Empire vs Rebel Alliance

Gennaro · 2005-05-23 05:33:16

Haven't seen the new one yet, but hopes aren't highly set so who knows, I might even like it.

A bit off topic, but a couple of basic flaws of the new film series in my opinion:

1) Centres too much on characters and the impact of a handful of protagonists on the fate of an entire galaxy.

2) Too many reconnections with the earlier movies (of which really only part 4 and 5 were any good, by the way). For example, why should R2D2 feature in part 1 as the later Darth Vader's personal droid!? Why should Anakin come from Tatooine? In part 4 it was said of Tatooine: "well, if there is a bright centre in the universe this it the place it's farthest from". In the new movies you get the impression Tatooine is at the very centre of the universe, next to Courausant and Naboo. Why does the planet feature at all until possibly late in the third episode, I wonder? There are many examples of this sort of bad script writing.

3) Time. To cover the later period of the republic, it would have been advisable to let each installment cover at least a couple of years. Adventures running over a few days simply don't make any sense.

4) And then it's Jar Jar, the action exaggerations (which began in part 6 and the remakes and only have become worse since then), silly droid armies, and all the usual laments of course.

There, guess I had my fill of cranky nerdiness for the day now.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 05:34:34

What do you know? It was the most brutal and violent film in the entire STARWARS saga.

Of course it was, it had to be. Is there a nice, non-violent way to take over the Republic, end the Clone Wars and kill the Jedi? :;):

Dooku gets his hands lopped off and it's too violent, Tarkin blows up friggin' Alderaan and that's okay. :laugh:

Some of the dialog was more earth-political 2001AD than one would ever accept in escapist sci-fi.

Or Germany 1930's, or Russia, or Rome, or any number of other times and places. Timeless themes.

I try to imagine what kind of suit YOU were wearing...

I fit right in with the Sith lords. No costume, but still.

My wife was ready to duel the young woman with the Leia hair that kept calling me "Anakin" though. :laugh:

Some friends tried out my Revenge of the Sith drinking game this weekend, drink every time someone loses a limb or a head. And droids count.

Not to spoil anything for those who haven't seen it, but did anyone else notice the "greyness" this time around? The bad guys weren't entirely evil and the good guys weren't so good. Not so black and white.

Palomar · 2005-05-23 07:03:46

*For what it's worth (not that I get all that wrapped up in the politics of a fictional story), I'd still fight on the side of the Rebel Alliance. Not that I'd want to see the Old Republic reinstated, but rather in the hopes of reform overall. If the post-OR type folks got uppity afterwards, I'd fight on the side of an RA splinter group to try and defeat them too.

There's a better chance of liberty and freedom for all peoples through a reformation within the galaxy -via- the RA than could ever be with the Empire.

This is all based on what politics in Star Wars I've discerned.

(And I have never been in a physical altercation with anyone but my sister in childhood, so it seems, to me, a bit ludicrous for me to even be talking this way...)

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 07:22:51

I'd still fight on the side of the Rebel Alliance. . . . . . If the post-OR type folks got uppity afterwards, I'd fight on the side of an RA splinter group to try and defeat them too.

I wouldn't have pegged you as a compulsive revolutionary.

There's a better chance of liberty and freedom for all peoples through a reformation within the galaxy -via- the RA than could ever be with the Empire.

After the warlord-ism, brandishing of Imperial super-weapons by third-rate planetary dictators, death of billions if not trillions of people and equivalents and generally disagreeable goings on of course.

One of those cases where the principles of good can lead to the greater evil.

However, one could also argue that such will be the outcome after the Emperor's death regardless, in which case it's easier to justify. Worst case scenario for an Imperial or Rebel victory is unrestricted war on a galactic scale so fighting on principles is easier when on some level you accept that everyone's probably going to die a horrible death anyway. Whatever the case, the galaxy is probably screwed.

I blame George Bush.

Gennaro · 2005-05-23 07:36:28

If there is any lesson to learn from the Star Wars saga it's that no particular system is inherently good just because it says it is. And this is even partly in contradiction to the implied message of the films.

What is worse, those who are convinced they're the good side, democratic and all that phraseology yet end up in the wrong, or those who are honest about the power they exercise, call themselves dictators and dress in black uniforms, but do the right thing?

And yes, it's true the drama displayed in Star Wars is ancient and has mythical significance. More precisely, it's partly a Promethean myth. Goes through Roman history in the forms of the Gracchi, Caesar and Diocletian to name a few and there are elements of it in the 20th century revolutionary movements as well, like Cobra is pointing out.

Palomar · 2005-05-23 09:32:43

I'd still fight on the side of the Rebel Alliance. . . . . . If the post-OR type folks got uppity afterwards, I'd fight on the side of an RA splinter group to try and defeat them too.
I wouldn't have pegged you as a compulsive revolutionary.

*What would you have pegged me as? Just wondering. But if you don't want to answer that...

I fit right in with the Sith lords. No costume, but still.

Yep, I figured you didn't like the belt I picked out in the "Attire" thread. :-\ That was the tipping point, right? You considered (albeit briefly) the Mod lifestyle and yet that belt...

So Cobra, would you have little horns running around the top of your head like Darth Maul??

--Cindy :;):

P.S.:

Not to spoil anything for those who haven't seen it, but did anyone else notice the "greyness" this time around? The bad guys weren't entirely evil and the good guys weren't so good. Not so black and white.

Of course in the late 1970s and early 1980s there was still very much a dualistic mindset in pop culture. "Bonanza" -- the old TV western -- is a good example (though it predates the 1970s). The villains were villains (except occasionally one was a quasi-villain who was only super-confused/conflicted, but in the end proved to be good of heart and who quickly forsook wrongdoing) and the Cartwrights were -always- GOOD.

Not sure if people nowadays are simply more saavy/sophisticated or if it's cynicism. :hm:

And wasn't Star Wars originally based on the Japanese tale "The 7 Samauri" -? Or am I confusing that with "The Magnificent Seven" (old western movie starring Yul Brenner)? But I thought SW was based on some Japanese tale of Good vs. Evil (and both highly differentiated).

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 10:28:47

*What would you have pegged me as? Just wondering. But if you don't want to answer that...

Insufficient data for determination.

So Cobra, would you have little horns running around the top of your head like Darth Maul??

:laugh: Just a mild case of "Anakin hair" that needs cutting.

Speaking of Darth Maul, it vexes me why they couldn't just have Dooku in all three prequels instead of changing villains each time. Aside from Maul being scary looking and good for marketing of course.

Better than Episode III's "General Grievous" though. Might as well have called him "General Bad Guy" or "Darth Evil". We have a new Jar Jar.

D'oh! Gennaro's cranky nerdiness is rubbing off on me.

And wasn't Star Wars originally based on the Japanese tale "The 7 Samauri"

Several of Akira Kurosawa's films influenced Lucas, along with numerous other elements.

Odd that despite years of acquaintances in both film and martial arts circles telling me to watch Seven Samurai in particular, I've yet to see it. :hm:
One of these days.

BWhite · 2005-05-23 11:26:29

From David Brin's website:

Here is my eerie-romantic-horror tale interpretation. The George Lucas who brought us Indiana Jones and Eps IV & V is still in there! Shouting for help! Like Anekin trapped inside Vader... Ah symbolism....

From the New Yorker:

What can you say about a civilization where people zip from one solar system to the next as if they were changing their socks but where a woman fails to register for an ultrasound, and thus to realize that she is carrying twins until she is about to give birth?

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema … inema]link

Edited By BWhite on 1116869890

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 12:35:15

From the link Bill posted:

No, the one who gets me is Yoda. May I take the opportunity to enter a brief plea in favor of his extermination?

:laugh: The passage that follows sums essentially what went through my head during the scene in question.

But like the movies themselves, not to be taken too seriously. After all, if we can't enjoy a story about murderous nutbags indiscriminantly slaughtering elitist goons and destroying a free republic amid a pile of severed heads and limbs at least we can pick it apart.

BWhite · 2005-05-23 12:55:42

From the link Bill posted:
No, the one who gets me is Yoda. May I take the opportunity to enter a brief plea in favor of his extermination?
:laugh: The passage that follows sums essentially what went through my head during the scene in question.

Desire your evil heart reveal does.

= = =

Ah, practice my Yoda-speak needs.

clark · 2005-05-23 13:05:58

Lives need you all. :;):

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 13:14:35

At work we are, pass time we must.

clark · 2005-05-23 13:24:20

Very true. :laugh:

Am I the only one that wanted a pet Wookie?

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 13:27:41

Did anyone else notice half the audience snickering when Yoda said "Good relations with the Wookiees I have"?

BWhite · 2005-05-23 13:49:50

Is there a http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentin … htm]lesson here?

= = =

Good relations with wookies? I wonder what the puppies would look like.

clark · 2005-05-23 14:44:52

Lesson?

You're too smart for your own good.

srmeaney · 2005-05-23 19:08:15

Frankly I thought back before 1-3 even surfaced that it would go something like this:
1. Young Jedi (Anakin) and Teacher/Mentor/friend (Obi Wan) working their way up through the Jedi and a number of things start happening where the Jedi are noticing an escalation of intenal Republic hostility and conflict. A number of young Jedi are caught involved in starting wars (and a few of the Masters) ect. Anakin is that dashing hero saving one princess after the next and as happens being "rewarded" for it. But Yoda, Concerned about his lack of discipline takes Anakin to degobah (the swamp) where the young jedi (Anakin) is broken and his ability to see into the future is revealed.

Anakin a genius builder of Droids and designer/test pilot of Space fighters (he is designing and testing an X-wing when Yoda hauls him off) builds a droid in the shape of that he fears the Most (Darth Vader-though neither of them understand who this being is-Yoda is concerned that Anakin is slipping into the Dark side). Anakin fears his own death.

2. Anakin is realy a show off. he has a princess in every port and his "fiance- the mother of Luke" is in Coruscant. He runs off to join Obi Wan in the 'clone wars' which seems to have a large amount of Jedi involvement.
The Clone Wars continue until the Senate elects a Sith ( although no one knows it) to chancellor (he got to power simply through politics rather than messing with people- the republic was sufficiently corrupt that even the worst could rise to power). After several Jedi masters are killed attempting the assassination of the Sith chancellor The Republic turns against the Jedi asks them to leave Coruscant and the Republic. It is here we find the young Captain Tarkin who has taken Elanil Antillies as a Hostage to stop Alderan from its seperatist course and pretty much betrayed Duke Antillies.

3. Yoda Returned from distant Degobah and is disgusted by that which he finds. The Jedi Citadel (a five mile high (or long) starship) is launched into space and the Jedi prepare to depart into the outer systems. The Sith Chancellor has had his unseen apprentice taking "Royal Hostages" from all these worlds involved in the clone wars as a pledge of their loyalty to the Republic. The chancellors citadel is filled with hostage princesses and Anakin argues with Yoda that they can't just walk away from the republic. Yoda orders his detention to the citadel and the Anakin flees to rescue his beloved who is now carrying his unborn child (luke). Anakin, unable to access the figher bay steals an inspection pod and races through the energy feed tunnels of the citadel and exits out above Coruscant. The small craft abandoned to its landing pad, Anakin 'Halo jumps' from the edge of the planetary atmosphere and lands in a small balcony garden on the chancellors citadel. He is met by other young Jedi who have decided to "overthrow the Sith and save the republic even if the Jedi council will do nothing".
Inside, Anakin first sees Darth Vader and suddenly he remembers his fear from all those years ago. The Sith apprentice is his death. He urges the other Jedi to rescue his beloved and begins a battle with Vader. He retreats into the upper citadel where he takes refuge in the residence of elanil Antillies -soon to be mother (of Leia) where he spends the night and seduces her (or does she seduce him?). The big black security droids (a nasty version of the one that landed on Hoth) cruise the citadel at night searching for Anakin and he is eventually found. He decides to confront Vader. Obi-wan has since fled with Anakin's pregnant Fiance and has escaped to the outer systems.
Killing Vader, Anakin takes his place and puts on the Black armor. He takes Vaders place and to avoid being on the same world as the emperor, departs to spearhead 'the hunting of the Jedi' and 'the building of the Imperial fleet'. Always keeping distant from the Emperor to avoid exposure. As far as every one knows, Anakin died at the hands of Vader. It is here that Anakin-Vader expands the republic (into the Empire) and brings and end to the war and to some extent, slavery (although not out on the Hutt systems such as tattoine because they are still beyond the edge of the Empire-Vader is there in new hope because he has chased Leia and the Deathstar plans there).

This is the lead in to a New Hope. not that nasty "Mommy! I've got something on my shoe!" version.

Palomar · 2005-05-24 11:49:06

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200505 … arsdeal]Oh puh-leeze!

*Gee whiz.

I agree with the spokesperson who pointed out that only 4 of 31 toys are related to "Sith" and that the promo celebrates the entire Star Wars saga.

My husband and I had a burger at BK Sunday evening. His cup showed Luke and Leia on it -- original 1977 photos -- along with their "parents" and E. MacGregor's "Obi-Wan Kenobi."

So yeah, it's not just about "Sith."

BTW, I won a prize from the peel-off sticker on our carton of onion rings (slice of apple pie). The Force was with me.

They are putting some very cute SW toys into the meal packs (including for grown-up kids). Might run up there tonight and get a C3PO or R2D2. :;):

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-24 12:14:20

For every action, there's some jackass who will make an issue of it.

Has anyone seen the ad with Vader on Mustafar (the lava planet), where he opens the elevator door and the Burger King is standing there. They just face off, breathing. :laugh:

clark · 2005-05-24 12:36:38

I don't have a TV. So no.

clark · 2005-05-24 12:40:07

Anyway, what will be interesting for me is to contrast the rise and fall of Anakin set within the context of number 3 and number 6.

The Fall versus the Redemption, which is the whole genesis of Lucas's attempt at telling the prequels. I'll grade him on that.

Palomar · 2005-05-24 12:45:20

Has anyone seen the ad with Vader on Mustafar (the lava planet), where he opens the elevator door and the Burger King is standing there. They just face off, breathing. :laugh:

*A breath-off, huh? Nope, haven't seen it.

Actually the only TV commercial relating to Star Wars I've seen is the Kellogg's Pop Tarts "Lava Berry Explosion" (or whatever) flavor. But I've not watched much TV lately.

The stores sure are crammed with SW stuff. And of course when you go into BK, they've got a life-sized cutout of Darth and a motion-activated chip which begins "breathing." Must admit he's one of my favorite villains.

--Cindy

P.S.: I was 12 when the 1st Star Wars movie came out. It's hard to imagine a world without Star Wars now, in looking back to, say, 1973 and 1975, etc. :-\

-*-

::EDIT:: http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/StarWar … n.asp]Star Wars editorial cartoons

I could have just as easily posted it in the "Political Potpourri" thread, considering...

Palomar · 2005-05-26 11:03:07

http://news.yahoo.com/s/eo/20050526/en_ … /16633]Two UK fans burned in "light saber" mishap

*Sad.

...and lots of robberies with the crooks wearing Darth Vader helmets.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-05-26 14:03:11

...and lots of robberies with the crooks wearing Darth Vader helmets.

I wonder where Cobra commander was and does he have an alibi...hmmm ???

Palomar · 2005-05-27 05:14:09

*There is one issue within the story which doesn't mesh. I've seen the previews of this film, and of course Yoda is still relatively young and strong (he's seen hopping around, brandishing a lightsaber).

In "Return of the Jedi" he's old and fairly decrepit, and says people of his race live to be well into their 900's (he's 980 or thereabouts).

Luke is probably 25 years old at this point. Why/how could Yoda age so rapidly and noticeably in a mere 25 years, considering the longevity of his species?

I'm not one of those movie "nitpick" types (unless a movie is completely absyssmal), btw. But it does seem an "oversight" of sorts. :-\

Eeeek. We were going to see the movie on Monday, but I just remembered it's Memorial Day Weekend. No way I'm going to stand in long, long lines. Will try to see it the first Monday in June. Can't wait. And what a pity Hayden Christensen's handsome face will soon be obscured by a helmet.

--Cindy

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