Political Potpourri V - Continued from previous

Grypd · 2005-06-02 09:36:22

Well the constitution was over 66000 words in length and was so rock hard in language that any future changes where almost doomed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4603883.stm]BBC article

A French teacher Etienne Chouard read the constitution and was so opposed to it he created a website as to why he was voting "Non". Apparently at its height it was getting 25000 hits a day and was one of the fundamental reasons people voted no. People could read the articles and where more inclined to believe it than what there own leaders where telling them. Both the French and Dutch no campaigns where primarily people revolutions with few big names on its side unlike the yes campaigns which where wheeling in the big guns routinely. Still didnt help them, and in the case of Jacque Chirac each time he appeared on national tv in support of the yes campaign it actually increased the no vote.

It is of interest that the reasons people voted no are actually different in some important fundamentals between France and Holland. French voters disliked the way the treaty made europe more free market and reduced there standard of protectionist economics. They also believed that the treaty would give Britain more power over Europe and to make France weaker. Holland though was just disillusioned with the EU and with the slow economic growth and high unemployment that monetary union had produced. Also both Holland and France had issues with their leadership that they wanted to air. One disturbing thing to note is that the No campaign in Holland had a very strong far right bias to it and the Dutch responded well to it.

Still the future of the EU is now open to question and there will be a lot of bickering and factional fighting to come. Actually from a purely national perspective this gives the UK a lot of power at the moment to shape how europe will evolve. The UK takes over presidency of Europe in July and is also holding the G8 summit at the begining of July too.

Grypd · 2005-06-02 09:52:08

1 Million people to march on Edinburgh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4594905.stm]Bob Geldofs appeal for world poverty

With the G8 summit being held in Gleneagles and with a very high security prescence in the area to protect the leaders and to ensure that the summit goes of peacefully unlike the Genoa 2001, Sir Bob does this.

He has asked for everybody to march on Edinburgh to put pressure on world leaders to solve Africas debt and poverty situation. He asks for a Million people to march to Edinburgh and for the people of Edinburgh to take them in. This to happen after the three concerts that are being held in Europe and the one in the USA. Needless to say the Edinburgh city council and Lothian police are having kittens. There is a lot of celebrity support with the likes of John Travolta flying his own jet in a convoy of aircraft to Scotland.

Just an aside Edinburghs population is only 456,000 people where are these people to stay, what are they to eat and drink and exactly who is going to pay for this. At the least the last is answerable me the Scottish taxpayer. Needless to say with so many violent fringe groups opposed to globalisation the likehood of trouble just dramatically increased.

Fledi · 2005-06-02 09:56:35

I wish there would even just be a vote about the constitution at all in Germany. The way politicians were not asking the people about things like where the capital should be or this constitution is highly undemocratic. There is not even much information about the contents in the media, but I agree it is way too large in volume, it shouldn't be more than a few pages at maximum.

Palomar · 2005-06-02 10:03:37

Just an aside Edinburghs population is only 456,000 people where are these people to stay, what are they to eat and drink and exactly who is going to pay for this. At the least the last is answerable me the Scottish taxpayer.

*Oh, of course. While wealthy, famous people get the limelight the taxpayer's spine is stepped on.

I don't know this Sir Bob dude, so I'll comment on John Travolta: Why doesn't he sell that fancy, expensive private jet of his and donate the money instead?

::sigh:: But this is where I feel "conflicted." I do appreciate Travolta, Bono, recently Brad Pitt, etc., standing up and trying to bring attention to the world's problems. That's honorable of them. And likely they are charitable and generous as their own wallets go.

But don't burden the taxpayer. My sister, for instance, works hard. She's a divorcee with a son who has mild mental retardation. He's proven himself basically unemployable, the ex-husband/father's child support payments are only sporadic, and state organizations won't even help find a suitable job (simple tasks) for my nephew. My sister is NOT asking for a "hand-out"; she only wants them to help him find some sort of job so he can earn a bit of money and help stretch the budget. Many taxpayers already have enough of their own headaches. But those "in the middle" always get the squeeze, don't they?

If I lived in Edinburgh, I'd be very concerned. Especially for safety and etc. (possible troublemakers coming in, violent protests).

And it's absurd that a city of half a million people be "expected" to host an influx of strangers twice that size.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-06-02 10:11:48

The constitution was an attempt laudable to bind all the treaties and to give the EU a way to be more effective rather than the not so succesful entity it is currently. With clearer boundaries and a faster and more flexible leadership structure it was hoped it would be able to be the basis of a true European goverment.

Trouble is that with all the negociation it became a Chimera and of all the different view points across Europe it just appeared to many as a bad thing. Worse it is so long and filled with clauses and sureities that it is like the unbreakable contract. A true constitution should be about proudly proclaiming the rights of a person and how Europe was to ensure these happened. Then we could have had a charter that would include all the present treaties to create the Super EU that would have worked within the constitutions boundaries.

dicktice · 2005-06-02 10:20:40

Think of it as a "brainstorm" document. Now for the "pruning" session, this summer. It sure beats the ways of the past: World Wars I and II, not to mention the Cold War even you kiddies remember.

Grypd · 2005-06-02 10:27:40

Having attempted to read an english translated version it could never be classed as brainstorming. Actually i found it to be a brainnumbing experience it is that dry.

I would rather read election manifestos from the recent election we had in the UK than that docuement. And this Constitution is supposed to sell itself to the people of Europe.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-02 10:39:52

Having attempted to read an english translated version it could never be classed as brainstorming. Actually i found it to be a brainnumbing experience it is that dry.

Good to see that I'm not the only masochist trying to get through that document. I'm looking at the human rights section at the moment, some of this stuff is really poorly thought out. Almost as bad as some of the "Martian Constitutions" that crop up from time to time.

I would rather read election manifestos from the recent election we had in the UK than that docuement.

That almost sounds good at this point. :laugh:

Grypd · 2005-06-02 11:50:21

In case of terminal overload http://www.omrlp.com/]Here is the official website of a British political party. The emphasis is on "party".

Actually due to proportional representation they nearly had an MSP in Scotland.

Back to buisness I agree with all the negociation something was lost in the treaty and it is a mess that really needs a treaty to clarify the clarifications. The little bit about all countries in the EU must ratify it is its deathknell. Actually the language used indicates if a country has not ratified the treaty by november 2007 then that country will be asked to leave the EU. I always thought this was aimed at us the recalitrant Brits.

Still now it is in real trouble and the UK is in the driving seat with France's position very weakened. I wonder what could be done. I expect that France will try certain tactics to attempt to reasert its position with help from its ally Germany. Certainly Germany and France's leaders are meeting this weekend in Luxemburg to discuss the problems.

clark · 2005-06-02 11:58:05

What if they just bail on the EU- and take several members with them to start their own speical EU club.

Seems all the fuss started with the exspansion into Eastern Europe and the threat of Turkey. What's to stop them from starting over without taking eastern Europe or Turkey, ever.

Just change the rules of a new club. [shrug]

We had to fight a civil war to prevent that from occuring. Wonder what you European's might do.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-02 12:01:05

In case of terminal overload Here is the official website of a British political party. The emphasis is on "party".

:laugh: I needed that after the EU constitution.

Just a sample from their "Manicfesto"

Our team of experts has decided that Income Tax has not proved popular with the public and will therefore be abolished. It was started in order to finance the Napoleonic war in 1799 and we now believe that the time is right to announce the cessation of hostilities with Napoleon. Some of the money left in the coffers will be used to fill in our part of the Channel Tunnel in case no one has mentioned it to the French.

Good stuff.

Actually due to proportional representation they nearly had an MSP in Scotland.

Doesn't surprise me, I can see a few of my ancestors voting "Monster Raving Loony".

Grypd · 2005-06-02 12:12:02

What if they just bail on the EU- and take several members with them to start their own speical EU club.
Seems all the fuss started with the exspansion into Eastern Europe and the threat of Turkey. What's to stop them from starting over without taking eastern Europe or Turkey, ever.
Just change the rules of a new club. [shrug]
We had to fight a civil war to prevent that from occuring. Wonder what you European's might do.

It was talked about 2 years ago that France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Luxemburg and possibly Spain would accelerate there program. This was due to the problems with the Monetary Union and this super EU would show the rest of the EU the way to go.

Needless to say it was as a result of political differences in the EU with other countries happy with the way things where or wanting more reform before proceeding. And it was thought that it would be a way to create a more powerful system to be able to balance out the USA's power and China and Indias growing strength. This could still happen.

Palomar · 2005-06-02 12:32:23

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050602/ap_ … VRPUCUl]EU may scrap constitution

"We in Holland, we feel Dutch. We want to work together with France, Germany and England. But we want to be Dutch. Europe exists only in the minds of politicians in Brussels," he said.

European leaders faced the possibility of having to scrap the proposed EU constitution Thursday after Dutch voters rejected it by a massive margin, voicing their concern over dwindling national identity in a rapidly expanding union and increasingly powerful bureaucrats.
The outcome in the Netherlands from the referendum Wednesday — three days after a similar vote in France — was likely to halt the European momentum, which had been welcomed by some as creating a new world power but disdained by others as smothering their cultures in a vast superstate.

*I think I can understand the concern about "smothered culture." I love America, but there are times when the "pop culture" seems so overwhelmingly banal. Too much mediocrity. Besides, variety is always desireable IMO.

--Cindy

Fledi · 2005-06-02 13:49:20

Variety is good, the problems start when one coutry or a group of them tries to force their particular way onto the others.
That idea of a core Europe was probably the biggest bullsh*t these politicians thought out in recent years. What else would that mean as another axis, which would practically force everyone not within the "core" into an opposing alliance to compensate.
But luckily the current conservative/market liberal opposition in Germany is against this idea, although they don't want Turkey in the EU, and it's almost certain they'll win the election this fall. The tough question is will they be able to come up with a solution to the economic crisis in time. I hope they will even though Angela Merkel fired one of their economic experts some months ago, but there might still be enogh of them left there.

Grypd · 2005-06-02 15:20:32

If they find a cure for the economic doldrums that Europe has not only will I applaud I think you will find my country will too. In the UK we are doing ok not great but ok.

Still the amount of people who moved here to work from Poland has been one of the greatest benefits of the EU to us. They pay taxes they work hard and the jobs the social scroungers we have would not do, are now getting done.

DonPanic · 2005-06-02 17:54:22

LO
I voted NO to European Constitution mainly because rules of its admenments are so tough that any admenment becomes impossible.
NO again because the European Central Bank direction has no counterpower, and its politic is aimed to maintain the € value, regardless of the european economy activity level, while Greenspan's action is aimed at US economy activity level.
NO again because middle sized european countries such as Nederland or Belgium have seen their political wheight reduced by the Constitution such as Cyprus + Malta which economic level is just about nothing have the same political wheight as Nederland or Belgium.
NO also because Bolkenstein Directive allows any society to work in an union member country under laws of the originated country of that society.
Would Americans accept that an indian or chinese society would be allowed to operate in the US territory under indian or chinese laws, using workers in the US territory with indian or chinese level wages ?
That is the kind of eurobureaucrats diktat I want to be smashed.
I want a polish society to operate in France with workers under french wage level and french social laws, and paying taxes on benefits in France.
I dont fear polish workers, plenty went to work in french charcoal mines in the fifties, their children became french citizens.

Is France weakened with this NO vote ?

Not quite sure.
Why France and not Nederland ?
Many Europeans agree with the dutch and french to struggle for keeping their social rights.
British Labour eurodeputies voted for a 48 hours a week work limit at the Europarliament.
Sure Chirac is weakened, but German and France power come from economics, therefore, wether France or Germany are strong of weak rely on the amont of money they can invest in the Euro Union, in develloping technology and research, that means on their economical wealth and having less unemployment and good exportations is a more sure way to recover power than a yes or no answer to a misconceived constitution.

I don't mind France or Europe to be superpowers, I want France to be a nice country to live in !
And rigth now, too many people do not live well, so if they live better, they will vote yes further on, and so shall I.

dickbill · 2005-06-02 21:14:50

Is France weakened with this NO vote ?
Not quite sure.

Hmmm, not sure about that.
For example, you know about the tractation between Iran and EU. Eu was certainly a moderator in the issue, otherwise I believe Iran would have been striken a long time ago by US or Israel, as announced by Dick Cheney himself. Remember he said somethiong like " well, Israel might strike first and let the international community clean the mess after". That didn't happened, probably because of the strong involvment of the EU who buffered the situation.
But now, the Iranian might ask, "what credibility has the EU now? we will be attacked anyway, and the french and the german alone won't do or can't do anything alone so we might as well..." and so on.
So, the No change the political situation worlwide.

I also followed the ITER (an international project to control thermonuclear fusion) story. Japan was a strong bider in this project but they couldn't outweight the EU voices united to support the frecnh site at Cadarach.
I was curious to read the Japanese reaction. The first morning after the frrench No, I did a search on Yahoo and found that a Japanese minister had already declared somthing like "well, the french have spoken to Chirac, they want him to invest in social reforms, not in scientific international projects, ITER should be better in Japan". You see the picture.

In short, I think this "NO" gonna cost a lot, in the short term, to the french and to the other people that depended of the EU credibility. What Europe needs now are charismatic leaders like De gaulle or Adenauer, able to redinamise an European ideal based on a model not like the anglosaxon model, as said Chirac (but this is not Chirac invention I precise). By the way, Chirac made another mistake : mix together Sarkozy and Villepin. He is really dumb.
I predict it's not gonna take long before you gonna see a fight between these two.
And Villepin is a clown if he thinks he can fix the unemployment rate as fast as he does say it, or maybe he knows that the unemployemnt will be fixed by itserf, via the demographic trend to aging, and that the only thing to do is wait and take credit for anything positive that happen.

PS :No, I have not been paid, like Challhbabi or Halwarwi, by the CIA or the pentagone to cheat on Chirac. It's my natural temper.

DonPanic · 2005-06-03 02:39:25

LO
Europe isn't engaged as so in nuclear negociations with Iran.
It's the GB, Germany and France troïka, helped with an implicit threat of Israeli or US strikes at Iran nuke plants ifever negociations should fail. 3 countries play the nice fellows, Israel and USA play the bad boys role.
All rely on the the Iran leaders bet on israeli or US will to strike or not considering iranese threat on more mess in Iraq or in Palestine should their nuke plants be air bombed.

For Iter, french "no" to the European constitution has nothing to see, Russia, China and rest of Europe strongly support France for geographical or political reasons.
Japan is just dealing hard return of supply commands to the japanese industry, Japan want 20% and rest of the Iter consortium is ready on only the % of japanese part of Iter financement. In background, France proposes to some european partners to rise her and their parts of Iter financement to substitute to the japanese part, as some poker trick, Japan studies if France has the means of that trick.

What's sure is that french leaders concept of Europe as a superpower competing diplomaticly, economically and militarily USA thanks to their "so wise leadership", is a flop, but other european countries sure dont want the froggy to become a bully

French leaders should first concentrate on french poor economy dynamic responsible for that "no" instead of seeing themselves as an example for the world.

Gennaro · 2005-06-03 05:58:29

Just out of curiosity I downloaded a PDF of the EU constitution to see what all the brouhaha is about. The constitution, the core framework of government, the bones on which everything else rests.
It's three hundred and twenty five pages long. Three hundred and twenty five pages!. It still hasn't loaded the end. They put everything under the sun in there, foreign policy is covered in the constitution. I've only skimmed through a few pages of it and already it looks like an ill-conceived mash, no wonder it's being rejected so forcefully.

Nooo, you found out... had almost hoped this embarrassing document would be passed over in silence.

Indeed, the moronic oligarchy posing as the cream of the crop in Europe and living well on the taxpayer's expense obviously don't even know what a constitution is.

Good luck to anyone trying to read the whole thing.

Grypd · 2005-06-03 16:43:17

Just out of curiosity I downloaded a PDF of the EU constitution to see what all the brouhaha is about. The constitution, the core framework of government, the bones on which everything else rests.
It's three hundred and twenty five pages long. Three hundred and twenty five pages!. It still hasn't loaded the end. They put everything under the sun in there, foreign policy is covered in the constitution. I've only skimmed through a few pages of it and already it looks like an ill-conceived mash, no wonder it's being rejected so forcefully.
Nooo, you found out... had almost hoped this embarrassing document would be passed over in silence.
Indeed, the moronic oligarchy posing as the cream of the crop in Europe and living well on the taxpayer's expense obviously don't even know what a constitution is.
Good luck to anyone trying to read the whole thing.

It was a moronic docuement but it does have certain bits that can be saved. And are more or less likely to be done even if as is suspected the constitution is considered dead.

The plans for a European police and criminal service are of benefit to everyone especially with there aim to hunt down the international nature of many crimes.

The European defence agency is a more or less given as there are already treaties to create the European army and there will be a need to provide a background service to create policy and ensure equipment is to standard. With the peace dividend and the drastic reductions in many european armies any plan to use European troops will need a lot of work. But having a quick easy to move core would be of great benefit and makes sense.

A permanent elected president to provide leadership for the EU is also a sensible tenet of the treaty that will likely be carried on. And as he or she and the council of ministers must be more accountable they will be more in the public eye.

Another tenet was to allow countries elected parliaments put forward legislation for consideration of the whole EU. This would have made the EU more accountable and appear more open to the electorate of the various states.

Still as far as I can see the Constitution is dead and I cannot say that it was a bad thing. Still the EU is not dead as it has done some good and this should be remembered and can still operate with the current treaties. The one thing the EU has given that should really be mentioned is that no country that is a member has been involved in armed conflict since its inception as the commen market. This is good as Europe is easily the most murderous collection of peoples on Earth.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-03 18:16:07

Quote
This is good as Europe is easily the most murderous collection of peoples on Earth.

What on Earth makes you state such an obnoxious allegation?
???

I wouldn't say Europeans are more "murderous" than other peoples, just better at it than most.

That's where we Americans got it from.

DonPanic · 2005-06-04 04:22:50

LO
Surrealistic !
The Spanishes voted Yes to the EuroConstitution WITHOUT having it all. They could get a sumarize in their press, but to have it all, they soulld have to PAY for a full edition.

I was supposed to receive the full constitution book in my mailbox, I didn't even received it.
Thanks to the web, I downloaded it as PDF, a real pensum to read it. My girl who hates to read on a screen had to go to my district town hall to get the full edition.
Took me two whole weeks to read it, though I didn't got what is a "Social Market Economy", not any definition nor description of it, supposed to rule the EU.
When ratificated by national parliaments, wonder if the deputies even had the COURAGE to read it all...

In France, the official referendum campaign was
"you have the choice to vote Yes or Yes."
As we are a people which like to cross the streets anywhere else except in the places we're supposed to...

dickbill · 2005-06-04 08:15:27

LO
Surrealistic !
The Spanishes voted Yes to the EuroConstitution WITHOUT having it all. They could get a sumarize in their press, but to have it all, they soulld have to PAY for a full edition.

This fuzziness reminds me of the question for the referendum in Quebec,

"Acceptez-vous que le Québec devienne souverain, après avoir offert formellement au Canada un nouveau partenariat économique et politique, dans le cadre du projet de loi sur l'avenir du Québec et de l'entente signée le 12 juin 1995?"

The English translation was also on the ballot: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Strangely again, after such a clear question, the NO won.This was crowned by Parizeau's genial comment (after his defeat he was pissed) on the influence of money and ethnic votes.

It seems that politicians, on purpose, introduce fuzziness and incertitude in formulations of important issues such as all interpretations and future modifications, plus their opposites, are always possible. I guess it was the same thing In the case of the EU constitution.

Palomar · 2005-06-04 09:53:49

*If they don't love Voltaire, it's all pointless. :;):

-*-

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … _quran]Now it's nit-picking, IMO

As much as I disdain all religion, of course I believe everyone's religious beliefs and materials should be respected. The Koran shouldn't be subjected to abuse, etc.

But this is bordering on paranoia, IMO. What next? Headlines of "Fly Lands On Koran" -? // "Dust Motes Bombard Gitmo Korans" -? // "Guard's Hair Falls On Koran" -? // "Sneeze Spray Drifts Towards Koran" -?

We've got to be respectful and careful, yes. But to the point of tip-toeing around on eggshells and being absurdly fearful of the slightest thing?

In some Muslim nations, Western soldiers aren't even allowed to have Bibles in their possession. At least the Gitmo prisoners have their holy book.

--Cindy

Rxke · 2005-06-04 11:20:35

You have to understand that a Koran is not like a Bible, it's more like a sacred object, it is even forbidden to trash old, unreadable/whatever Korans etc. They are all kept.

If we Westerners would , say, unintentionally spill coffee on a bible, we'd be sorry for having ruined a *book*, but not feeling we desecrated a religious object, (though you might *feel* a bit bad, irreverend about it, depending how devout you are, I suppose...)

Muslems would feel like they had made a serious sin.
So this is -again- a clash of cultures/religions/ways of looking at things.

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