's not fair! Obi Wan won't give me a chance! He keeps calling me a whiny liberal! :laugh:

And he gets the girl with that act? Only in a fantasy film.

srmeaney · 2005-05-27 21:55:56

Of course if one is intent on reading political messages into the movie one could just as easily say that Anakin only wanted to have a traditional family but government regulation by arrogant dogmatic blowhards made it impossible. That, and back in Episode II Anakin sounded like a whiny liberal anyway. It's not fair! Obi Wan won't give me a chance! He keeps calling me a whiny liberal!

Actually it was the religious order refered to as jedi who are opposed to "emotional involvements", Senator Amidalla expresses her fear at being discovered to be 'married with children' as this would be used against her in the political arena.

Palomar · 2005-05-28 13:49:25

And he gets the girl...?

*Sure, why not? Tall, handsome...

The real travesty of the film (hopefully we'll see it a week from this coming Monday) is

http://gwiezdne-wojny.pl/grafika/2004/m … ]Obscuring this handsome face

http://www.film.gen.tr/resim/haberler/anakin.jpg]with a helmet.

A friend of my husband's saw the film. Apparently those theater-goers had the misfortune of over 2 minutes of the movie suddenly being without sound. Hopefully that won't happen to us.

--Cindy

dickbill · 2005-05-28 15:14:24

I just saw the movie today. Great, congratulations to Lucas.
Maybe the best of the serie ?
He is right to stop here, anything more would be surperfluous, when everything has been done and said.
And as the movie said : there are some good people on both side of the fight but Evil is everywhere.

Palomar · 2005-06-02 07:53:46

http://www.storewars.org/flash/index.html]Grocery Store Wars

*It's the return of Darth Tater. Found this on a Yahoo! group. Cute... :laugh:

--Cindy

P.S.: "It's the Death Melon!" // "Search your peelings, Cuke. You know it to be true." // "Use The Farm, Cuke! Stretch out with your peelings!"

And Chewbroccoli...that's rich.

Palomar · 2005-06-06 15:02:53

Not to spoil anything for those who haven't seen it, but did anyone else notice the "greyness" this time around? The bad guys weren't entirely evil and the good guys weren't so good. Not so black and white.

*We just came home from the theater.

Yes, noticed that.

Bill's quote: What can you say about a civilization where people zip from one solar system to the next as if they were changing their socks but where a woman fails to register for an ultrasound, and thus to realize that she is carrying twins until she is about to give birth?

...or even more curiously, IMO, the fact that she delivered twins who appeared "term" (fully grown, 9 months' intrauterine growth) yet her pre-birth abdomen appeared swollen only to the point of perhaps 5 months' gestation. :-\

Just a few additional comments (potential spoilers):

So Yoda and Chewbacca knew each other back then. Cool.

If the Emperor is so doggone powerful, why can't he make his teeth pearly white and straight? :hm:

The persons Anakin kills at the Jedi Temple... I didn't think he'd go that far.

Immediately after Anakin turned to the Dark Side and claimed Palpatine as his new master, my husband whispered to me that Palpatine reminded him of George Bush. Teehee.

Okay, so that's why Darth Vader wears the suit and helmet. Gruesome. (:edit: Yes, I saw his rather unpleasant features in "Return of the Jedi", the final scene, but wasn't sure exactly what had happened to him)

So very sad, how it turned out for Padme. And how Anakin turned on her, attacking her with his power when she and Obi-Wan arrived on that volcanic planet (sorry, don't know its name). No wonder she died of a broken heart.

Terrific movie, except it's a bit too "busy" at the beginning. Geez, you'd need Jedi- or Sith-like powers to keep track of all the action, where the laser bullets are flying, what's beneath/above/behind/front of/to side of you every other second, on and on. :-\ Most people would be killed by non-intent.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-06-06 15:17:03

"Good relations with Wookies, have I"

That line still cracks me up. So many gutters for my mind to run through, so little time.

Trebuchet · 2005-06-06 18:54:18

The persons Anakin kills at the Jedi Temple... I didn't think he'd go that far.

I have the feeling that Lucas added that in at the last minute, realizing that the series did not really sell the Sith as particularly "evil" in a oh-shit-NAZIS! sort of way, so he inserted that scene. It's the only explanation I can think of for a scene that basically goes (spoiler):

Palpatine: I'm a helpless Sith Lord being killed by this Jedi. Help me.

Mace: He's dangerous.

Anakin: You can't just kill him. We'll put him on trial. Then kill him.

Mace: No, gotta kill him.

Palpatine: I'm harmless. Save me.

(Anakin saves him, and Palpatine fries Mace. His head melts for no particular reason, and briefly looks like Slug from 'The Goonies', albeit an evil Slug)

Palpatine: Forget about that trial thing. Become my apprentice and betray the Jedi.

Anakin: OK, do I get anything?

Palpatine: Yes, a spiffy new name... Vader. Oh yes, I need you to senselessly massacre some kids.

Anakin/Vader: OK, no problem.

(/spoiler)

It's just too much of a swing for me to accept, you know? ^_^

As for the Sith/George Bush thing, that's intentional and is a result of George Lucas having some sort of hippie relapse. The emperor originally was 'inspired' by Richard Nixon, and Lucas has ham-handedly transfered the focus of his shallow political paranoia to Bush.

Palomar · 2005-06-06 19:43:19

-*- Potential spoiler or two; read at your own risk -*-

"Good relations with Wookies, have I"
That line still cracks me up.

*Yes, Bill, I thought about you when Yoda spoke that line.

I love Yoda. He's my favorite Star Wars character, always has been. There's something oh-so-endearing about him. Were I to go to the Dark Side, it'd break my heart seeing those big brown eyes go sad. :-\

Trebuchet: It's just too much of a swing for me to accept, you know? ^_^

Yep. Especially as he's about to become a father himself. It was interesting, IMO, that the kid they had step out and say something to him resembled what Luke grew up to look like. Intentional or mere casting coincidence-of-sorts, or my eyes?

Trebuchet: As for the Sith/George Bush thing, that's intentional and is a result of George Lucas having some sort of hippie relapse. The emperor originally was 'inspired' by Richard Nixon, and Lucas has ham-handedly transfered the focus of his shallow political paranoia to Bush.

Hippie relapse -- :laugh: Originally Nixon, huh? I think someone mentioned that before (not sure though). And I'm still not sure about the "heroes on both sides" bit. Heroes who would call for the execution of those people in the Jedi Temple? Persons who would carry out such a fiendish action? :hm:

BTW, Mad Magazine spoofed the opening crawl. Here's a few highlights from that:

"...The Republic is crumbling..." (Just like this whole tired franchise)

"...Count Dooku..." (Hmm...'Dooku for Cocoa Puffs.' How did George's licensing vipers miss making a deal on that product tie-in?)

"...Evil is everywhere..." (Ugh, this is starting to read like Bush's State of the Union address. What next, will they try to link Vader to 9/11?)

"...the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous..." (What, was 'Hitler von Killington' too subtle? How about 'Sergeant Satanstein'?)

"...As the Separatist Droid Army..." (Probably comprised of droid reservists who had no idea what they were getting into when they signed up)

Lol! ::shakes head::

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-06-07 08:27:39

*I do have two questions:

1. Why don't the Jedi Masters have one true leader? I thought Yoda was their leader...like Head Master or something. Sure, I understand it couldn't be absolutist or a permanent position; subject to 1-Jedi, 1-vote basis and the HM has a term limit, etc. Is this how they were weakened, i.e. too much egalitarianism in the ranks?

2. When Padme flew off to the volcano planet to meet and confront Anakin, she did so with C3PO only. Yet when she arrives and the confrontation begins (after that final tender embrace), Obi-Wan is seen descending from the ship. He must have snuck aboard...but Padme doesn't seem surprised to find him suddenly there. Or did I miss something and he flew in shortly after her and was coming out of his own private ship? No wonder Anakin thought she'd brought Obi-Wan along and resented it. A bit confusing anyway.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-07 09:02:06

Is this how they were weakened, i.e. too much egalitarianism in the ranks?

"Wise" good guys always seem to have councils while bad guys just give orders and do stuff. I must say I didn't mind seeing the "Jedi Central Committee" get theirs.

The Sith out taking over the Republic while the Jedi sit around "What do you think we should do? Well I don't know, what do you think?" Oh yeah, way to defend freedom there guys. Somebody make a decision!

2. When Padme flew off to the volcano planet to meet and confront Anakin, she did so with C3PO only. Yet when she arrives and the confrontation begins (after that final tender embrace), Obi-Wan is seen descending from the ship. He must have snuck aboard...

Yep, he snuck on and hid in a cupboard or something. There's a quick shot of it right before the ship takes off.

As for the demise of the young Jedi, most of the people in the theater where I was cheered. They'd been waiting a long time. Sick puppies, but when that first kid emerged from hiding it just had to happen. It's really about the only thing that brands the Sith as really "evil" in the whole movie when you get down to it.

Backing up a little.

Terrific movie, except it's a bit too "busy" at the beginning.

I thought the beginning was a little boring, really. Sure it looked cool and all, but it just didn't seem necessary. Action with no clear purpose and extensive droid gags just didn't seem to work IMOSHO.

BWhite · 2005-06-07 09:07:25

I thought the beginning was a little boring, really. Sure it looked cool and all, but it just didn't seem necessary. Action with no clear purpose and extensive droid gags just didn't seem to work IMOSHO.

Absolutely agree. When the opening scene was over I recall thinking "Good, now the movie can start"

Remember this: Everyone needs an editor, especially George Lucas.

Palomar · 2005-06-07 09:25:09

Is this how they were weakened, i.e. too much egalitarianism in the ranks?
"Wise" good guys always seem to have councils while bad guys just give orders and do stuff. I must say I didn't mind seeing the "Jedi Central Committee" get theirs.
The Sith out taking over the Republic while the Jedi sit around "What do you think we should do? Well I don't know, what do you think?" Oh yeah, way to defend freedom there guys. Somebody make a decision!
2. When Padme flew off to the volcano planet to meet and confront Anakin, she did so with C3PO only. Yet when she arrives and the confrontation begins (after that final tender embrace), Obi-Wan is seen descending from the ship. He must have snuck aboard...
Yep, he snuck on and hid in a cupboard or something. There's a quick shot of it right before the ship takes off.

*The Jedi seemed too "scattered" and non-focused. I can understand Anakin's disillusionment with them, to a point. I got the feeling Lucas didn't want to deal with the political issues indepth...but then the original series' politics was, as others have pointed out, so black/white anyway. It gets murky as Lucas blurs the distinctions a bit because of his seeming reluctance.

Thanks, Cobra. Guess I completely missed ol' Obi-Wan sneaking aboard. I was probably looking at the backdrop (city buildings/lights, etc.).

The scene of he and Anakin dueling it out on those makeshift "rafts" (from the rubble of the towers or whatever) on the lava was absurd. Their clothing would have ignited being only a few feet above that hellishly hot lava or they would have passed out from the heat. :-\

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-07 09:31:06

The scene of he and Anakin dueling it out on those makeshift "rafts" (from the rubble of the towers or whatever) on the lava was absurd.

No more absurd than two guys taking starships to another planet to have a swordfight.

BWhite · 2005-06-07 09:36:51

The scene of he and Anakin dueling it out on those makeshift "rafts" (from the rubble of the towers or whatever) on the lava was absurd.
No more absurd than two guys taking starships to another planet to have a swordfight.

Cobra 1
Lucas 0

He still has more money than you, however.

BWhite · 2005-06-07 09:42:22

I love Yoda. He's my favorite Star Wars character, always has been. There's something oh-so-endearing about him. Were I to go to the Dark Side, it'd break my heart seeing those big brown eyes go sad. :-\

http://www.withlouis.com/film/yoda/]Yoda, the song-meister

Palomar · 2005-06-07 09:48:08

Assuming the viewpoint of an average citizen, you wouldn't see the Emperor as this evil old man that shoots lightning out of his hands, but as the aged Chancellor Palpatine, all around good guy. Even if he is that evil old man who shoots lightning.
Of note early in Star Wars is Luke's desire to go to the Academy, not some secret Rebel "good guy" academy but an Imperial military school to train fighter pilots. Even the film's hero wanted to join with the Empire, though not for ideological reasons.
So from that perspective the Imperial military is the legitimate bearer of arms, heir to the peacekeeping role of the Jedi but far more egalitarian and inclusive. The Rebels are just that, malcontent extremists that blow stuff up and kill people.
The Empire allows private ownership of hyperspace capable spacecraft, freedom of movement. Private ownership and carrying of weapons seems permitted, everyone seems to have a blaster at their side or at least stashed in their speeder. We don't really get an idea of the state of "free speech" from the films, except that droids with secret Death Star plans are not a subject of discussion. We don't really get the impression of a severely repressive society, though I do wonder about the tax rates.

The Rebels fight to restore the Republic, but the Empire did not destroy the Republic, rather it collapsed under its own rotting bulk and the Empire emerged to prevent the galaxy from descending into chaos. Further, the rebellion is led by a collection of former Senators, the very class of people whose greed and corruption brought down the Republic in the first place. We don't know what they plan to do after winning the war, the best we can hope for is that they will attempt to restore the Republic but with an army to maintain order rather than the now extinct Jedi.
The Empire is choosing targets out of military imperatives, though excessive force is brought to bear in some cases. Alderaan is the extreme case, though we're given reason to believe that it was a Rebel enclave destroyed only because Leia refused to give them "another target, a military target" in the words of Tarkin. Further, Leia is captured aboard a diplomatic transport which is smuggling classified documents with the intent of turning them over to the Rebels. She is travelling under the protection of her planet and presumably the Empire on a mission to aid insurgents bent on the overthrow of the government, and while she is identified as a Senator! Vader rightly characterizes her as "traitor."
So we have an arguably legitimate government with a history of excessive force against insurgents versus a small faction of extremist guerrillas led by ex-Senators who fly around attacking shipping lanes and blowing stuff up, and have shown no indication that they plan to do anything better than what failed before should the win the fight.
Empire = order and security. Rebels = chaos and uncertainty. Most citizens, when not oppressed severely will choose the former. The Empire is a more defensible position, with the Rebels we have to assume a high degree of faith in their intentions and ability to improve the lot of the average citizen, who isn't doing that bad as long as he keeps his head up and mouth shut in certain company. ???
Of course in all seriousness I'd probably find myself with the Rebellion somewhere along the line, just because I have a problem with authority. Particualrly when it hides behind a mask and jabbers on about some all-powerful force controlling... everything. No mystical energy field controls my destiny.

*I went back and re-read your first reply in this thread, Cobra, from August 2004. I see your points a lot better now (and not just because of this most recent movie).

I remember Padme's consternation and dismay when Anakin remarked angrily that something she'd said "sounds separatist."
(Probably that's where I'd be).

Also, I wish Lucas would have cut some of the action scenes and devoted more time to developing the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin, and Anakin's further disaffection with the Jedi. That, and more development of the relationship between Padme and Anakin. Those issues were too simplified/glossed over.

Anakin didn't stop to consider that his actions alone might jeopardize Padme and their love? But he was so power hungry/drunk by that point.

Was interesting watching Palpatine smoothly manipulating Anakin, especially as they were seated in the theater box. When Palpy began talking about the most powerful Sith of all and his apprentice, that should have been a red flag to Anakin...as to WHO that apprentice had been.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-06-08 04:50:07

Anakin: OK, do I get anything?
Palpatine: Yes, a spiffy new name... Vader. Oh yes, I need you to senselessly massacre some kids.

*Maybe I've been hanging around too much with the Dark Shadows fans, to think up questions I probably otherwise wouldn't have...

Does anyone more well-versed in the Star Wars saga than I (yes, I've seen all 6 movies) know how a Sith name is determined? Next name on the roster is yours or the Sith Lord who initiates you simply gives a name which comes to mind?

Also, at the end of the film Yoda mentions Obi-Wan's old mentor, Qui-Gon Jinn; as if there might be a reuniting of that old friendship on Tatooine...while waiting for Luke to grow up. Some sort of mystical rapport/communion?

I think dickbill is generally correct in saying the saga has "been done"...but they could do an intermediate movie between this time (twins just born and off to their new homes) and just prior to Luke encountering Obi-Wan in the wilderness. The intermediate movie could deal with the Empire's expansion, the continued building of the Death Star, Vader's quest to find his children, near-miss encounters while trying to hunt down and exterminate the remaining Jedi Masters, etc. It could be an interesting film and if they'd tone it down abit with the massive bombardment of special effects; get back more with the human (or whatever they are) drama elements, etc.

--Cindy

P.S.: One other question: Do you suppose Vader killed Obi-Wan immediately and without any sort of mercy in the 1st film simply out of "principle" -- "he's a Jedi; get him" -- or more because Obi-Wan didn't help him all those years ago during his suffering of those terrible injuries on that volcano planet and merely leaving him to die? I think it's a combination of both.

srmeaney · 2005-06-08 05:20:07

As for the demise of the young Jedi, most of the people in the theater where I was cheered. They'd been waiting a long time. Sick puppies, but when that first kid emerged from hiding it just had to happen. It's really about the only thing that brands the Sith as really "evil" in the whole movie when you get down to it.

Frankly the Super long Starwars Ad spun a better story.

It wasnt a sniveling worm, it was: Cant learn that kind of power from a jedi, secret republic records say this world has many sith secrets you can learn from...Anakin my dear fellow, I may need your help with something when you get back...Palpatine finds proof that the clone armies and droid armies were set in motion by Jedi...Jedi council exposed...they try to kill him and overthrow the republic...Palpatine flees coruscant...retrieves Anakin who is on his Sith training sebatical...takes control of as much of the clone army as he can and retakes the republic from the evil Jedi...tries to arrest the vermin hold up in the temple but they refuse to surrender...culminating in a showdown with general Kenobi...Kenobie escapes with the children of Skywalker (even though Anakin doesnt know they exist) and Anakin has one friend in the universe: the emperor and a republic that he is devoted to restoring and maintaining for the good of all.

Lucus spins a good Ad but the Movie failed to meet that level of quality and strength characteristic of Starwars. I read a few of the books, there were Sith who could Supernova a binary star system... Where was that level of power? Even the novelized Sith had more 'moral fibre' than that kid with issues.

Palomar · 2005-06-08 05:53:27

I think dickbill is generally correct in saying the saga has "been done"...but they could do an intermediate movie between this time (twins just born and off to their new homes) and just prior to Luke encountering Obi-Wan in the wilderness. The intermediate movie could deal with the Empire's expansion, the continued building of the Death Star, Vader's quest to find his children, near-miss encounters while trying to hunt down and exterminate the remaining Jedi Masters, etc. It could be an interesting film and if they'd tone it down abit with the massive bombardment of special effects; get back more with the human (or whatever they are) drama elements, etc.
--Cindy
P.S.: One other question: Do you suppose Vader killed Obi-Wan immediately and without any sort of mercy in the 1st film simply out of "principle" -- "he's a Jedi; get him" -- or more because Obi-Wan didn't help him all those years ago during his suffering of those terrible injuries on that volcano planet and merely leaving him to die? I think it's a combination of both.

*There is yet another question an "intermediate" movie might help resolve: How did the Sith lose their credibility (to a point) with the NON-believers in the Empire? Remember the scene in the 1st ST film, where one of the generals (or whatever) seated at the black table sneeringly mocked Vader's devotion to the mystical Dark Side/Force "silly nonsense"? Can't recall the exact quote, but you recall the scene. Vader warns him and begins choking him with his powers.

The Empire was founded by Sith...yet even Tarkin (would be interesting to see his rise in affluence and power too) doesn't seem Sith religious. None of them do, except Vader and of course the Emperor.

What happened there?

C'mon, Mr. Lucas...give us that "intermediate" movie!

--Cindy

srmeaney · 2005-06-08 06:07:01

C'mon, Mr. Lucas...give us that "intermediate" movie!

Starwars: Warlord, Admiral Tarkin having betrayed Elanil Antillies of Alderaan to the Emperor as a Royal hostage goes to the Isolated world of Arina and on orders from Lord Vader and begins landing a droid army to occupy the outer systems...beyond the republic.

Laskar Senn opens his eyes to the darkness of the tent...(will continue later) got some Glass House to catch up on)

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