Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous

Shaun Barrett · 2005-05-18 06:33:19

I wonder if the militant religious zealots in Guantanamo Bay, who have an axe to grind with the Western world and have been taught that lying to infidels is not lying and that killing infidels isn't killing, would normally be regarded in a court of law as credible witnesses? ???
I wouldn't trust any of them any further than I could throw them and I'd be very worried if my life depended on the honest testimony of any of them.

But wait a minute!
Taking these people at their word and reporting their stories of desecration actually does further endanger the lives of our troops on the ground in Iraq by stirring up more hatred, doesn't it?
So, in believing them and publishing the so far unsubstantiated claims they've made (which lends credibility to those claims), we're allowing obviously hostile witnesses to adversely influence the fate of our soldiers and that of hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians. We're knowingly condemning people to death.

And even if the evidence for the desecration is never established, as far as the executioners are concerned, the case is closed. The infidels (and incidentally any Iraqis who believe in democracy), as always, are guilty. The sentence: Execution.

I take this further. Even if the desecration claims were true, the solution is to ensure the military deals with it under wraps by punishing those directly responsible.
Inflaming the situation and causing the unnecessary deaths of people unconnected with the crime, whether our military personnel or civilians, is criminal in itself and is not good journalism.
You already know what I call it. :hm:

Clark:-

Considering Bush's low opinion of FDR, perhaps he hasn't heard the old phrase regarding where the buck stops. :laugh:

Perhaps you haven't heard, that wasn't FDR, it was Harry Truman.

Palomar · 2005-05-18 07:04:48

I wonder if the militant religious zealots in Guantanamo Bay, who have an axe to grind with the Western world and have been taught that lying to infidels is not lying and that killing infidels isn't killing, would normally be regarded in a court of law as credible witnesses? ???
I wouldn't trust any of them any further than I could throw them and I'd be very worried if my life depended on the honest testimony of any of them.
But wait a minute!
Taking these people at their word and reporting their stories of desecration actually does further endanger the lives of our troops on the ground in Iraq by stirring up more hatred, doesn't it?
So, in believing them and publishing the so far unsubstantiated claims they've made (which lends credibility to those claims), we're allowing obviously hostile witnesses to adversely influence the fate of our soldiers and that of hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians. We're knowingly condemning people to death.
And even if the evidence for the desecration is never established, as far as the executioners are concerned, the case is closed. The infidels (and incidentally any Iraqis who believe in democracy), as always, are guilty. The sentence: Execution.
I take this further. Even if the desecration claims were true, the solution is to ensure the military deals with it under wraps by punishing those directly responsible.
Inflaming the situation and causing the unnecessary deaths of people unconnected with the crime, whether our military personnel or civilians, is criminal in itself and is not good journalism.
You already know what I call it. :hm:

*I completely agree with everything you said, Shaun.

Is this to say the allegations can't be true?

No.

But "consider the source" as my sister often says.

We know who "the source" is in these instances, and you've already adequately outlined their likely thinking and motivations.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-18 07:17:23

Blame Newsweek and the story just goes away.
Or not.

Newsweek isn't the problem, just a symptom. The problem is that there are partisans who so hate this Administration (and arguably America in general) that they will flaunt anything that can reflect negatively on this President, or this nation.

There are people right here in America who get excited when things go badly for America. They're the same people who have politically put themselves in a position where they only do well when America does badly. These elements go beyond being opposition in the traditional political sense and are dangerously close to being a cancer. At best I question their intentions.

Other than that, I can't really add much to Shaun's comments except to say that not only have there been reports of US soldiers desecrating Korans but reports of inmates flushing their own copies for the express purpose of clogging the toilets, forcing them to be moved and generally being difficult.

How fortunate that the US Army provides them with a new copy, wouldn't want to impinge on their religious freedom.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1116422284

Palomar · 2005-05-18 07:20:37

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050518/ap_ … de_bush]In other news...

*...that grenade was live.

--Cindy

::EDIT::

CC: except to say that not only have there been reports of US soldiers desecrating Korans but reports of inmates flushing their own copies for the express purpose of clogging the toilets, forcing them to be moved and generally being difficult.

What? Those wonderful people, doing something like that?

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-18 07:53:19

*...that grenade was live.

I have to wonder, what goes through a guy's head when he chucks a grenade at a visiting dignitary, crowd all around and security forces all over. . . and nothing happens?

Of course we know that the Almighty came down and defused that grenade, he and Dubya are tight I hear. :;):

clark · 2005-05-18 11:02:48

D'oh! :laugh:

Learning my US history from Shaun, the Aussie! Dang gummidt!

However, let this Yankee point out to the Aussie that his last post generally demonstrates a rather unique view of the world. It reminds me of a certain Australian bird, flightless. :laugh:

Did you learn to stick your head in the sand from it, or is it a general Australian form of world-outlook? :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-18 11:07:05

It reminds me of a certain Australian bird, flightless.
Did you learn to stick your head in the sand from it, or is it a general Australian form of world-outlook?

Ostriches are native to Africa.

You're totally off your game today clark.

clark · 2005-05-18 11:10:05

What I lack in facts, I more than make up in personality!

You all seem to play fast and loose with your own take on the world, so I thought I might demonstrate how much fun we can have with it. :;):

Come on Cobra, I'm fitting facts to fit objectives. If the President can do it, why not me?

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-18 11:14:25

What I lack in facts, I more than make up in personality!

That you do! :laugh:

Always entertaining, and sometimes right. :;):

clark · 2005-05-18 11:26:44

Praise from mine Fuhrer! [grateful bow]

DanielCook · 2005-05-18 15:44:51

CC - your signature just reminded me of some "news" that's been doing the rounds the last couple of days, with the imminent theatrical release SW Ep III. I don't remember seeing it mentioned before on this thread:

Apparently Revenge of the Sith has some conservatives / Republicans hot under the collar, as they say it is a thinly veiled attack on the Bush Administration. (If you're not with me, you're are my enemy; Disguised motives dragging the Republic into war etc.)

Frankly, I find that to be a fairly amusing take. Almost like the "South Park Conservatives" bit that was floating around a couple of weeks ago ... really people.

Palomar · 2005-05-18 17:36:29

*...that grenade was live.
I have to wonder, what goes through a guy's head when he chucks a grenade at a visiting dignitary, crowd all around and security forces all over. . . and nothing happens?

*Yeah. How very anti-climactic. :-\ If he or she is working within a network, would s/he get bumped off for it having been a dud grenade?

Of course we know that the Almighty came down and defused that grenade, he and Dubya are tight I hear. :;):

Some people will and do believe that, as I'm sure we both know. It'll certainly bolster their faith in Bush's faith.

--Cindy

::EDIT::

Daniel: Apparently Revenge of the Sith has some conservatives / Republicans hot under the collar, as they say it is a thinly veiled attack on the Bush Administration. (If you're not with me, you're are my enemy; Disguised motives dragging the Republic into war etc.)

Now if only all male Republicans were as good looking as Hayden Christensen.

BWhite · 2005-05-18 20:48:58

Posting from ISDC. New Marsians are encouraged to ask me for a beer. If you are at ISDC.

Anyway, my faith in American values is on the http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7899754/]upswing.

God Bless America.

The America forged by the values and principles of Thomas Jefferson, the Enlightenment and Abraham Lincoln. Values being trampled upon at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

Like I said.

God Bless America. The =REAL= America.

clark · 2005-05-19 05:29:05

The values of America evidenced by Thomas Jefferson, The Enlightenment and Abraham Lincoln?

You mean sleeping with slaves, arguing about the inane, and codifying the supremacy of the Federal Government over the self-determination of it's member states through the application of force?

Values being trampled on at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo? You mean like terroism and the Koran? Those values?

I'm an equal opportunity offender.

Palomar · 2005-05-19 05:29:18

Posting from ISDC. New Marsians are encouraged to ask me for a beer. If you are at ISDC.
Anyway, my faith in American values is on the http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7899754/]upswing.
God Bless America.
The America forged by the values and principles of Thomas Jefferson, the Enlightenment and Abraham Lincoln. Values being trampled upon at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.
Like I said.
God Bless America. The =REAL= America.

*America is dead.

I'm hoping for a phoenix/rebirth, however.

But it all starts at home. Hopefully we can remake a better society wherein schools WON'T need metal detectors and 7-year-olds WON'T tote pistols to school.

It's all about the will of the people. And I'm skeptical about that will (considering the high levels of personal irresponsibility in general), but hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-05-19 05:33:15

*America is dead.

Yeah, I heard it asphyxiated on an un-popped kernel of extra-buttered popcorn while watching the latest fo-reality fare where rich white kids from a private school were thrown into an inner city public school and mixed into opposing teams.

Survivor was really scraping the bottom of the barrel that year.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-19 06:51:41

God Bless America. The =REAL= America.

Why is it whenever partisans start talking about the real this or that I get nervous? ???

Presumably the real America is not the voting America then? And you call yourself a Democrat!

*America is dead.
I'm hoping for a phoenix/rebirth, however.

It isn't dead, in order for something to die it has to have at one point lived. It has to have existed. We all have this idealized vision of what America was or should be and for all their differences they have one thing in common. Complete unsubstantiated fantasy. America has always and continues to do good and noble things as well as damn distasteful things. On balance we're still well within the "good" end of that scale.

But hell, I'm up for some phoenix-like metamorphosing. A little trial-by-fire is good for a people.

Flame on.

It's all about the will of the people. And I'm skeptical about that will (considering the high levels of personal irresponsibility in general), but hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

More specifically, the three elements of vision, leadership to inspire the people, and the will of the people to carry out that vision once inspired. Not a very "democratic" way of looking at things, but accurate. The "will of the people" is largely a function of how well leaders sell their vision rather than a driving force. All progress comes from individuals, "the people" are just along for the ride.

Not that I'm a real fascist. :;):

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1116507163

clark · 2005-05-19 11:32:19

More specifically, the three elements of vision, leadership to inspire the people, and the will of the people to carry out that vision once inspired.

Apparently being able to accurately count is not a requiste though.

Three elements of vision: Leadership (1), will of the people to follow (2)...

Of course I shouldn't fault you, ever since 2000, Republicans have demonstrated that they only worry about counting to 5 out of 9.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-19 11:53:21

Three elements of vision: Leadership (1), will of the people to follow (2)...

Three elements of:
1) Vision
2) Leadership
3) Will of the people to follow

Shoulda just made a list I guess.

clark · 2005-05-19 11:59:21

Leadership is the ability to articulate the inarticulate and disparate desires expressed by the will of the people into a coherent vision by which a concensus can be reached, and individuals can then work together towards achieving a common good.

That *is* the essence of a democracy.

Even if you can't articulate it, mine fuhrer.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-19 12:25:47

Leadership is the ability to articulate the inarticulate and disparate desires expressed by the will of the people into a coherent vision by which a concensus can be reached, and individuals can then work together towards achieving a common good.
That *is* the essence of a democracy.

A very similar thing was said about fascism actually. I'll have to look up the exact quote later today.

Even if you can't articulate it, mine fuhrer.

Hey, I'm running on three hours of sleep and a stale donut here, it's a wonder I can convey a thought at all. :laugh:

clark · 2005-05-19 12:36:49

Fascism is co-opting the disparate views of many individuals with a single viewpoint, not neccessarily (and usually not) shared by the overall population, for the express interest of pursuing a predetermined individual/minority good.

This is generally why Fascism cannot survive beyond the individual personality that perpetuates the idea that shackles the group together, and why in a democracy, the shared goals cause leaders to be generated.

Cult of Personality versus Cult of Ideals. [shrug]

And whose fault was it that you went and saw Star Wars during the middle of the week? :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-19 13:00:53

Fascism is co-opting the disparate views of many individuals with a single viewpoint, not neccessarily (and usually not) shared by the overall population, for the express interest of pursuing a predetermined individual/minority good.

The same is often true of democracy, though in a more convoluted way. In both cases individuals define specific goals and through espousing them gain power through the people and then generally do not carry out the things which they promised to do. In a democracy you just have more people doing it and the turnover is quicker.

Take Social Security as a random example, years ago President Clinton was on a big "reform SocSec" kick and floating a proposal that surprisingly shared many base level similarities with the equally nebulous Bush proposal. His Party backed him, the opposition opposed. Then for years no one much cared until Bush made the same call, now the sides are switched.

It's not about issues so much as personalities and loyalties. Fascism or democracy, it's all just power-wielding individuals telling the masses what they want to hear in order to gain more power for whatever ends. Just that in a democracy one must pay greater lip-service to the fickle mood of the people giving the illusion on the surface that they are directing the course.

Herding instinct essentially. Or pack hunting, depending on the circumstances.

And whose fault was it that you went and saw Star Wars during the middle of the week?

It's all Bush's fault, obviously.

clark · 2005-05-19 13:13:40

Bah! You're describing demagoguery, which can apply to any form of government.

That's more a result and problem from a tightly controlled information system and uneducated populations.

Kind of like America and Islam. :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-19 13:30:21

Bah! You're describing demagoguery, which can apply to any form of government.

Can, and does. A reality that must be accepted with discussions of this sort. Ideally in a democracy an informed electorate decides collectively what wise policies they want and elect one of their own to enact it just as ideally under fascism a wise and benevolent dictator leads the people to peace and prosperity in a manner they all find totally acceptable and right. Reality is messy, the addition of real people screws up the entire equation, as you know.

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