Political Potpourri V - Continued from previous

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-31 12:01:32

Is it all that important if this *type* of thread crashes?

That's why this is the perfect place for it, wouldn't want to crash a thread that isn't a silly rambling mess already.

They argue their diamettrically opposing politcal beliefs on a cross country road trip to the Ohio primaries in a last ditch effort to save America from having to choose between a radical born-again Republican, and a left-leaning communist Democrat.

See, back on topic.

But your movie needs a fight scene, preferably one where the Republican keeps attacking people that other than those that just hit him and the Democrat keeps calling the cops even though he knows they'll never come.

clark · 2005-05-31 12:09:31

Well, on the way to Ohio, they take a detour down south. The Right leaning brother ends up demolishing a clan gathering, because as he quips, "they're just too soft."

The Left leaning brother is constantly getting mugged, so the brothers have to take a lot of side jobs along the way for gas and food.

At one point, the pair have to get married to each other, but end up arguing over who would obey who, and get distracted by some other zanny side adventure that has little to do with the overall plot.

Any more requests?

BWhite · 2005-05-31 12:18:06

"The new ruler must determine all the injuries that he will need to inflict. He must inflict them once and for all."

Wimpy Romans beget quagmires.

BWhite · 2005-05-31 13:03:28

http://instapundit.com/archives/023326.php]Glenn Reynolds is a very pro-Bush blogger. Read his links about torture.

BWhite · 2005-05-31 13:14:04

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php … 282]Andrew Sullivan:

But we can parse what we know and the empirical evidence points to widespread abuse and torture of detainees in every field of operation. The patterns of abuse were very similar - geared toward humiliation of Muslims through nakedness, use of dogs, sexual shame, etc. - and they crop up everywhere. Abu Ghraib was "Gitmoized" and techniques approved for the CIA in cases of al Qaeda big-shots "migrated" throughout the system, as the government reports delicately put it. The memos lowering U.S. moral standards were part of the Iraq war-plan, even though no observers would dispute that the Iraq war was covered by the Geneva Conventions in every respect. The evidence of abuse - far greater than any infractions in domestic U.S. jails - is now simply indisputable. It is telling, it seems to me, that the administration's essential defense now is that all the abuse was a result of military insubordination, i.e. that it was not in control of its own soldiers. So you get to pick between a deliberate legal choice of abuse and incompetence on an epic scale. But if it was incompetence, why have none of the architects been fired? In fact, they've been rewarded.

Heh!

And Cheney is outraged. We aren't as bad as Hitler, so stop whining.

clark · 2005-05-31 13:43:32

Maybe the real disconnect for all sides is the premise that our enemies can be brought to the table.

I think one view would suggest the attempt, which calls for moderation in our actions. Through moderation we can leave the chair open for dialogue.

I think the other view would suggest that such attempts are unwise and ultimetly self-defeating. This would lead us to act in an aggressive manner to seek submission through capitulation.

Torture works for one of these approaches, and undermines the other.

This will further polarize the situation, and reduce the ability for any force of moderation to gain traction.

But at least we're not as bad as Hitler. Yet.

Grypd · 2005-05-31 16:32:59

Well a little flair up between Boeing and Airbus has both the EU and the USA going to court.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4594581.stm]BBC Article

The USA blames the EU over the subsidies it has given to fund research in the civilian Airbus planes where the EU states its just a more open standard as the USA supplies a lot of military research funds to Boeing. In the end it is all down to aparent market share where boeing with its aging standard of planes has lost to Airbus. And Airbus has plans to produce a new smaller class that will be a direct threat to the dreamliner which Boeing hopes to be its saviour and give it back its market share. Anyway of to the WTO we all will go.

srmeaney · 2005-06-01 08:23:00

Does any one remember the name of the other prison in Baghdad thats right next to the airport (it is in one of the hotels) where they keep all the intellectual prisoners, scientists who might know something useful?

BWhite · 2005-06-01 10:01:53

Hey Cobra, http://www.metrobeat.net/gbase/Expedite … A3291]this made me think about you especially the banner that read:

"Peace through superior firepower"

Best comment I saw on this asked, "why aren't these eager young Republicans enlisting the military?"

Edited By BWhite on 1117641816

BWhite · 2005-06-01 10:05:07

Wrong link at first. Its fixed now. The other link was to an article saying that the withheld Bolton documents will reveal companies that were trading with China, illegally.

Sorry for the error.

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-01 11:06:31

Hey Cobra, this made me think about you especially the banner that read:
"Peace through superior firepower"

Bah, they went about it all wrong. Staging a fake protest is too easy to discredit, attending a real one and taking their arguments to a ridiculous extreme is much more effective, as well as just being fun.

Best comment I saw on this asked, "why aren't these eager young Republicans enlisting the military?"

That's a valid point there. I'm mildly surprised no one here has tried directly nailing me with that yet.
:;):

While I can't speak for all the younger pro-war types, in my case a minor injury disqualifies me under the current regs. Willing and able, but undeployable. :hm:

I can still fight commies and pinkos here though.

BWhite · 2005-06-01 11:14:44

Best comment I saw on this asked, "why aren't these eager young Republicans enlisting the military?"
That's a valid point there. I'm mildly surprised no one here has tried directly nailing me with that yet.
:;):
While I can't speak for all the younger pro-war types, in my case a minor injury disqualifies me under the current regs. Willing and able, but undeployable. :hm:
I can still fight commies and pinkos here though.

Nah, we love you, man. Besides, I figured you are too old. <snark> :;):

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-01 11:28:42

Nah, we love you, man. Besides, I figured you are too old. <snark>

Just a little too old.

BWhite · 2005-06-01 11:29:31

Nah, we love you, man. Besides, I figured you are too old. <snark>
Just a little too old.

Not me, I am waaay too old. ???

clark · 2005-06-01 11:38:59

Reserves are bumping up the age limit... standards are coming down...

Cobra, you could always volunteer to drive a truck (I hear they pay well) in Iraq.

Grypd · 2005-06-01 12:48:47

Well a little jump across the Atlantic, The Dutch are currently voting in there referendum on the European constitution and the initial reports are that turn out has well passed 30% of the population and that the vote will be "Nee" and at 60% voting negative the constitution will be dead.

If it has a chance it will be reviewed on june the 16th as the political leaders of the union meet to ask what happens and what to do next. With the UK due to take over the running presidency of the Union in July this means that the future of the EU and of its advancement will only happen if the UK can get it done.

With France's position very weakened this could allow for big changes in how the EU operates and its current "social" method of operation going towards a more "free market" vision.

Still the doom and gloom is current in many european capitals and many believe that the Union is now doomed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4599681.stm]BBC article on German plans

Hans Eichel has been reported at being at a meeting where Germany plans to withdraw from the EU and the Euro. They plan to blame the Euro for Germanys current economic weakness. Though the German goverment denies the claim it comes at a very sensitive time.

Palomar · 2005-06-01 14:17:13

Well a little jump across the Atlantic, The Dutch are currently voting in there referendum on the European constitution and the initial reports are that turn out has well passed 30% of the population and that the vote will be "Nee" and at 60% voting negative the constitution will be dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050601/ap_ … RPUCUl]The Dutch vote "no."

*Turnout was 62% -- far exceeding expectations.

The vote was 63% No, 37% Yes.

A more remarkable "no" vote than France, with 55% "no" there.

Distrust of Dutch politicians seemed to be a major factor.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-06-01 15:14:11

Interesting is what will happen now. As the EU can run on current treaties there is no immediate disaster but for reform to happen there will need to be a lot of negociation and for europe the status quo it will be.

Still there is always a possibility of a wide EU with a small group going it alone to create a core EU which will be a lot closer bonded. For France, Germany, Belgium, Italy and possibly spain this is a possibility that has been forwarded over the years. And there is still the possibility that the EU becomes a lot weaker.

Fledi · 2005-06-01 16:55:31

You know, in recent years Germany and France were trying to dominate the rest of the EU more and more. For example, when Portugal failed to meet the "stability criteria" that were brought into the Mastricht treaty by the German government in the '90s, they were fined and got a EU comission to make drastic changes to the way their local economy was functioning. Now Germany failed to meet these same criteria for the 3rd time in a row and guess what? Nothing happened.
Somehow I had this illusion that they learned something from those thousand years or so of European wars and would finally begin to honestly cooperate on the basis that all members are treated equal. Instead we have now probably the forming of two blocks within Europe, one tending towards free market economies and the other one to socialism. I don't want to sound too pessimistic but history books speak quite a clear language of what happened in Europe in most cases (probably all?) previously, when two opposing blocks formed.
By the way Schroeder just practically resigned last week by calling for early new elections this fall. Even in the media more and more people are talking openly about the possibility that the next government could be the last democratic one if they fail to solve the economic problems that are slowly drifting out of control.
I'm quite fed up with the current political situation here and almost everywhere else in the world, this would be a good time to leave Earth for Mars IMHO.

Grypd · 2005-06-01 17:33:49

Fledi i understand. Germany like many countries that use a social goverment basis are struggling to deal with the way the world is working at the moment. Frankly everyone is struggling but for Germany and France it is worse.

Add to Germanys woes the rebuilding of the Eastern side and we have an unhappy situation. It was this rebuilding that has been the single biggest drain on Germany and it has still a lot to go.

I can only hope that we dont have the situation where the Social based countries form one faction and the more free market countries in another.

Fledi · 2005-06-01 17:59:55

Yeah and that rebuilding of the eastern part went on with leaving most of the old commie bureocrats still in office, who would take away children from their parents if those showed to be against the system or the soldiers who would shoot refugees at the Wall in exchange for a two weeks vacation.
Frankly, there's been more change in the way Hungary is now, the other country that I know from close up, than former East Germany.

Palomar · 2005-06-02 05:38:46

*I saw on Yahoo! news yesterday that the Euro took a bit of a beating after the Dutch "no" vote. Was going to post that article, but updates say the Euro is rebounding and is stronger against the dollar today.

Fledi:

You know, in recent years Germany and France were trying to dominate the rest of the EU more and more. For example, when Portugal failed to meet the "stability criteria" that were brought into the Mastricht treaty by the German government in the '90s, they were fined and got a EU comission to make drastic changes to the way their local economy was functioning. Now Germany failed to meet these same criteria for the 3rd time in a row and guess what? Nothing happened.
Somehow I had this illusion that they learned something from those thousand years or so of European wars and would finally begin to honestly cooperate on the basis that all members are treated equal. Instead we have now probably the forming of two blocks within Europe, one tending towards free market economies and the other one to socialism. I don't want to sound too pessimistic but history books speak quite a clear language of what happened in Europe in most cases (probably all?) previously, when two opposing blocks formed.

Speaking in general: It seems humans are loathe to learn from history. Frighteningly loathe. You'd think with all the media outlets, resources, libraries, etc., something would sink in eventually and people would act for betterment. That doesn't often seem to be the case, however. One can more easily forgive the mistakes of the past (centuries ago), when the printed word didn't exist and humans wallowed in ignorance.

What's the excuse today? ???

Will humans ever learn from their mistakes? Geez.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-06-02 05:46:47

Will humans ever learn from their mistakes? Geez.

If we are to learn from history, no. :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2005-06-02 05:55:27

Just out of curiosity I downloaded a PDF of the EU constitution to see what all the brouhaha is about. The constitution, the core framework of government, the bones on which everything else rests.

It's three hundred and twenty five pages long. Three hundred and twenty five pages!. It still hasn't loaded the end. They put everything under the sun in there, foreign policy is covered in the constitution. I've only skimmed through a few pages of it and already it looks like an ill-conceived mash, no wonder it's being rejected so forcefully.

Somehow I won't be surprised if I find speed limits and tolls enumerated.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1117713429

Palomar · 2005-06-02 06:07:46

Just out of curiosity I downloaded a PDF of the EU constitution to see what all the brouhaha is about. The constitution, the core framework of government, the bones on which everything else rests.
It's three hundred and twenty five pages long. Three hundred and twenty five pages!. It still hasn't loaded the end. They put everything under the sun in there, foreign policy is covered in the constitution. I've only skimmed through a few pages of it and already it looks like an ill-conceived mash, no wonder it's being rejected so forcefully.
Somehow I won't be surprised if I find speed limits and tolls enumerated.

*I certainly don't wish the EU any bad luck. But the phrase "new wine into old wine skins" (it doesn't work) comes to mind...

Will be watching future developments. At any rate, it's more interesting than U.S. politics, IMO.

--Cindy

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